oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Ok. There was probably, almost definatley, ARC Troopers in the final EP2 battle. There was never a Battle Droid with a rocket launcher though, on screen or in the EU. Since there are so many other inaccuracies in BF there isn't much point in arguing about the DT without mentioning the other faults, so I guess it's just down to personal opinion. If you don't like the Dark Trooper, don't use him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 But there were no Clone Troopers with missile launchers. There were ARC Troopers with missile launchers, and were in the battles (just not in the movies). So what's the problem with ARC Troopers? Sure, it's pushing the "accuracy," but you have to have missile launchers. Dark Troopers are both inaccurate and unneeded. Says you. ; ) If you're going by the movies, then neither belong in the game. If you're going by some other criteria, sure. You don't have to have missile launchers. You could have grenade launchers, explosive cannons, more vehicles, emplaced guns, or make the other weapons more effective against vehicles. Lots of ways to balance it if you wanted to keep traditional FPS style rocket launchers out of it. Also granted they didn't need to call them ARC Troopers and give them the ARC Trooper's cape. They could have just been another Clone trooper with a rocket launcher. Instead they made them a unit that wasn't in the movie, so the "it wasn't in the movies" argument would rule out this unit as is. As far as ARC Troopers in general, I got the feeling from the Clone Wars cartoons (where they were introduced) that they were in use in the years between Episode II and III. I got the impression that they were "new" at the time and not something they'd already used at Geonosis. Ie: How can you have the "elite" already considering this is the first battle the Clone Troopers have ever had with an actual enemy? Dark Troopers may be "unneeded" in your view but they are certainly balanced well with everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Actually, the official Star Wars site Databank confirms the precense of Battle Droids with BAW E-60R Missile Launchers. http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/e60rmissilelauncher/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 Actually, the official Star Wars site Databank confirms the precense of Battle Droids with BAW E-60R Missile Launchers. http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/e60rmissilelauncher/ But it doesn't confirm their presence in any of the films (which the game is based on, so it's kinda important), so they're pretty much the same as the Dark Trooper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Expanded Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Anything not shown in the films is considered EU. The ARC Troopers are EU, but we know they were there. We know that Dark Troopers were not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 We know that Dark Troopers were not there. It's the same with the Battle Droid Rocket Launcher, it says: "The effectiveness of the clone forces' armored vehicles at the Battle of Geonosis was enough to give the strategists of the Confederacy pause. Their larger tanksmashing vehicles became targets for Republic gunships, and many of their hailfire droids were destroyed before they could even sight the approaching walkers." The E-60R Missile Launcher was developed after the films, as was the Dark Trooper. So, once again, the point I'm making is that there are too many inaccuracies in BF to mention one without the other(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 But your argument doesn't make sense. The game needs missile launchers for taking down vehicles. Even if it's inaccurate. The game does not need a guy with a jetpack and shotgun. It'd be better to have something accurate. BTW, in the Star Wars Episode I Phantom Menace game there were a couple Battle Droids with missile launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 In the Star Wars Episode I Phantom Menace game there were a couple Battle Droids with missile launchers. But your argument doesn't make sense. The game needs missile launchers for taking down vehicles. Even if it's inaccurate. The game does not need a guy with a jetpack and shotgun. It'd be better to have something accurate. Yes, in the PM game. I think we've already established that SW games have inaccuraces And Kurgan has already said that there is more than one way to take down a vehicle, so Rocket Launchers aren't 'needed'. There are lots of things the game doesn't need (including a guy with a jetpack and shotgun, I'll admit), so it's pointless to just complain about one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 Anything not shown in the films is considered EU. The ARC Troopers are EU, but we know they were there. We know that Dark Troopers were not there. Well technically the official Radio Dramas, novelisations of the films and film screenplays are considered canon just below the films themselves (but above the rest of the official materials, ie: the EU). So if you can find an instance of rocket launcher users in the battle in those materials, it's a stronger point. Games are considered EU, not on the same level as the film or filmic official materials. Most people would agree that "game mechanics" are either non-canon or on the bottom rung of the EU ladder (ie: the stats of weapons and things, how they work, how much damage it takes to destroy something, Multiplayer stuff). About the only thing "useful" from games for continuity purposes is the general outline of Single Player stories, but even these are suspect because they generally conflict with the higher canon, in order to involve the player. Games with multiple paths and configurable characters, even moreso in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I've thought before that all missile launcher units could have some kind of heavy blaster rifle or something, but a laser blast can't home. You need homing missiles for speeder bikes, ships, and any other fast-moving vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 So put "homing missiles" on vehicles or emplaced guns. Or make certain blaster weapons "instant hit" (no need for homing, a scope or lock-on will do). I'm sure the SWBF team did it this way simple because rocket launchers are an easy, FPS typical solution. That it has some precedent in the EU (in other words everyone but movie purists would accept them) is a nice side benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 You could just a laser cannon with a badass rate of fire to take down the faster stuff and some sort of flak cannon for air units. But this is getting WAY off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 But then there's the issue of balancing it with infantry. If I take a BlasTech T-21 Light Repeating Blaster Rifle (blaster with a "badass" rate of fire and heavy damage), it's going to tear enemy infantry to shreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 That's the interesting thing about the idea of a "Star Wars Realism Mod" (please don't take offense at this, I realize its one person's conception of what "realism" entails and that could vary with the person).... The movies are one thing. The EU is another (though it's connected, they're not totally different alternate universes, there's just a heirarchy of canon). The games are EU. So making them "realistic" is really a way of saying "changing them from being more like the EU to being more like the movies, as I understand them." Because if something is true to the EU (which it is by definition), how can it not be "realistic?" I mean, is "Heir to the Empire" realistic? Or not? Sorry if this is getting off topic, but I was just thinking about this very thing as I was replying above. Again, no offense is intended (make whatever mods you wish), it's a philosophical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by oldmanfunk You could just a laser cannon with a badass rate of fire to take down the faster stuff and some sort of flak cannon for air units. But this is getting WAY off-topic. Like the clone rifles did to the droids in the movie? "Game Balance" implies that you're willing to change movie conventions in order to make the game more fun/challenging. If we're going strictly by movie realism, some sides are just going to be stronger than others. I'm sure you realize that, I'm just pointing it out for others to see. Let's face it, most of the battles won by the good guys in the movies were due to strings of coincidences, incompetence on the part of the bad guys or just plain luck (or "the Will of the Force" if you wish). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfunk Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 But then there's the issue of balancing it with infantry. If I take a BlasTech T-21 Light Repeating Blaster Rifle (blaster with a "badass" rate of fire and heavy damage), it's going to tear enemy infantry to shreds. There are ways to work around that, it's been done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 But the thing is, ARC Troopers were active in the Clone Wars. Weren't some supposed to be some on Geonosis, but were never shown? Besides, they have to be in the game because they're the missile launcher unit. How would you destroy CIS vehicles without a missile launcher? Dark Troopers are not needed, strategy-wise. Dark Troopers were not active at all during the Galactic Civil War. And in Dark Forces, the Dark Troopers are nothing like the Dark Troopers in Battlefront. People aren't complaining about Jet Troopers because, well, they're just a regular Clone Trooper with a jetpack stuck on him. It's nothing fancy, plus, I've heard there's a new Clone Trooper with a jetpack in Episode III anyway. Not to mention the Dark Trooper replaced the Imperial Officer, which actually made sense to have. I see people posting about the Imperial Officer fairly often... once saying the class was in the Beta. Anyone actually use this class that can tell me something about it, because a it sounds fairly 'weak'. Imperial Officer sounds to me like a guy without armour or weapons, directing the action and not really fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Something about splitting the duties up. Basically remove the "special" class, and take some of the duties of the Pilot and some of the Scout and give them to the Officer or Spy, I think. Something like that. I'm sure if TK ever gets to mod his "Star Wars Realism" mod for this game you'll see something like that. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=[GKZ]=Blazin Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 please forgive me for giving this argument that has already gone on for way too long already any more wood to burn but, What about the wookie class for the rebels. their almost as usless as the DT is in my opinion. and why are the rebels and the CIS the only factions without a jetpack equiped player class??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 It's spelled Wookiee, not Wookie, and I would also like to see the Wookiee Smuggler replaced with someone more true to the movies. The only Wookiee seen in the movies is Chewie, and there is nothing to lead us to believe Wookiees were ever teamed with the Rebels in the movies. "Would someone get this big walking carpet out of my way?" ~ Princess Leia Yeah, the Alliance must not be that big on Wookiees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cushy Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 now that the game is out I dont have a problem with dark troopers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 It's spelled Wookiee, not Wookie, and I would also like to see the Wookiee Smuggler replaced with someone more true to the movies. The only Wookiee seen in the movies is Chewie, and there is nothing to lead us to believe Wookiees were ever teamed with the Rebels in the movies. "Would someone get this big walking carpet out of my way?" ~ Princess Leia Yeah, the Alliance must not be that big on Wookiees. Somewhat off-topic (sorry) but didn't think it warranted a seperate thread: What is the advantage of the Wookiee? Can they take more damage than the average trooper? I haven't had much success as this class, so I pretty much stay away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK-8252 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 It's spelled Wookiee! The Wookiee Smuggler has more health than other units, which is probably his biggest advantage. The grenade launcher is good for scattering enemy troops, and the bowcaster when charged up can be great in close-range. The only real use for the time bombs is for destroying the Endor Shield Bunker, but that's really it. The Wookiee Smuggler isn't for everyone. I don't really use him, but it can be decent in certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Black Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Originally posted by TK-8252 It's spelled Wookiee! The Wookiee Smuggler has more health than other units, which is probably his biggest advantage. The grenade launcher is good for scattering enemy troops, and the bowcaster when charged up can be great in close-range. The only real use for the time bombs is for destroying the Endor Shield Bunker, but that's really it. The Wookiee Smuggler isn't for everyone. I don't really use him, but it can be decent in certain situations. Sorry, I swear I put that other "e" in there, but my fingers must have decided they were too lazy. I edited the post to read Wookiee Well, I'll definitely give the Wookiee a couple more tries - the useless manual didn't tell me I could charge the bowcaster. It would be nice if the time bombs could have a timer mode or a trigger mode (where you could lay it like C4 and remotely detinate). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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