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[Admiral Vostok]

That's exactly how I felt. I suppose the Atlanteans were probably balanced properly - I mean, it is Ensemble - but they just had so much cool stuff that the other didn't, it didn't seem right. multiple-use God Powers, uber-Workers, not having to return resources to anywhere, cool uniqueness like chrono-shift and lust... Atlanteans were so different they didn't feel right.

 

That's just me though. And Luke's Dad apparently.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I was awaiting a regular ex-pac where they improve existing civ and add another one.

 

Though I always saw the Atlanteans as ES "lower the micro" civ.

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

I was awaiting a regular ex-pac where they improve existing civ and add another one.

It's true that's what most RTSs do. However I think Ensemble probably felt bound by the fact that the AoK Expansion added new civs, so although AoM was fundamentally different it would be seen as a bit strange if they didn't add extra civs to AoM too.

[DK_Viceroy]

Yes but remeber their disadvanatges. they get less pop unless they aggresivley capture TC's that also applies to favour which they get a slower trickle of. They did put a few new techs into the other civs but not much just enough to balance them out. Of course the atlanteans were diferent where you expecting some sort of super ultra hyper giga generic tosh?

[Admiral Vostok]

No, of course the Atlanteans should be different, but I think they're too different. The existing three civs are normal but some of the Atlantean stuff is just weird and doesn't seem to fit in well.

 

Maybe it's just me.

[lukeiamyourdad]

That and I always pictured the Atlanteans to be more Greek.

 

They should have made an Inca, Aztec or Maya civ. Would have been much more fun.

[Admiral Vostok]

I agree. A real-world civ would have been much better than a completely mythical one. Though it would have been harder to fit New World civilisations into the storyline...

[DK_Viceroy]

Atlantis Is about as mythical as the sky is blue.

 

Atlantis is thought to be the Greek Island of Santorini Indeed most Archelogical Evidence points to that.

 

Vostok define about the Atlantean civ does not fit in well and i shall gladly come up with a way to explain.

[Admiral Vostok]

Viceroy, there's no point arguing with me on this one, the developers themselves have admitted the Atlanteans are vastly different. I can't get the exact quote for you because the interview with Bruce Shelley has been removed from Gamespy, but essentially in the interview he said that one thing they were unhappy about with the original AoM was that they didn't include enough things that made each sub-civ vastly different to play - for example one Greek sub-civ is pretty much the same as the next, with only minor differences. They made up for this with the Atlanteans, as each Atlantean sub-civ has fundamental elements that make them very different - mostly Lush, Chronoshift and those Sky Passages or whatever they're called. So this idea that they are vastly different was done on purpose, but I'm not sure I like it.

[DK_Viceroy]

The atlanteans do kinda need stuff like that though unless they capture pretty much every town center on the map they don't get as much pop as other civs or as much favour.

[Admiral Vostok]

Yeah, I'm not really saying they're unbalanced, just that some of their bonuses seem weirder than existing civs bonuses.

[DK_Viceroy]

hmm true but a lot of these bonuses i don't think you quite understand or are overestimating them, I mean how many people would build something in the middle of their enemies base without levelling the thing first, so lush really isn't that big a thing it's akin to the gungans and their healing buildings. Time shift is handy and it's alike to your idea of the republic bheing able to move their buidling round {see vostok you cam up with that idea and now using it would seem like a rip off } and sky passages while cool don't really seem to have that much of a point realistically yeah it's cool and all to move your units all around the map you've still got to build em and they are vulnerable to destruction and require quite a bit of micro, expecially since i'm not sure what happens if they're all destroyed and you forgot to ungarrison your army.

 

Weirder means they stand out more because they're newer. They do have their disadvantages remeber their citizens are slower take more pop and cost a lot more their heroes thing is neat and can be useful but sometimes it's the wrong thing to do when numbers count as much as quality.

[Admiral Vostok]

Your whole post was about how balanced they are, when I just said I don't consider them unbalanced. This is the most relevant comment to what I'm saying:

Weirder means they stand out more because they're newer.

 

As for me ripping-off time shift, my movable buildings work in quite a different way. Besides, movable buildings was hardly Ensemble's idea. Blizzard had it way back in StarCraft, and if you want to go even further back I seem to remember a Westwood title where you could pack up and move buildings. Many other titles have movable buildings too, in fact Dawn Of War has it in pretty much the same format as AoM. By the time that many people have done it it's no longer a rip-off. If you want to analyse things further, time-shift, lush and sky passages all come from Starcraft: lush = creep and sky passages = nydas canals.

[DK_Viceroy]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

 

By the time that many people have done it it's no longer a rip-off.

 

Thank you for that vindication vostok so hence we should have the commanders idea in since it's subtly different yes i'll admit at face value it seems like a rip off but in depth it isn't really.

 

I think your reffering to one building and one vehicle in westwoods.

 

MCV that actually had to be moved and was very slow not that special really

 

Fist Of NOD now this is a curious idea a portable war factory.

 

I've never actually played Starcraft so I can't exactly comment on those but the developers did say they wanted to make the atlanteans different and most other civs don't have these so their not bad ideas. Many people around the time of atlantis would have though Atlantis very weird since they didn't have a king and when Atlantis was wiped out by the Volcanis Explosion { yes explosion not eruption too violent to be called an ereuption } their island sank below the waves and rose again { huge tidal wave really } and they took down another power with them Minoan Crete. they were the classical greek version of a cross between China And America

[Admiral Vostok]

Viceroy, you do know Atlantis is a myth, right? It's never been proven to have existed.

 

Anyway, back to the issue, I suppose by that argument the Generals/Commanders idea could be included. However I don't think it's what a Star Wars RTS needs. It can certainly be justified in the context of Star Wars, but Star Wars doesn't necessarily immediately lend itself to the Generals/Commanders model. What I mean is it would be unnecessarily similar to Generals when there isn't really any good reason for it to be so.

 

So include it in your design if you want. I'm not including it in mine, and I personally can't see LA including it either, but that's just my opinion.

 

As for StarCraft, I highly recommend it. Not only is it generally thought to be the best RTS ever created, but if you're such a fan of WarCraft III you should absolutely love it.

[lukeiamyourdad]

You should love it more. StarCraft is sooo muc better...

[DK_Viceroy]

I wouldn't say MYTH i'd say a yet to be proved theory I however think it's true and alot of other people do but if you do check about the greek Island of Santorini they do mention that The Island is thought to be the lost island of atlantis since Atlantis is oft spoken of as an island in an island which santorini was before the Island explosion. The ruins on Santorini were highly advanced and all of the evidence is complemnted by the fact that they have discovered ruins under the water in the caldera So i think Atlantis was real and was on the Island of Santorini.

 

I thought the commanders idea would add a bit more diversity since we're only having 4 major civs especially since i think without it yeah it could be a great RTS but it would just be remeber as another old RTS that brings nothing new in or offers a new slant on a gamplay idea.

 

I thought the Pre Generals C&C Games were thought to be the best RTS games.

[lukeiamyourdad]

They've also discovered ruins underwater of an ancien civilization in the Caribbeans. It doesn't mean it's Atlantis.

 

And StarCraft is thought to be one of the best RTS ever. It's the most POPULAR RTS of all-time. It's Korea's national sport.

[DK_Viceroy]

http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/atlantis.htm

 

That supports Santorini as being the lost island of atlantis.

 

Beleive me I take Classical Civilisations which is the study of anceint mythology I ACTUALY know what i'm talking about.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, Atlantis may have existed. But as I said it is not proven. At any rate, Atlanteans would have been Greek and worshipped the same Gods.

 

StarCraft is the best selling RTS of all time, and all of the "best RTSs of all time" lists I've seen have StarCraft at the top, and most "best games of all time" lists also include StarCraft. I highly recommend it, Viceroy, it's still sold in stores (remarkable for such an old game), and is pretty cheap now, so well worth the money.

 

without it yeah it could be a great RTS but it would just be remeber as another old RTS that brings nothing new in or offers a new slant on a gamplay idea.

But if the Commanders idea follows the Generals idea exactly, it will still not bring anything new in or offer a new slant on a gameplay idea either. The Commanders idea needs to be tweaked so it doesn't resemble the Generals idea so much for it to work well. As for only having four civs, so does WarCraft 3, and you love that game. Four civs is a pretty decent number of unique civs, I don't think many are going to complain it only has four civs.

[DK_Viceroy]

I wouldn't Use LOVE as much as i'd use LOATHE but by the by.

 

there are 39 Game stores in the area where i live and a grand total of Zero Nadda Zip Zilch and don't forget NONE have Starcraft or any Starcraft paraphenlia, that propably explains why.

 

I think in AoM's case the Atlanteans worshipping a different set of gods make sense even during classicla greek times There were several Cults of the Titans and Some of the titans were actually worshipped as gods Particularly Gaia and Rheia as well as Hyperion and Helios, and those who worshipped Demeter and Persephone would also Offer up to Hecate. Leto however sounds remarkable like Eris or Discord and what she is goddess of is implied in the name and because of this she was rarely worshipped, well at least by the games definition. Leto however was worshipped on the Isle of Delos i beleive if I rember correctly. There was some Oranos worship and Sveral Cults of Kronos. Prometheus was Especially Honoured.

 

The idea of the Atlanteans abandoning the Greek gods is all Fluent with Classical Greek Literature when Zeus did not punish a hero { I forget which i suspect it's Odyseus or Jason } In which Zeus said that if he punished every mortal who went against him he would run out of followers and when mortals stooped worshipping the gods the gods would cease to be.

 

Remember God Worship was largely due to location as islands had Patron Gods where one god was worshipped above all other as well as time of year where one god was worshipped above all others. An Example of time of year was the Greater Dionysiac or a modern version A drunken Film Festival With Orgy On the side. where the people would watch greek theater have a grand procession and Drink wione in order to allow themselves to be possessed by Dionysus in Worship to him.

 

A Timely Example would be the Olympics. The Olympics were held in honour of Olympian Zeus at Olympia where offerings were offered up in form of the sporting acheivements and the many great offerings awarded as prizes.

 

Anyway back to the main topic. It is different from the genrals system remeber we added in a Second In command where you picked from another set and depending on your commanding officer would get a certain cocktail of bonuses and techs compared to the same with another.

[Admiral Vostok]

Okay, I'll accept all that, and I'm not even sure what the original point was with the Atlantean debate, but let's be rid of it.

 

As for StarCraft, I find it rather odd that none of the stores near you carry it. Very odd indeed. At any rate, it's available from online stores like Amazon.com and the like. And there's no need to get angry, I'm just recommending a game to you. I don't think you'll be disappointed with StarCraft in any way.

 

And I was under the distinct impression you were a WarCraft III fan. Perhaps I'm getting you confused with someone else if you say you loathe it.

[DK_Viceroy]

Looks like i Can actually make you back down for a change with my knowledge of Ancient Greece

 

:D

 

the Point you tried to make was the Atlanteans would have worshipped greek gods but since the greeks worshipped some Egyptian gods and Egyptians worshipped some Greek gods that doesn't make for a definitive staement.

 

Some Bits about it i love some bits I loathe. Mainly i'm begiining to Loathe it because of Crappy Battlenet and the inability to cancel entering a game so you wait for half an hour before it tells you what you already know, the fact that the games started or been cancelled.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well, I don't claim to be any master of Ancient Civilisation knowledge, just Star Wars knowledge.

[DK_Viceroy]

Both of those honours lie with yours truly.

 

I did actually see Starcraft in one of those stores but when i walked in someone walked out with that game in their pocket. I was pretty shocked to find that out of 39 shops all of them were doing a booming buisness and their all in a 2 KM radius