Hiroki Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Geez, don't get worked up over a one out of place letter. You're lucky said your name that properly. So JubatUs...what problems do you have with Christianity? What has it ever done to you? Most true Christians are very good people. Unfortunately, we get blamed for the crap that people who "Hide behind the cross" do. Understandable, but also regrettable... You seem very bitter towards it, none the less. And it pains me to see somebody so against such a noble religion. I do not know if you are aware of this, Jubatus, but there are going to be bad people in ALL religions. And there are bad Atheists as well. That does not mean all of them, or even most of them are bad. No, I do not hate Atheists, and I do not go around trying to convert them. However...I do ask that they show respect for others beliefs, as they often request. And I suggest you do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Hiroki Geez, don't get worked up over a one out of place letter. You're lucky said your name that properly. So JubatUs...what problems do you have with Christianity? What has it ever done to you? Most true Christians are very good people. Unfortunately, we get blamed for the crap that people who "Hide behind the cross" do. Understandable, but also regrettable... You seem very bitter towards it, none the less. And it pains me to see somebody so against such a noble religion. I do not know if you are aware of this, Jubatus, but there are going to be bad people in ALL religions. And there are bad Atheists as well. That does not mean all of them, or even most of them are bad. No, I do not hate Atheists, and I do not go around trying to convert them. However...I do ask that they show respect for others beliefs, as they often request. And I suggest you do so. You're way off target. I don't distinguish between "good" and "bad" religious people, I loathe all religion and religious people, because religion is a symptom of self-induced ignorance spawned by fear of death and oblivion. And I will not show respect for your belief because that very belief is truly offensive to me albeit being merely the symptom. If you want clarification then dig into some of the older threads in here, the one of main importance being "Why is it OK to criticise Christianity?" or something to that effect. I will not discuss this further with you, because you are a Christian and it will only be me banging my head against your wall of religious dogma; another issue about which you can also find out by checking out a newer thread here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Well Jubatus, if you really feel debates about religion end up in one "dogma" or school of thought head banging another, why do you criticize any religion when you know your words will fall on deaf ears? No offense intended, but it seems you're just as dogmatic about your point of view as the people you claim to despise. Religion is a part of humanity, a part of our civilization and our identity, and just like any aspect of humam it has it's good aspects and bad aspects. So why try to bash it? You think religion has no place in an argument? Well if it affects someone's decision making process it certainly does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Jubatus You're way off target. I don't distinguish between "good" and "bad" religious people, I loathe all religion and religious people, because religion is a symptom of self-induced ignorance spawned by fear of death and oblivion. And I will not show respect for your belief because that very belief is truly offensive to me albeit being merely the symptom. If you want clarification then dig into some of the older threads in here, the one of main importance being "Why is it OK to criticise Christianity?" or something to that effect. I will not discuss this further with you, because you are a Christian and it will only be me banging my head against your wall of religious dogma; another issue about which you can also find out by checking out a newer thread here So I, and the BILLIONS of other religious people, are all afraid of the world? Hmm, how about because we believe that there is an afterlife. AFTERLIFE. Please note the two keywords, After, and Life. That means after we're dead. I don't see how being afraid DURING our life induces us to believe in an AFTERlife. Unless I'm reading you all wrong. Are you afraid of religion? Does it scare you for some reason? I'm asking this as a serious question since you "loathe" every single religious person in the world and feel the need to catigorize them as childish and immature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 people fear what they do not know, thus they created an afterlife to calm themselves. I'm just guessing that's what he is saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast So I, and the BILLIONS of other religious people, are all afraid of the world? Hmm, how about because we believe that there is an afterlife. AFTERLIFE. Please note the two keywords, After, and Life. That means after we're dead. I don't see how being afraid DURING our life induces us to believe in an AFTERlife. He means that billions of people are scared of dying, thus they create an afterlife to ease thier mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 And why does this bother him? He can not prove, or disprove an Afterlife. And let me tell you something, getting all worked up over religion like that, will only stress your body out, and help you to find out if its true or not all the sooner. Also, whats it to you? What does it matter if we believe there is an afterlife or not? If there is, and we die, we'll be gone from the earth, our bodies will be dead. If there isn't, we'll be gone from the earth, and our bodies will be dead...see my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Hiroki And why does this bother him? He can not prove, or disprove an Afterlife. And let me tell you something, getting all worked up over religion like that, will only stress your body out, and help you to find out if its true or not all the sooner. Personally, I'm agnostic, so I have the same sentiments. Also, whats it to you? What does it matter if we believe there is an afterlife or not? If there is, and we die, we'll be gone from the earth, our bodies will be dead. If there isn't, we'll be gone from the earth, and our bodies will be dead...see my point? Well, some religious fanatics have been known to kill themselves and others to get into a afterlife... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Yes...fanatics. Note the word Fanatics. Fanatics are an extremely small part of the religious community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Too bad they make more noise then the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reborn Outcast Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad Too bad they make more noise then the majority. That's just the way it is with todays media. Everything violent and horrible makes the front page even though it may not represent the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Reborn Outcast That's just the way it is with todays media. Everything violent and horrible makes the front page even though it may not represent the majority. not just today's media, but all media since the beginning of secular media. *edit* DAMN YOUR BRAIN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by InsaneSith not just today's media, but all media since the beginning of circular media. Circular? Or do you mean Secular Media? Unless you're trying to imply that the media is right because they says so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Originally posted by Tyrion Circular? Or do you mean Secular Media? Unless you're trying to imply that the media is right because they says so... bah, secular. where is my head today? ;_; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by JediLiberator Well Jubatus, if you really feel debates about religion end up in one "dogma" or school of thought head banging another, why do you criticize any religion when you know your words will fall on deaf ears? No offense intended, but it seems you're just as dogmatic about your point of view as the people you claim to despise. Read more carefully; I didn't speak of two opposing dogmata. And if my views seem dogmatic to you I suggest you dig into the 2 threads to which I referred Hiroki. Originally posted by JediLiberator Religion is a part of humanity, a part of our civilization and our identity, and just like any aspect of humam it has it's good aspects and bad aspects. So why try to bash it? You think religion has no place in an argument? Well if it affects someone's decision making process it certainly does! In the overall picture there is no "good" attributed to religion that cannot be without religion. Religion has a place in many arguments, as do religious dogma as a topic, but religious dogma is not a rational way of argument, it's just saying "so it is written, so shall it be!" Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Unless I'm reading you all wrong. You are, as InsaneSith and Tyrion has pointed out. Originally posted by Reborn Outcast Are you afraid of religion? Does it scare you for some reason? I'm asking this as a serious question since you "loathe" every single religious person in the world and feel the need to catigorize them as childish and immature No. Originally posted by Hiroki Also, whats it to you? What does it matter if we believe there is an afterlife or not? If there is, and we die, we'll be gone from the earth, our bodies will be dead. If there isn't, we'll be gone from the earth, and our bodies will be dead...see my point? Your belief in an afterlife is but an aspect of the crime of religion. Did you at all read the 2 threads to which I referred you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Well, I just finished scanning through the thread you gave me. Only so much of your babble I can take...but from I can tell, you dislike religion, because we do not like to debate, and argue "rationally", and because of our faith, in things that are often not proven by science? Is that what you're getting at? I'll let you tell me if I've got what your problem is pegged down before I comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by Hiroki Well, I just finished scanning through the thread you gave me. Only so much of your babble I can take...but from I can tell, you dislike religion, because we do not like to debate, and argue "rationally", and because of our faith, in things that are often not proven by science? Is that what you're getting at? I'll let you tell me if I've got what your problem is pegged down before I comment. Whether you like to debate or not does not apply, the problem is that discussing your religion you cannot by definition argue rationally, because far the most of your points are dogmatic of origin. That your faith cannot be proven by science is only looking at the top of the iceberg, and since it seems you only skimmed through one of the two threads to which I directed you, I'll dig the older one up for you: Behold! And calling my writing babble is only more overtly revealing yourself as a less than average skilled reader. Please, work on it so I won't have to repeat and elaborate every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Babble as in useless ramble that I do not care to hear. Anyway, that thing is a friggen 8 pages long. I'll comment eventually when I find the time to read through that whole thing. I'm not keen on debating my faith, so you'll forgive me if I'm not too zealous ( Hah! ) in arguing with you here. If you really want to fight with somebody though, I'll bring a friend over for you to duke it out with untill I get off my lazy bum and read that whole thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by Hiroki Babble as in useless ramble that I do not care to hear. Since that is how you regard my writing there really is even less point in us discussing, no? Originally posted by Hiroki If you really want to fight with somebody though..... My intention with debating has never been to fight, but to enlighten and to be enlightened. But bring your friend; hopefully he will prove of a more rational breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 My intention with debating has never been to fight, but to enlighten and to be enlightened. But bring your friend; hopefully he will prove of a more rational breed. The one thing that bugs me about saying things like this is simply this. Reason and rational thought are only part of what it is to be human. Instinct, human passions, and yes, even beliefs are part of what it is to be human. Therefore if you're going to have a debate wouldn't it be natural to assume people wouldn't JUST use reason and logic to back up their arguments? Now Jubatus, you say you want to be enlighten others or be enlightened yourself. Well to that I say, how could you hope to enlighten people by arguing with them over something as deeply personal as religion? More importantly how could you hope to be enlightened when you presume religion is just flat out wrong or illogical anyway. That's what I'm talking about when I speak of opposing points of view. Your view of religion is just as prejudiced as the people who you're arguing with, its just prejudiced in the opposite direction(so to speak). So what do hope to learn or gain by having a verbal fight that's a stalemate from the start? It's like two adults playing tic tac toe, neither one can win unless someone get bored or makes a blunder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Originally posted by JediLiberator The one thing that bugs me about saying things like this is simply this. Reason and rational thought are only part of what it is to be human. Instinct, human passions, and yes, even beliefs are part of what it is to be human. Therefore if you're going to have a debate wouldn't it be natural to assume people wouldn't JUST use reason and logic to back up their arguments? Now Jubatus, you say you want to be enlighten others or be enlightened yourself. Well to that I say, how could you hope to enlighten people by arguing with them over something as deeply personal as religion? More importantly how could you hope to be enlightened when you presume religion is just flat out wrong or illogical anyway. That's what I'm talking about when I speak of opposing points of view. Your view of religion is just as prejudiced as the people who you're arguing with, its just prejudiced in the opposite direction(so to speak). So what do hope to learn or gain by having a verbal fight that's a stalemate from the start? It's like two adults playing tic tac toe, neither one can win unless someone get bored or makes a blunder. If you had cared to read this thread then you would know I do indeed not want to argue against religious dogma, but that does not mean I can't discuss religion. Life consists of emotions too, yes, but that's not what I'm against when it comes to debates; I'm against (and I'm really getting to hate repeating myself when people do not read thoroughly) is DOGMA , especially the religious kind. Belief, or more to the point faith, is harmful in that it might boost the confidence of the weak, but it is a delusion, a false premise from which to form a world view. Now, religion has spread some pretty hefty such delusions and these delusions are refugia for those who are content with remaining intellectually stagnant, because all the answers are already provided for them in the form of ancient texts repeated again and again from figureheads of authority that have no other merit of authority than that very same dogmatic delusion! And for fear of not being confirmed in the righteousness of their delusion they spew it into the face of all they meet in the hope that they might join them in the simplicity of their blissful dark corners, whilst relying on the merit of numbers and the age of their delusion to be reasons enough to validate them! I am exactly wanting to rip people from their delusion that they might contribute to their world and common man in a constructive manner, moving forward on the road of evolution towards whatever end that might bring us, be it annihilation or enlightenment. My "prejudice" against religion is not about various aspects of the religion; it is against the very essence of religion itself! But I do realize that I cannot win, and my only hope is saving the rare few who, on their way into this shared delusion, might read my words, see the truth of them, and be spared that indignity of hiding behind false solutions to the intellectual and emotional issues of this existence! Fear spreads like cancer and religion has long ago found the ultimate fear to ever enter the heart of man; the fear of death, both for themselves and their closest, and religion have through the centuries abused that fear to goad hordes of followers into seeking shelter in a house of golden promises and abysmal threats, making people forget that there is a simple evolutionary, genetic reason for their mortality, and if they do seek immortality then it is to be found within their children and their children and theirs and theirs and so on and so on. And why fear oblivion, nothingness, the discontinuation of consciousness and awareness? There is no rational reason, for if you do not exist, can you feel sorry for yourself for it? Can you regret it? If it is too hard to answer then think of the question for the other end - what if you were never born? Would you feel sorry for yourself for that? Would you regret it? No, because you do not exist to do so! There is no pain, no loss and no regret in non-existence, so why fear it? Oh, and all the higher qualities of human behaviour written of in the Bible or whatever religious scripture one might adhere to; all these virtues can easily be embraced without pledging yourself to any delusion, in fact they become more pure if you're not pledged to some religion, because you act nobly because it is your own conviction and not because you're obeying some higher authority. Yet it is true enough that it is fear of authorities that keep a civilization intact, but it should be from the laws conceived from man's reason and logic observing existence as is, not from some obscure, omniscient and omnipotent entity claiming the capability to hold our very eternity in their grasp. For mankind's sake, open your eyes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLiberator34 Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Maybe its true that religion is the "opium of the masses" as you say, but the same religions that perpetrate the "illusion" of an afterlife also do more to instill a sense of morality in people than all the logical arguments in the world. How can you teach morality and logic to a child? In terms of complex arguments and ideas they wouldn't undertand? Or in terms simple stories and myths, in terms of parables and basic rules they can understand. Do those myths limit peoples' ability to think for themselves and make them more easily manipulated by people in leadership positions? Yes it does. But their condition as manipulatable subjects does not change when you remove those religious conventions. How do I know that? Look at the way politicians use the media to influence regular citizens today. The idea of controlling the information a ruled populace recieves to keep control of said populace started with religion, but it does not end there. Today in present day society, religion's role has to been to act as a source of conservative and moral indoctrination of people. That is to say they teach normal folks to do the right thing and to act within the constraints of religious tradition. While those traditions can be severly limiting and promote injustice within a society, they are also part of the glue that holds society together. Jubatus, you suggest that we remove those religious traditions and teach morality based on logic. I say we change religious traditions to face the realities of a new society. Logic is only half the answer, or maybe even less that half. By teaching people to observe and participate in a "divine" order religions teach them important values, and that is something pure logic can never do. There is no logical argument in this world that backs up being a good person as well as religion. The very quality you see in religious people as a detriment to debate is sometimes the one thing that keeps people from commiting evil acts and atrocities on their fellow humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by JediLiberator Maybe its true that religion is the "opium of the masses" as you say, but the same religions that perpetrate the "illusion" of an afterlife also do more to instill a sense of morality in people than all the logical arguments in the world. So basically you'd rather live a civilized lie than an anarchistic truth. Originally posted by JediLiberator How can you teach morality and logic to a child? In terms of complex arguments and ideas they wouldn't undertand? Or in terms simple stories and myths, in terms of parables and basic rules they can understand. There is a difference between telling parables and myths for the sake of explanation and claiming that the source of these stories are divine in origin. Besides, rationale and logic does not exclude using parables. Originally posted by JediLiberator Do those myths limit peoples' ability to think for themselves and make them more easily manipulated by people in leadership positions? Yes it does. Only if they swallow them on faith without criticism. Originally posted by JediLiberator But their condition as manipulatable subjects does not change when you remove those religious conventions. How do I know that? Look at the way politicians use the media to influence regular citizens today. The idea of controlling the information a ruled populace recieves to keep control of said populace started with religion, but it does not end there. Indeed not, but that is not an argument to validate religion, in fact it puts it right on the shelf with political manipulation, thus not excusing religion, merely pointing out an accomplice. And I think we all are quite aware that political and religious manipulation are often intermixed, one abusing the other for further control. Originally posted by JediLiberator Today in present day society, religion's role has to been to act as a source of conservative and moral indoctrination of people. That is to say they teach normal folks to do the right thing and to act within the constraints of religious tradition. While those traditions can be severly limiting and promote injustice within a society, they are also part of the glue that holds society together. Nevertheless they remain a false premise for the founding and continuation of a civilization. If mankind cannot do without then mankind needs to wake up to alternate realities about existence, truer realities. And I must add that this view that we could not do as a stable society without religion seems nothing more to me than a conditioning of the mind serving as a crutch for the weaker elements. Originally posted by JediLiberator Jubatus, you suggest that we remove those religious traditions and teach morality based on logic. I say we change religious traditions to face the realities of a new society. Logic is only half the answer, or maybe even less that half. By teaching people to observe and participate in a "divine" order religions teach them important values, and that is something pure logic can never do. There is no logical argument in this world that backs up being a good person as well as religion. The very quality you see in religious people as a detriment to debate is sometimes the one thing that keeps people from commiting evil acts and atrocities on their fellow humans. The key sentence here being: There is no logical argument in this world that backs up being a good person as well as religion., which again leads us to the options of living a civilized lie rather than anarchistic truth. This glorification of human life is a societal dogma that has been bred into us for the main part by religion. It's this dogma that allows for the sustaining of those who cannot survive on their own and the prolonging of lives beyond what is personally bearable. Yet if you wanna support a multi-handicapped child that would have no chance on its own, by all means do so, just don't force the "obligation" of this care down the throat of your surrounding society. And if a person, who has lived out her life, ends in barely endurable pain of body due to the hardship of a laborous life, then let her die with some dignity instead of hooking her up to machines to keep her alive for a few more years despite the lack of possibility of recuperation just because society has deemed it the "humane" thing to do. We are in agreement that humans need something more than logic and rationale to live by and for, of course we do. I say we should live by logic, and for emotion, and the beautiful ugliness of this is that logic and emotions are each other's greatest adversary. And that conflict is what makes this wonderous life, and one would think that would suffice. I for one belief so. Praise emotions for what they are, don't contribute them to some higher ideal that would demand our obedience. It is a illusory control based on fear....not healthy. I hear it often in their own choice of words by religious people; they behave like good people because of fear of retribution, and not of love for the righteousness of that behaviour. 'tis sad indeed. Granted, there are a few rare religious people that actually are benevolent out of love for their religious teachings, yet they are still under that false assumption that those teaching could not and cannot be without the religion. Why must we have higher ideals than ourselves and our intellectual and emotional capabilities in order to care about each other? Does that not speak something crucial of human nature? Does that not suggest that only our imagination puts us apart from the primal? 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TheLiberator34 Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 So basically you'd rather live a civilized lie than an anarchistic truth. Essentially that's all I see humans doing. Creating myths and stories about the existence of a "divine" presense to reinforce the ideas that preserve civilized order. If you have a historical bit of evidence that shows a human society relying on morals based on logic tell me. Because I take a glance through history and I see a whole sea of "civilized lies" as you put it. The idea you suggest would benefit individuals, I don't deny that, but it could also decrease our species' chances of survival. Because when people are taught to believe the same set of moral principles they are less likely to fight over it, especially when they fear "divine" retribution as you put it. And if you did manage to banish religion what would you put in it's place? Because you cannot tear down a major institution of society and just walk away and leave everyone out there like fish caught out of water. How would YOU teach morality in such a way that it keeps us from each others' throats? More than that, how could things like empathy and compassion be taught without talking about matters of "the spirit" (for lack of a better word). Have at thee sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubatus Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 Originally posted by JediLiberator Essentially that's all I see humans doing. Creating myths and stories about the existence of a "divine" presense to reinforce the ideas that preserve civilized order. If you have a historical bit of evidence that shows a human society relying on morals based on logic tell me. Because I take a glance through history and I see a whole sea of "civilized lies" as you put it. You somehow present this as something I've denied, while it is exactly what I've been saying all along and been advocating against. Yes, we have through all civilized history been living a lie, as a whole. That's the problem! Originally posted by JediLiberator The idea you suggest would benefit individuals, I don't deny that, but it could also decrease our species' chances of survival. Might it actually be (and cast the dogmatic ideal of the unquestionability of mankind's survival aside, if even for a moment) that we indeed, through our growing intellect, are on a road to a fuller understanding of existence that will eventually overcome our primal, genetic urges and lead us to the discontinuation of our existence as a species as the logic viable result? In other words, will rationale at some point finally get the better of emotion and we can quietly return to the oblivion from whence we came? Originally posted by JediLiberator And if you did manage to banish religion what would you put in it's place? Reason, rationale and logic battling it out with emotions; let the chips fall where they may! Originally posted by JediLiberator Because you cannot tear down a major institution of society and just walk away and leave everyone out there like fish caught out of water. I would ask why not, but you have already given an answer which I in return have answered. Originally posted by JediLiberator How would YOU teach morality in such a way that it keeps us from each others' throats? I wouldn't polute mankind with morality. Morality finds only true disciples in the few, hypocrites in the many, and ignorance in the rest. Originally posted by JediLiberator More than that, how could things like empathy and compassion be taught without talking about matters of "the spirit" By recognizing them as subjects to the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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