Darth Windu Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Hi folks. Looking at my SWGB2 template, i have decided that each commander (general) needs a unique unit to further differentiate them from each other. What i was wondering is, does anyone have any ideas as to what these units could be? So far, i have- Republic - Mace Windu (Jedi) - TX130 fighter tank (from 'Clone Wars' game) - Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms) - Clone Lancers (from 'Clone Wars' series) Empire - Admiral Piett (Aircraft) - TIE Advanced (Episode IV) and thats about all i've come up with so far. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Perhaps you could try and have more than one uniqye unit perhaps at least 3 a pair of unqiue structures and several upgrades since that would certainly help differntiate. Can you list the Commanders and their specialities for each civ you've got and i'll give you some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Yeah, I think the day of civs being made different by the inclusion of a single unique unit went with Rise of Nations. But if you still want to do so, at least list all the Generals you've got as Viceroy said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Yes. The this brings up the question of a Generals-ripoff. I didn't include Generals in my design because not only are they a ripoff of C&C Generals, but to be honest I don't think they are all that relevant to Star Wars. Let's face it, although you can shoehorn characters in Star Wars into specialities (Piett is Admiral of the Death Fleet... which is in space... therefore his speciality is Aircraft), for the most part the major factions fight in the same way no matter who is in command of the forces. Was Admiral Ackbar's assault on the Second Death Star really that tactically different to General Dodonna's assault on the First Death Star? No. Although Ackbar had Capital Ships at his disposal, the assault was mainly in the form of one-man fighters, the same as it was at Yavin. So what I'm asking is this: are you including Generals in your design to better represent the Star Wars Universe, or are you including Generals in your design because it was a fun idea in Command and Conquer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I didn't post anything like that so why bring up a pointless debate. If each of the generals is totally unique and is woreked with carefully it can use a similar system but not be seen as the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 I never said you posted anything like that. I'm bringing up my old argument against Generals. Why bother including Generals when it doesn't really fit with the Star Wars Universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Becayse that seems to be the way most RTS's are going and we've already said that ours is subtly different and also because it hasn't been tried in the star wars context so HOW do you know it isn't true. You did agree a while ago because it helped give a sense of scale and that is the reason I think they should be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 It isn't different enough to be not seen as a ripoff. So why add it in, when it doesn't make sense in the Star Wars context, when it will be seen as "just another game adding in Generals"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 Viceroy - there is no way that i could possibly give each commander 3 unique units and two unique structures. One is hard enough. Vostok - i added them for a number of reasons, but mainly so the game has a greater re-play value. After all, there is only so many times you can play a game until there is nothing new anymore, but with four different commanders for each of the five civs, there will be a greater re-play value. As for reflecting SW, it does somewhat, in that each Commander/General/Admiral have their own strategy and area of expertise. Even looking at it as not promoting or reflecting SW, it doesnt take anything away and gives the extra re-play value. As for the Commanders, they are Confederacy - OOM-9 (Mech) - General Grievous (Combined Arms) Republic - Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms) - Mace Windu (Jedi) - Yoda (Offence) - Saesee Tiin (Aircraft) Empire - Darth Vader (Combined Arms) - Admiral Piett (Aircraft) - General Veers (Mechs) - Admiral Ozzel (Defence) Rebellion - Admiral Ackbar (Aircraft) - General Madine (Intelligence) - General Rieekan (Defence) - Luke Skywalker (Combined Arms) Naboo - Padme Amidala (Combined Arms) - Jar Jar Binks (Luck) - Captain Tarpals (Mechs) - Captain Panaka (Infantry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saberhagen Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Yeah, having Jar Jar as a general is going to be really popular... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 4, 2004 Author Share Posted October 4, 2004 Regardless of the popularity of Jar Jar, he is a major, even pivotal, character in the SW saga, so he should be included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I see Vostok's point it does look like another rip-off since its what Windu does best. This would not give it replay value because sites like gamespy etc would see right through the game and know its a Generals copy. Viceroy enough is enough every point Vostok has to say you shoot down, this whole thing is very tired. I now think you disagree with him just because you have a grudge don't like his views so you just attack every post he makes. I'm not defending Vostok but I'm just sick of the post wars you guys have every thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 How about General Poggle and Sev'rance Tann as other generals or perhaps Assajj Ventress she certainly did some military commanding. for her you could have Exotic Technology as her speciality It's perfecdtly possible to create those windu i'll give some examples. For admiral Ozzel you could give him a Huge Sheild Projector that could give all his units sheilding and you could have a Special type of Defense Turret and for reiken You could have a Forward Command Post that when near trench system gives all units a bonus to all stats. you could also have a Medical Center that heals all Biological units when they are nearby. See windu it's easy Wouldn't having a few Defensive commanders lead to turtling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Well, as far as who said what and what belongs to what thread/post, I could care less. That being said, a new RTS will be NOTHING like the old one. Just look at some of the new ones out there and the ones coming out soon. I think being able to "buy" heroes and build them up will be a huge part to any new RTS. And the building up of "force points" (fate points, earned via battle) will be key as well. Units are great and all, but give me a hero to build up and whomp on you with any day! Bring on the Battle for Middle-earth goddamnit! 11/15 can't come soon enough!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Well I don't know how they could add heroes in SW what happens when they die... I bet they just pass it off and you clone them when they die but cloning is not as big in the galaxy as most of these new games make it out to be. I don't think Jedi even would even like being cloned seeing as they are one with the force and all. But for gameplay I guess I'll accept it. I'll buy B4ME upon or close to release it just looks awesome but since I don't have cable back yet I'll wait till January before I play it online. Even though I'm still a little worried about the balance. Americans are very confused people don't they know day comes before the month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 In some respects I agree with Vostok I just disagree with his arguments against the Commander system If I argued like that with him do you really think he and I would make such a good team in the forum games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 You get just enough from the movies to establish the new villain's role and importance. The EU, of course, will flesh things out with George's blessing. -PH I think we should however leave Classing General Grevious as a certain type of general until evertyhing comes out including the EU which from that quote is going to be critical and with George Lucas's blessing so there'll be some EU immune from purist arguments i never would have thought that. anyway Republic - Obi Wan Kenobi (Combined Arms) - Mace Windu (Jedi) - Yoda (Offence) - Saesee Tiin (Aircraft) Empire - Darth Vader (Combined Arms) - Admiral Piett (Aircraft) For Piett you could replace his airfeild with an advanced airfield that is armed heavily armouer and has sheilding. For a unique structure he could have a Starfighter Command which would boost all of his fighters and bombers by making them faster more manoeverable and cost less. you could also give him the TIE Scimtar Bomber and perhaps instead of getting walkers he could get the TIE Crawler and he could perhaps get the Insanely expensive TIE Defender {the starfighter command would reduce the cost but not so it can be whored that is unless your economy is in increadibly good shape} - General Veers (Mechs) - Admiral Ozzel (Defence) Rebellion - Admiral Ackbar (Aircraft) - General Madine (Intelligence) - General Rieekan (Defence) - Luke Skywalker (Combined Arms) I'll edit this post when i have more time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 As Froz said, having multiple Generals certainly won't improved replayability. It's true game reviewers will shoot it down pre-emptively. But what do you base the argument of more Generals = more replayability on, Windu? Zero Hour has heaps of different generals and isn't any more replayable. In fact I haven't even played as some of the Generals in that game but it is already tired. As pbguy said, I think Heroes are more important than Generals. Especially in a Star Wars game, where Heroes are the major part of the movies. Froz, when it comes to Heroes dying in the game, perhaps they can't be rebuilt? I'm not sure how Hero deaths are dealt with in BfME, but presumably a similar approach would be suitable for Star Wars. Don't forget the Hero may not even necessarily die; they're just taken out of action for a period of time, recover in a bacta tank and soon look strong enough to pull the ears of a Gundark. Viceroy, I think Windu is hesitant to make up so many units because he's trying to preserve the Star Wars feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK_Viceroy Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 he could always look to EU since that's what most people have done here to pad out their templates afterr much frantic searching in the films for a glimpse oir a glimmer of a unit idea. The sheild projector idea was in the films except it was a sheild being projewcted to the death star I can however imagine that it could be done on something moving like the system in the first NJO book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbguy1211 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Well, some aspects of B4Me seem to take aspects of War of the Ring. In scenario's you can start with heroes. If they die, sometimes you can "rebuy" them. In your "CC" you can buy heroes. But not with $$$. With Fate points. Fate points are awarded for battling. And certain hereos are worth more fate points. Also, you upgrade your heroes by having them battle more. Ex: my fighting Gandalf will whoop on your Saruman who you hide in your base because his levels will increase. Fate points can also be used to upgrade your heroes unique abilities. Wizards get spells. Aragorn uses ethelas to heal people, etc... This "General" crap will never fly. Who knows who the hell a Piet is anyway? And more importantly, who cares. You can't micro the game with a unit no one knows or cares about. It's not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Originally posted by pbguy1211 You can't micro the game with a unit no one knows or cares about. It's not worth it. Exactly. I don't understand how Windu can believe that a single unique unit and a few bonuses here and there will increase replayability. It won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 I believe adding Commanders will increase re-playability because, ideally, each commander will play in a different way to the other commanders, and hence keep the game interesting for longer. As for ZH, i cant comment because i've never played it. As for Unique Units, Vostok is correct. While it would be possible to give each commander 3 unique units each, it really would diminish the SW feel of the game and once you get too many units, people just dont care what they are sending into battle any more. Actually, thinking about that, i may try to reduce the number of units each side has... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Vostok Posted October 6, 2004 Share Posted October 6, 2004 Well theoretically different Commanders should increase replayability. But in practice it would seem this is not the case. Zero Hour made the Generals far more diverse than you are planning on making yours, and it didn't increase replayability much at all. The only way Commanders could improve replayability is if they made each civ hugely unique like in Age of Mythology, but going to that much uniqueness will ruin the Star Wars feel. So in conclusion I don't think Commanders/Generals are a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Windu Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Well i completely disagree Vostok. From what i have seen of ZH, the bonuses i am looking at are more diverse and are of greater value, and in terms of units, ZH only really gave modified units, whereas i am giving completely unique units. Aside from that, even if the idea doesnt work as well as i think it will, it won't have taken anything away from the game so there is no reason not to include Commanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FroZticles Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 ZH gave alot of new units, you can't judge on a game you never played. I still don't see how this will work. Balancing 20 different commanders, bonuses and units won't be easy at all. This idea will take more then it will give. Generals made a huge mistake by adding 9 new general civs into the game when the 3 they currently had were not balanced at all. Forget the star wars feel, I think this will ruin gameplay you cannot balance all those generals in an already unbalanced template. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.