SWGB2: Commander-specific unique units

[saberhagen]

The thing that most influences replayability is how many other people are playing the game. That depends on getting it well balanced and having MP that works properly, preferably with ratings built into the game.

[Darth Windu]

It wont be that hard to balance, as long as the civs themselves are balanced correctly.

 

As for unique units, remember that im not arbitrarily adding UU's, i am adding Commander-specific UU's. For example, General Windu, and only General Windu will have access to the TX-130 Fighter Tank.

[Admiral Vostok]

Aside from that, even if the idea doesnt work as well as i think it will, it won't have taken anything away from the game so there is no reason not to include Commanders.

I might not take anything away from the game, but by the same token it doesn't add anything:

 

REALISM: No realism is added because in the Star Wars movies Generals/Commanders don't specialise in different types of warfare.

GAMEPLAY: No gameplay is added because as Zero Hour has shown us more civs does not equal more replayability. Like saberhagen said, a properly balanced game with good multiplayer will have the most replayability, and the more civ variations you add the greater the chances of unbalancing the game and creating bad multiplayer.

 

If you aren't gaining much from adding them why waste the time and money on implementing them? Instead it would be better to add easy modability like the Generals engine so people can tinker and add new units to their heart's content. In fact it should be noted that the only thing giving a breath of life to Generals now is it's great modding potential.

[DK_Viceroy]

I actually like ZH but it should have been the original Generals Personally I think LA would be wise to take the best bits out of every game and do some experimentation and be bold but most importantly release a Beta to the star wars community { Namely Us } to prevent a Force Commander 2

[Darth Windu]

Well i disagree Vostok, i think it will add a great deal to the game by increasing replay value.

 

As for the realism sector, are you serious? So it must be a coincidence then that Admirals Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel command starships while Generals Veers, Riekaan and Solo command ground forces. Yep, sure sounds like Commanders in SW dont have specialities

 

As for gameplay, mine is different from ZH and hence your example does not apply.

 

Anyway, this still hasnt gotten me any more ideas of what i can use for UU's. Come on people, there must be some ideas floating around out there!

[lukeiamyourdad]

How can people come up with ideas for something they disagree with ?

[DK_Viceroy]

Am I invisible or just un-apreciated I came up with some ideas or does NO ONE read posts around here anymore?

[Darth Windu]

Luke -im not asking if you agree or not, im asking if you have any ideas for Cspecific UU's

 

Viceroy - you havent posted any ideas...

[FroZticles]

Windu you keep saying this idea will increase replay value but there is nothing to suggest it will. I loved RA2 and Generals but the game style is not multiplayer material which is the direction your taking this template.

 

I think most of the board disagrees with the idea except maybe viceroy.

[saberhagen]

Even for single player I don't think generals will increase replay value that much. For SP the most important thing for replay value is AI. There's no point playing again with another general if you know you can beat the computer without trying.

[DK_Viceroy]

Originally posted by DK_Viceroy

How about General Poggle and Sev'rance Tann as other generals or perhaps Assajj Ventress she certainly did some military commanding. for her you could have Exotic Technology as her speciality

 

It's perfecdtly possible to create those windu i'll give some examples.

 

For admiral Ozzel you could give him a Huge Sheild Projector that could give all his units sheilding and you could have a Special type of Defense Turret

 

and for reiken You could have a Forward Command Post that when near trench system gives all units a bonus to all stats. you could also have a Medical Center that heals all Biological units when they are nearby.

 

See windu it's easy

 

Wouldn't having a few Defensive commanders lead to turtling?

 

Are those Idea's or does your definition of Ideas differ to everyone elses?

[saberhagen]

And who would want to play as somoene called Poggle?

[Darth Windu]

Viceroy - i asked for ideas for Unique Units, not buildings - there actually is a difference

 

Saber - i certainly wouldnt, which is why he isnt in my template. Apart from that, in my template the Geonosians arent part of the Confederacy, therefore there wouldnt be any Geonosian Commanders

 

FroZ - there is a lot to suggest it. As long as the civs are properly balanced and the Commanders are significantly different, there will be a great deal of re-play value. Besides, if it doesnt work, nothing has been lost

[FroZticles]

Ok since your so set on them I'll try to help out but I'll just help with what you have I don't feel like thinking of unique units.

 

Explain and be a little more creative with your bonuses. As it stands now your generals only give bonuses it would be a lot better if they gained research and a few units and maybe one or 2 bonuses. Not like this though...

 

Admiral Piett – Aircraft – all Aircraft gain Firepower, Cost, Build Time, Armour, Speed and Line-of-Sight bonuses, but with detriments in the same categories for Infantry, Mechs and Structures

 

I could create a general who excels in walls and he would still be the most creative general out of all of yours. Very generic and boring, explain more and maybe a brief history about them to save some of us the time to run to the databank so we can find out who half of these generals are.

[Darth Windu]

FroZ - differentiating the Commanders is exactly what im trying to do. To use the example of Admiral Piett, as it stands, he gets lots of bonuses in terms of firepower, hitpoints, cost etc for all aircraft, while ground units and structures and more expensive and weaker. While this does give some uniqueness, i also want to add a UU, such as the TIE Advanced (Ep4) to give Piett something no-one else has. As for research, i could easily include cheaper aircraft research.

 

For explaining the Commanders better, all im really trying to do is explain what they do, and all of my Commanders are in the films anyway, so there is really no need for elaboration.

[Admiral Vostok]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

there is a lot to suggest it.

Like what? As I said Zero Hour, which is the closest thing to what you are suggesting, did not improve replayability by having Generals.

 

As for the realism sector, are you serious? So it must be a coincidence then that Admirals Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel command starships while Generals Veers, Riekaan and Solo command ground forces. Yep, sure sounds like Commanders in SW dont have specialities

By your own example you've demonstrated what I mean. Admiral Ackbar, Piett and Ozzel are naval officers. As such they do not command ground forces, so realistically should not be selectable Commanders in a ground-based RTS game. What you should be demonstrating is how General Rieekan's strategies are any different from General Madine's. Just because Madine used an infiltration team doesn't make him a Stealth General; Rieekan would have used the same tactics if he was overseeing the ground forces on Endor, in the same way that Madince would not have used infiltrating strike teams on Hoth.

[DK_Viceroy]

Vostok your overlooking Reality as well.

 

Several Generals do have unique Strategies and they use what they have in different and unique ways and this is for reality.

 

Would you say German Tactics would be the same as French or British yet they're all part of the EU so you could count them as sperate generals.

 

Also in the games we even said if we were made generals what specialities we would have.

 

Saber with confed was mechs

 

Myself with Confed was Troopers

 

see different people will use different tactics even if they use the same units.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - it will be different enough to ensure slightly different playing styles, which means replay value.

 

As for Generals and Admirals, i'll give you some real world examples-

 

Admiral Fletcher - Destroyer Admiral

General Patton - Armour General

General Guderian - Armour General

Admiral Nimitz - Fleet Admiral (Carriers)

General LeMay - Bomber General

 

As viceroy pointed out, military leaders often have specialities that define how they will fight a battle. Just look at the commander of US SOCOM. Any battles fought by that general would use stealth and small numbers of highly trained infantry.

[saberhagen]

Individual generals do have their own favourite strategies, tactics and styles of fighting. But isn't it up to the player to decide that? It won't improve playability to have your options limited by the character you're playing as.

[DK_Viceroy]

Yes it will because they'll pick the Commander that best suits there style that is the whole point you don't pick the tank general which would have Aircraft Negative modifiers and less air units if your an air whore and neither would you do the reverse.

 

How many people forget common sense.

 

A Few other Real World Examples.

 

General Erwin Rommel - Tactical Supremacy

 

General Bernard Montgomery - Numerical Superiority

 

Good examples windu

[Admiral Vostok]

If you're going to use real-world examples, let me stress my point by doing the same. I'm no military history buff, so the only real-world General you've mentioned above that I'm familiar with is Patton. You say he is an "Armour General", Windu, and it is true he used tanks to great success. But did he have any better tanks than anyone else - in game terms, did he have tank bonuses? No. He got the same things all the other Generals in the army got, he just used them to different effect.

 

But I prefer using Star Wars examples rather than real-world examples. I believe in your design General Madine is a stealth and/or espionage General. It's true that he used stealth for the Endor Strike Team. But would he have used the same tactic if he was in charge on Hoth instead of Rieekan? Could he have used stealth and espionage to win that battle?

 

No.

 

As Saberhagen said, different strategies should be up to the player, not to what General they chose.

 

Vostok - it will be different enough to ensure slightly different playing styles, which means replay value.

Again that sounds reasonable, but looking at the evidence we have it is just not the case. When I asked for what evidence you had to suggest Generals provide replayability, I didn't want speculation.

[Darth Windu]

Vostok - in terms of generals, you are quite correct, Patton's tanks were the same as all other US generals. But because he had greater tactical ability with tanks, he was able to achieve more with them. Therefore, bonuses are given in the game to simulate this tactical ability - for example, with aircraft, think of it as having better C2 and better pilots.

 

As for Madine, have you even considered that that is why he wasnt in comand at Hoth?

 

I'm not trying to stifle player tactics, nor would this concept do that, it just gives players the option to play with slightly different variations of their favourite civ. For example, if you love Jedi, you would play as General Windu because he gets Jedi bonuses, which go to your style of play. If you like to sneak around, you would play as General Madine, and if you love air-whoring, you would play as Admiral Ackbar, Admiral Piett or Saesee Tiin. (actually im thinking of replacing Ackbar with Calrissian, but keeping the bonuses the same)

[Admiral Vostok]

But because he had greater tactical ability with tanks, he was able to achieve more with them.

Exactly. But surely tactical ability is best represented by the player's tactical ability, and not through bonuses.

 

Another factor to consider in the argument is this: research. Personally, I like the myriad research options available in SWGB, and I find it helps with replayability. You research the various different things when you need them, which may be different every game. For example in a game against an air-strong civ you'll focus on anti-air technologies, while against an infantry-strong civ you'd research anti-infantry techs. Generals, on the other hand, only has at most a dozen technologies to research, which for the most part are always researched in the same order making for less variation and therefore less replayability. Then we have Windu's no-brainer approach, where you don't even select technologies to research, they just research themselves, which I think seriously decreases replayability.

 

So taking this into consideration, perhaps Generals/Commanders would be an okay idea for Windu's design: it's the only way a person is going to be able to focus tactical ability.

 

To demonstrate my point, consider this. I am undeniably an air whore. When playing SWGB, I often neglect some technologies in favour of researching those that will make my aircraft better. It is through research that tactical abilities can focus. As Naboo I have strong Air and Jedi, but often I don't research much Jedi techs at all, instead focussing on Air. Conversely, I could chose not to go with air and might go with Jedi instead. In this case I wouldn't research many air technologies and would instead focus on Jedi techs.

 

In Windu's approach, people cannot do this. They are stuck with the build order and research order because of his research system. Sure, I can put more credits into the technology areas to make it research faster, but because I can't pick and chose technologies I'll have to get both air technologies and Jedi technologies whether I want both or not. As such, players cannot specialise their researching and thus tactical ability. Everything gets researched whether you want it or not.

 

If Windu's design were to be used, it seems the only way a person possibly could specialise their tactical ability is by choosing the relevant Commander. There isn't a good way to specialise in Air unless you choose Admiral Ackbar. There isn't a good way to specialise in Jedi unless you chose Mace Windu.

 

So what I'm saying is that in a game with a decent research and technology system (for example, SWGB) Generals don't add much since you can already specialise in different areas through your research. But in Windu's system where you have absolutely no freedom in your research order, Commanders are the only way a player can possibly specialise in any one area. So Windu, Commanders will work well in your system but only because it is inherently flawed through the research system so as to limit players options if they don't chose a specialist Commander.

[Darth Windu]

Actually Vostok, that is quite untrue. In terms of my research, there are different sub-disciplines that you can research. For example, by turning on 'advanced options', you can choose to direct research into infantry, mechs or aircraft, rather than just military. So, if you wanted to specialise in Aircraft, you would play, for example, as Admiral Ackbar, and using 'advanced options' put a lot of credits into aircraft research.

 

I should also point out that players could challenge themselves by, for example, trying to beat their opponents with mainly aircraft while playing as General Veers etc.

[Admiral Vostok]

Well that's slightly better but still not as good as the current system. For example, in your system you still can't specialise between fighters and bombers. I know sometimes I'll leave all my bomber research until after I've done all my fighter research, but sometimes (if my opponent calls for it) I'll research bombers and fighters at the same time. Again, you're system doesn't allow for this flexibility.

 

Don't get me wrong, the "Commanders" model doesn't necessarily fail. Age of Mythology is a great game and uses a kind of Commanders model in the form of the Major Gods. However, the different Major Gods are remarkably different so as to justifiably be a civ in their own right. They have multiple unique units, several unique technologies and even some unique abilities like Poseidon's militia or Set's animals. To top it off, all the civs are intricately balanced so there is no rock-paper-scissors when it comes to civs.

 

The different Generals in Zero Hour are quite a step down from AoM. Each General will have at most two unique units, and perhaps two unique techs. They'll have some decent unique abilities like the toxin guns or laser defenses. However, the civs are even more unbalanced than the vanilla factions. The rock-paper-scissors problem is heavily in effect: it is virtually impossible for the US Aircraft General to defeat the Chinese Infantry General if they each play to their strengths.

 

Then we have Windu's model which is yet another step down. A single unique unit for each civ, no unique techs at all (due to the crappy research system) and extremely minor unique abilities. Age of Mythology was great, Zero Hour less so, so logic dictates that Windu's Commanders model will suffer incredibly, especially if compared to the Commander models that have come before.