Open Discussion Invitation: on making "balanced" items

[Damar Stiehl]

Having gotten my grubby little hands on Kotor Tool, my first impulse was to... right, create Damar's Jewel-Encrusted Pimpstick of Ungodly Smackdown. I s'pose most everyone does that But then I started thinking about creating my own "item set" for a public release, and the question of making it at least "somewhat" balanced reared its ugly head.

 

So, I invite you to an open discussion. Do you have an idea for a "baseline" to make items that are, while uber, are not super-duper-mega-uber?

 

Here are my thoughts, feel free to tear them apart.

 

1. No single item shall offer a bonus to any attribute in excess of +4.

 

2. No single item shall offer attribute bonuses that total in excess of 12. Reason: the most powerful "stock" attribute booster, the D-Implant, gives +2 to all attributes, 12 points in total. That oughtta be enough.

 

3. No single item shall provide immunity from all negative effects at once (Stun, Fear, Horror, Poison, Critical hits).

 

4. If an item boosts more than 1 attribute by the amount greater than 4 points in total, or boosts all saves by more than +2, it shall have a requirement of some kind imposed on it. Example: a headgear that I made, called Consular's Band, gives +2 to Int, Wis and Cha, and +2 to Force Points Regen. It has a requirement of minimum Wisdom of 16, because only mentally conditioned people can withstand this kind of intense cerebral stimulation.

 

5. If an item provides 10-12 total points of attribute bonuses, it shall EITHER require a minimum attribute value of 18 (like the Universal D-Package), OR have a drawback, such as an attribute penalty, skill penalty or a vulnerability.

 

6. If possible, Required Feats should be used for more powerful items. Example: I created an armband called Sentinel's Armband. It gives a +4 bonus to all saves and immunity to Stun, Fear and Horror. It requires the user to possess the feat Improved Conditioning, justifying that the armband uses the wearer's natural Force patterns to maximize one's physical conditioning.

 

That's about all I can say so far, let me know what you think.

[ChAiNz.2da]

while it may or may not ever be "written in stone", it does give really good guidelines as how to go about creating an item's properties, and what's considered "too much"... hehe I'll probably wind up incorparating most if not all of these guides

[Sandwyrm]

You could do that and/or you could also do heavily unbalanced items, like something that makes your defense bonus super high, but sucks out stuff from your attack modifiers. Or you could increase mental capacities by decreasing physical, so if you are a guardian, you can act like a consular.

 

Just something to think about.

[Damar Stiehl]

Right on! I wish the game didn't bark at negative Force Regeneration and Regeneration values... You could make "Force-powered" items that slow down your FP regeneration and gave you some interesting boost, or some kind of a "biological parasite" item that sucks the user's blood (negative VP regen) in exchange for a boon... Kinda like one or another thingy in Planescape Torment...

[ChAiNz.2da]

Originally posted by Sandwyrm

You could do that and/or you could also do heavily unbalanced items, like something that makes your defense bonus super high, but sucks out stuff from your attack modifiers. Or you could increase mental capacities by decreasing physical, so if you are a guardian, you can act like a consular.

 

Just something to think about.

Sounds alot like:

 

 

The Law of Equivalent Exchange

 

"People cannot gain anything without giving something in return.

To obtain, ...something of equal value must be lost.

That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange."

- Full Metal Alchemist -

[Fred Tetra]

Wow!

 

Somebody who doesn't want to just make the "swing/fire this thing and all enemies on the level die" weapons and "make me as near to invincible as possible without typing the cheat code" armor? I didn't think you existed!

 

Don't get me wrong, making super weapons/armor and new robes/heads/hilts/usw., is stuff that I don't care much for, as it doesn't add anything to the experience for me. I'd rather play the new settings/situations that folks come up with and read through well-written dialogue. I guess it stems from my Dungeons & Dragons 1st edition days in the 1970's; it all had to exist in your head. (Don't any one of you think I am knocking your fine efforts on all of the listed items; I hold every one of you in high regard for the amount of time and dedication spent on them. They're just not for me.)

 

For me, it is nice to see someone taking a different approach to item creation

[Damar Stiehl]

Wow. Endorsements from both ChAiNz.2da and Fred Tetra. I guess it wasn't such a silly idea after all.

[Obex]

Back in the early days of KOTOR i tried to provide a voice of reason for the items being made over here, but i was chased out with torches and pitchforks. I cant tell you how many fantastic models for sabers and robes ive had to pass on due to super powered stats.

 

I think that your ideas have merit. let me add a few of mine to the discussion.

 

1. Custom items should only be slightly better than the standard fare. Otherwise, this leads to challengeless combat.

 

2. All custom items should have some bit of star wars history behind them. a 100% fire resist jedi robe is made much cooler when it turns out to be Jurlax Tal's personal robe, crafted to withstand the sun schorched surface of his home world. This is purely cosmetic i understand, but it make a difference.

 

3. powerful items should only be introduced at appropriate times. otherwise, not only does it unbalance combat, but it makes exploration and item hunting pointless. once you have the 400-500 damage Blaster-matic ® pistol at level 1, then you dont get too excited at finding a mandalorian ripper at level 12.

[FunSolo]

first of all i think its a good way in creatin items. but i think all characters got a too high hitdice. the fights wont last long, but they beaten the **** out of eachother. thats the part of it which is not fun in the kotor series. a melee fight should take more time than a fight against someone with a blaster i think.

but its hard to balance that. cause a blaster or a light saber should be able to kill a person with one hit. it jus should be harder to hit someone for everybody.

[beancounter]

Originally posted by Obex

Back in the early days of KOTOR i tried to provide a voice of reason for the items being made over here, but i was chased out with torches and pitchforks. I cant tell you how many fantastic models for sabers and robes ive had to pass on due to super powered stats.

 

That is what KOTOR Tool is for

 

If I like a model or a reskin I will just change the stats to a more reasonable level! But it would be nice if I did not have too.

 

This is not a problem unique to KOTOR. You can almost guarantee that one of the first mods for ANY game is some uber equipment. They might be fun for a few minutes, but after that it is kind of pointless.

[Mav]

Balancing the stats on an item is like trying to keep a balance between a sumo wrestler and a toddler on a see-saw, I try to make items that aren't hack-n-slash but someone will always complain, so what do I say to that, "adjust it yourself and stop being lazy Kotor Tool is very easy to use" *takes a breath* but honestly I feel that when you make a mod, you make it for yourself not anybody else, you make it for yourself and then let someone else play with it when you're done

[Jackel]

Originally posted by Obex

1. Custom items should only be slightly better than the standard fare. Otherwise, this leads to challengeless combat.

Agreed, I never made an "all powerful killer thingy!". Well one that I released anyway, I played around with the Bragawin sword you buy from Suvam Tum on the Yavin station just for fun as it is hard to get so I thought it needed to be better.

 

Originally posted by Obex

2. All custom items should have some bit of star wars history behind them. a 100% fire resist jedi robe is made much cooler when it turns out to be Jurlax Tal's personal robe, crafted to withstand the sun schorched surface of his home world. This is purely cosmetic i understand, but it make a difference.

I suck at making up "stories" behind items but I tried my best at it

 

Originally posted by Obex

3. powerful items should only be introduced at appropriate times. otherwise, not only does it unbalance combat, but it makes exploration and item hunting pointless. once you have the 400-500 damage Blaster-matic ® pistol at level 1, then you dont get too excited at finding a mandalorian ripper at level 12.

I always made sure when I added items to the game you could only get them off characters that I considered appropriate (EG a couple of sabers off that Mandalorian leader on Dantooine) and made the item no more powerful then when they already carry (unless I felt they needd a little better equipment).

 

I will make sure I stick to my formula for making items and thier prices when I get in to modding TSL.