New Shots of Vader in ESB SE edtion

[TK-8252]

Didn't all the stormtrooper's voices get re-recorded by Temeura as well?

 

Nope.

 

But I don't see what's wrong with Boba's voice. Temeura kicks ass.

[Prime]

Probably a generation gap thing...

[Kurgan]

Nope.

 

But I don't see what's wrong with Boba's voice. Temeura kicks ass.

 

I don't see why it had to be changed. Jason Wingreen kicks more ass.

[Jan Gaarni]

Same with the Hayden ghost really.

 

Not to mention the most debated change ever: Han shooting last instead of first!!

[Kurgan]

You'll find thousands of fans who will leap at the chance to defend that these changes occured and accept them as "gospel" and the "True vision of Star Wars" yet, few, if any, who can offer a convincing reason why these changes "needed" to be made in the first place, other than "Lucas can do whatever he wants with his creation." (Star Wars Calvinists?)

 

To many other fans, these kinds of things make about as much sense as colorizing old black & white films and giving them new remixed soundtracks.

[El Sitherino]

new remixed soundtracks.

Yeah, because mono is too cool right?

[Kurgan]

Yeah, because mono is too cool right?

 

Many film lovers would argue that creating a "fake" stereo mix of a film that was originally shown in "mono" taints the accuracy of the presentation. It's like adding extra bass, echo and reverb to an old song for no good reason other than to try to "modernize" it (much like colorization or CGI effects inserted into old films).

 

That's why so many film lovers insist on widescreen... it's more accurate to the original theatrical presentation of many films. Now there are films that were shot in full frame, and some DVD's have created a "fake" widescreen version of them that was not shown in theaters. This is another area where film lovers (you can call them "purists" but they're right) complain. It's a matter of tossing something in because they think it makes the product more marketable, even though it's an underhanded slight on the original product. If they realize the fact that not all fans are that gullible, they're less likely to push it on them.

 

The deal with many DVD's that present "altered" versions of films, is that the producers understand that film lovers want a "pristine" version of the movie and so they make that version available, usually on the same disc or as part of a "collector's edition" or somesuch. Those that argue till their blue in the face that Lucas is only doing what so many other directors have done often ignore this fact. And nobody argues "oh well you can always dig up your old ratty VHS copy of E.T. from the 80's if you don't want to see walkie talkies in the hands of secret service agents!"

 

Yet when it comes to Star Wars, suddenly all bets are off, and Lucas gets a special pass from his fans.

 

So when you're taking a piece of art and changing it, there are to ways to go that let you pull it off without hurting the original: do a remake (ie: a seperate piece inspired by the first but not connected to it), or provide both versions side by side (and let the viewer/whatever decide which one they like best).

[Jan Gaarni]

Personally, I think there's something wrong with the ANH DVD remix. It lacks punch many places where there used to be a punch (like the opening scene) and music/effects levels is also done bad.

[El Sitherino]

I think maybe you should stop being so uptight about it, they're only movies. The story is still the same who cares about some BS "purity" crap. Basically what I'm getting from a lot of people is that the movie makers shouldn't do anything to their own films without fan consent. Even though the film is infact their brainchild and it is their right to do whatever the **** they want to it. I dunno sounds kinda selfish when you have a bunch of whiny fans yelling "THIS IS NOT JUST YOUR MOVIE, IT'S OURS TOO!".

 

And Kurgan, are you gonna complain that they didn't release the Star Wars DVD's in monotrack?

[TK-8252]

I don't see why it had to be changed. Jason Wingreen kicks more ass.

 

I'd rather have a well-developed character rather than one just based on his scary voice. I dunno, is that just me? I mean, with Vader, his scary voice was part of him, I mean, he is a scary guy. Even looks scary. He's menacing walking into the Tantive IV inspecting the damage... then strangling the ship's captain. But Boba just doesn't need to be scary. I mean, he gets eaten by the Sarlacc like a fool. He's no more scary than a Stormtrooper!

[Kurgan]

Personally, I think there's something wrong with the ANH DVD remix. It lacks punch many places where there used to be a punch (like the opening scene) and music/effects levels is also done bad.

 

According to LucasFilm reps, this was "a creative decision."

 

If you buy that...

[Kurgan]

I think maybe you should stop being so uptight about it, they're only movies. The story is still the same who cares about some BS "purity" crap. Basically what I'm getting from a lot of people is that the movie makers shouldn't do anything to their own films without fan consent. Even though the film is infact their brainchild and it is their right to do whatever the **** they want to it. I dunno sounds kinda selfish when you have a bunch of whiny fans yelling "THIS IS NOT JUST YOUR MOVIE, IT'S OURS TOO!".

 

Ah, but you're also being uptight, by insisting that fans must accept the latest changes, and we're jerks if we don't. The fans are NOT saying that the flimmakers are not allowed to make changes. We're saying "wow, look at the changes they made... they're stupid!" and at least people like me (and a large number of fans outside) are saying "look, do what you want, just let me buy the original if I want to, since it was better anyway).

 

The "apologists" (is that a fair term) for Lucas are saying that Lucas has every right to make changes and fans are wrong to criticism him for it... because Lucas made Star Wars and he has every right... (tautology).

 

The apologists aren't even saying they LIKE the changes better or why they were necessary, they are only 'defending' Lucas's right to make them and then claiming fans have no right to complain about said changes.

 

They never consider why Lucas can't provide the originals. And don't give me the excuse that providing the originals would "cost money." Because he'd stand to make that money back easily enough based on the demand, plus it cost him more money to change the originals in the first place.

 

Once and for all, the problem is that Lucas pretends the old versions don't exist and refuses to provide them, unlike most other directors/producers of popular movies and franchises. Lucas is the one being anal, making odd excuses for his behavior, and the apologists are bending over backwards to tar and feather fans who point this out.

 

And Kurgan, are you gonna complain that they didn't release the Star Wars DVD's in monotrack?

 

Only if the movies were released in theaters only in monotrack.

[Kurgan]

I'd rather have a well-developed character rather than one just based on his scary voice. I dunno, is that just me? I mean, with Vader, his scary voice was part of him, I mean, he is a scary guy. Even looks scary. He's menacing walking into the Tantive IV inspecting the damage... then strangling the ship's captain. But Boba just doesn't need to be scary. I mean, he gets eaten by the Sarlacc like a fool. He's no more scary than a Stormtrooper!

 

Since Fett has so little going for him in the first place, I think every little bit helps. He's supposed to be a feared bounty hunter, and he's the one who gets to Han, they spend a lot of time on him vs. the other bounty hunters who are all obviously intended to be scary-looking or threatening. It fits in with his character as portrayed on screen.

 

Fett fans from the EU may want him to appear "more human" or "more chivalrous" or something so perhaps they could create an excuse, but I'm not buying that changing his voice to Temuera Morrison somehow improves his character in ESB.

[Jan Gaarni]

According to LucasFilm reps, this was "a creative decision."

 

If you buy that...

No, I don't.

 

And ANH seems to be the only one of the three that has this problem.

[El Sitherino]

Only if the movies were released in theaters only in monotrack.

They were, the few stereo editions used a faux stereo mockup.

 

And Lucas does have a right to do what he wants to his movie. Considering it's his. And Lucas isn't the only one to deny the original version to be sold. Blade Runner: Director's Cut is the only edition sold on DVD. You can't get the original on DVD, Scott refuses to allow it to be released. There are several other titles as well, I just can't remember names at this moment. And it's not apologetics, it's called "the movies are his property, he can do what he wants with them."

 

If he doesn't want to release the original version, he doesn't have to. It's not about money it's about what he wants to do.

 

but I'm not buying that changing his voice to Temuera Morrison somehow improves his character in ESB.

K. I don't think anyone really cares.

[Jan Gaarni]

I care.

 

Though I don't have such a big problem with that part, but I do feel Boba Fett lost something when they changed his voice. The same way with Han losing something when he didn't just gun down Greedo after being threatened on his life by him.

[Kurgan]

They were, the few stereo editions used a faux stereo mockup.

 

And Lucas does have a right to do what he wants to his movie. Considering it's his. And Lucas isn't the only one to deny the original version to be sold. Blade Runner: Director's Cut is the only edition sold on DVD. You can't get the original on DVD, Scott refuses to allow it to be released. There are several other titles as well, I just can't remember names at this moment. And it's not apologetics, it's called "the movies are his property, he can do what he wants with them."

 

Good point about RS. It's still apologetics of course. It takes no effort to release the old versions, it would be profitable and its what a lot of fans want, yet he stubbornly refuses to do so. These fans complain and then the apologists defend Lucas by attacking them as "whiners" and such. You're satisfied and happy with your updated version, and it just happens to be the only version available, thanks to Lucas's decision.

 

Have more directors refused to release the original versions on DVD than have released them? I guess I didn't do an official tally, but it seems more than a few have chosen to do so, and that's the right decision when it comes to classic movies. I have no problem with restoration, but that's different than outright alteration and bastardisation.

 

If he doesn't want to release the original version, he doesn't have to. It's not about money it's about what he wants to do.

 

Exactly. He's doing this "because he can" not because its logical or because he wants to give the fans what they want. It's still a stupid decision, ultimately. Is it wrong to call him on it? I don't think so.

 

K. I don't think anyone really cares.

 

Right, just like nobody cares about any of the other changes made to the movies. See, if that were true, you would never have to even open your mouth, but here you are being an apologist, meaning somebody does care (and don't go saying "It's only you Kurgan"). Pretending other opinions don't exist won't make them disappear.

 

I guess what I'm really getting at here is that the apologists want us to "shut up" and "stop complaining" because Lucas is right. Despite his being the creator of Star Wars, he can still be wrong, I'd say.

 

 

The issue of soundtracks is an easy one, just put each audio track on the DVD disc. There's room! And let the listener decide. Otherwise you're say "no, you can't see the original, only this later, altered version which is not original."

[El Sitherino]

So not making a big deal out of something so trivial makes me an apologist? Well, I suppose if that's what you wish to think. In the end, I'm just glad we got anything at all, we could just be stuck with the film reels. If all of this makes me some villian to the fanboys, then so be it.

[Prime]

Good point about RS. It's still apologetics of course. It takes no effort to release the old versions, it would be profitable and its what a lot of fans want, yet he stubbornly refuses to do so.

Isn't it funny how many people blasts Lucas these days for being a money-grabbing, corporate sellout, and yet when he makes a decision that is obviously not motivated by money, he gets blasted for that as well.

 

These fans complain and then the apologists defend Lucas by attacking them as "whiners" and such. You're satisfied and happy with your updated version, and it just happens to be the only version available, thanks to Lucas's decision.

So people who defend Lucas deserve a derogatory name, but those who complain when they don't get what they want do not? I'd buy the original if it came out, but I understand why Lucas decided not to. I guess that makes me a whiny apologist.

 

Have more directors refused to release the original versions on DVD than have released them? I guess I didn't do an official tally, but it seems more than a few have chosen to do so, and that's the right decision when it comes to classic movies. I have no problem with restoration, but that's different than outright alteration and bastardisation.

Peter Jackson said he'd do the same thing with various things in the TTT and the like. Most of the comments made by other directors about Lucas and alterations/upgrades in general have been "I wish I had the time/money to do it too."

 

The Abyss is another one film whose ending got the same treatment DVD-wise. Same with Alexander as a much more recent example.

 

Is Tolkien an asshole as well for not allowing the original version of the Hobbit to be published after it was altered? He made changes to an original work so that it was more in line with his future vision.

 

Why is it acceptable for all these artists and not for Lucas? Is it acceptable for none of them? If so, why is Lucas the one that needs to be blasted?

 

Exactly. He's doing this "because he can" not because its logical

I don't see how you can say there is no logic behind it. He has explained clearly what the logic is: The updated versions are what he views as his finished works, and he doesn't want older and potentially contradictory versions to also be distributed, as he views them as incomplete. This is likely the same feelings that Tolkien, RS, and the others had as well, rightly or wrongly.

 

It's still a stupid decision, ultimately. Is it wrong to call him on it? I don't think so.

It's only a stupid decision in that some fans didn't get what they want and feel that they are owned something by the creator. It is not a stupid decision in terms of trying to have only the "unified/complete" version of the artists work available.

 

Again, I don't like all the changes, but I understand why he would want to do what he has done. And he is not alone in taking that path.

[TK-8252]

Since Fett has so little going for him in the first place, I think every little bit helps. He's supposed to be a feared bounty hunter,

 

Being eaten by the Sarlacc helps make him so feared?

 

and he's the one who gets to Han

 

So did Greedo. And we know how he turned out.

 

they spend a lot of time on him vs. the other bounty hunters who are all obviously intended to be scary-looking or threatening. It fits in with his character as portrayed on screen.

 

Sorry but... someone who's scary doesn't get eaten by the Sarlacc, period. And George has said how he never expected Boba to become such a huge character, because originally he was just another of Jabba's thugs... with a fancy suit.

[Kurgan]

So not making a big deal out of something so trivial makes me an apologist? Well, I suppose if that's what you wish to think. In the end, I'm just glad we got anything at all, we could just be stuck with the film reels. If all of this makes me some villian to the fanboys, then so be it.

 

An apologist is somebody who's on that person's side defending them. That's what I see you doing in favor of Lucas. If it "wasn't a big deal" you'd have no motivation to "respond" to people like me who "whine."

 

I see now you're using the "well whatever scraps Lucas gives us is good enough" argument. Thankfully the "whiners" who wanted a DVD set got listened to, not the people who were happy with VHS, back in the day.

[El Sitherino]

An apologist is somebody who's on that person's side defending them. That's what I see you doing in favor of Lucas. If it "wasn't a big deal" you'd have no motivation to "respond" to people like me who "whine."

But I'm not defending Lucas, only throwing out your tiresome arguements.

I have motivation because you and other whiners take any and every chance to go "OMGLUCASDON'TLISTENTOFANS!" and other annoying crap.

 

I see now you're using the "well whatever scraps Lucas gives us is good enough" argument. Thankfully the "whiners" who wanted a DVD set got listened to, not the people who were happy with VHS, back in the day.

Wrong, I bitched that we didn't get DVD's but I didn't attack Lucas, nor did I bring it up every single moment I heard mention of Lucas' name. I think you just like attacking Lucas because it's easy to attack someone when things don't go your way.

[Kurgan]

Isn't it funny how many people blasts Lucas these days for being a money-grabbing, corporate sellout, and yet when he makes a decision that is obviously not motivated by money, he gets blasted for that as well.

 

Actually it's not hypocrisy on our part. Lucas "responded" to the fans who wanted the originals saying that it would "cost millions of dollars" to make them available. This from the guy who releases a dozen versions of the same movie or even the same movies multiple times in a short span of time. It's odd behavior, and odd logic on his part, I will admit.

 

 

So people who defend Lucas deserve a derogatory name, but those who complain when they don't get what they want do not?

 

Quite the opposite. "Apologist" is a descriptive term, not a derogatory name. It means you're defending him in rhetoric. On the contrary the fans who complain about Lucas's dumping on the classic trilogy get called "obsessed" "fanboys" "whiners" "crybabies" "nerds" etc. They paint Lucas as a martyr for his art, and these fans as heartless jerks who just whine to hear themselves whine. Now we can add "hypocrite" to the list of slanders against those who dare question Lucas. Joy...

 

I'd buy the original if it came out, but I understand why Lucas decided not to. I guess that makes me a whiny apologist.

 

At least you admit that much. I'm sick of hearing the Lucas line spit back with "the originals no longer exist, this is the true definitive vision."

 

You can be whiny and not an apologist, and vice versa. No need to strawman.

 

Peter Jackson said he'd do the same thing with various things in the TTT and the like. Most of the comments made by other directors about Lucas and alterations/upgrades in general have been "I wish I had the time/money to do it too."

 

And what about the director's who do have the time and money and yet still make the originals available? As I see it the "original being available" is a freebie. They've basically already spent the money to create it, etc. The bastardized versions are what takes the time and effort. I figure not releasing the originals is a way to jack up the sales of the "improved edition" when you fear that it may not be viewed as an improvement (ie: if the originals were available, the super special edition might suffer in sales). How can Peter Jackson do the same thing with the LOTR movies and the like? He's already released both versions (theatrical and Extended) of all three of them on DVD. Do you mean in relation to some future new format version?

 

The Abyss is another one film whose ending got the same treatment DVD-wise. Same with Alexander as a much more recent example.

 

Note sure about Alexander (never seen it, period), but didn't the Abyss feature both endings viewable on the disc? It's been awhile, so I could be wrong.

 

Is Tolkien an asshole as well for not allowing the original version of the Hobbit to be published after it was altered? He made changes to an original work so that it was more in line with his future vision.

 

You'll have to fill me in on that one. He very well could be. Don't act like I'm saying Lucas is the only artist who's made mistakes or snubbed his fans in strange ways.

 

Why is it acceptable for all these artists and not for Lucas?

 

There's where you're strawmanning. I never said Lucas was the only guilty party. If somebody else famous did it, does that let Lucas off the hook? I don't think so.

 

Lucas needs to be "blasted" because it's a stupid thing to do, which shows contempt for his fans and the legacy of his own work. I understand he's a perfectionist and a bit neurotic, etc. whatever, but somebody in his inner circle needs to sit him down and say "Look George..." but that'll never happen. And if he loses some money, that isn't likely to make much of a difference either. He does listen to fans whining though, sometimes.

 

I don't see how you can say there is no logic behind it. He has explained clearly what the logic is: The updated versions are what he views as his finished works, and he doesn't want older and potentially contradictory versions to also be distributed, as he views them as incomplete.

 

He still views them as incomplete, and in fact the new versions are more problematic than the originals. He complained about unfinished effects, lack of technology etc, but clearly the Special Editions were lacking (they got dated fast) and some changes were actually a step back. That he changed some of the changes in the 2004 editions is clear enough of that. Likewise the gaffes in the 2004 editions indicate the need for another "draft" of the movies in a couple of years, and so it goes...

 

Since they'll never be finished, and he'll never be satisfied, we'll never see the end of it, until he dies or runs out of money.

 

This is likely the same feelings that Tolkien, RS, and the others had as well, rightly or wrongly.

 

Wrongly, of course.

 

It's only a stupid decision in that some fans didn't get what they want and feel that they are owned something by the creator.

 

So you turn it around and say the FANS are the stupid ones, to blame for liking the original work, not a later bastardisation?

 

Once a work has entered the public consciousness and been accepted by generations of fans, the artist can't just step in there and ruin it, and then refuse to allow the original to remain anywhere in public memory. It's egotistical and silly. Does he have the LEGAL RIGHT to do this? Obviously. But it's still stupid.

 

It is not a stupid decision in terms of trying to have only the "unified/complete" version of the artists work available.

 

Which is completely arbitrary anyway. He introduced just as many inconsistencies and goofs into the movies with each new revision than existed there before.

 

Again, I don't like all the changes, but I understand why he would want to do what he has done. And he is not alone in taking that path.

 

Perhaps Lucas is just one of the few with the guts, the money, and the bad taste to do so, I agree with you there. Thankfully enough artists know to leave well enough alone.

 

This reminds me of that famous Far Side cartoon where the two Egyptian sculptors are working on the Sphinx. The guy on the ground is yelling back up at his buddy, who's astride the statue, hammer and chisel in hand looking down sadly at the nose, which has fallen to the ground... "Look, I said, 'There, good Nose, Good Nose' but no, you had to had to to hit it one more time..."

 

Or for another example (as long as we're talking about noses), look at Michael Jackson's face. Knowing when to quit is a good thing.

[Kurgan]

But I'm not defending Lucas, only throwing out your tiresome arguements.

I have motivation because you and other whiners take any and every chance to go "OMGLUCASDON'TLISTENTOFANS!" and other annoying crap.

 

You're still defending him. Can you deny that you're defending him? No, you can't. And your arguments defending him are just as tiresome.

 

Wrong, I bitched that we didn't get DVD's but I didn't attack Lucas, nor did I bring it up every single moment I heard mention of Lucas' name. I think you just like attacking Lucas because it's easy to attack someone when things don't go your way.

 

I'm glad to hear you bitched. Kudos!

 

Do I attack Lucas? Do I "bring it up every single moment I heard mention of Lucas' name"? Do I LIKE attacking Lucas? Am I secretly complaining about Lucas as an excuse for my own personal shortcomings in life?

 

No I guess not. So your argument is a strawman. Perhaps you're frustrated when people don't agree with you. And you like debating me, which is understandable.

[Kurgan]

Being eaten by the Sarlacc helps make him so feared?

 

Falling down a hole makes Palpatine feared? Getting choked by a dancing girl makes Jabba feared? etc.

 

I'm talking about the implied threat of each of the Bounty Hunters in Empire Strikes Back. And out of all of them, Fett was the only one to accomplish his mission. I'm no Fett fanboy, I despise the silly "wanking" of his character in the Expanded Universe (bringing him back to life, making him defeat the unbeatable vong when he's a totering old geezer, and giving him miniature armor as a kid and collecting bounties already and doing assasinations... plus the ridiculous treatment of his father, killing Jedi with his bare hands, whatever!). He was a character with few lines, and little to do except stand around acting tough.

 

The fact that Vader hired these guys alone is proof that they are supposed to be badasses. All of them were thrown together at the last minute in terms of costumes. Fett himself is a recycling of a rejected Vader concept. In any event, unlike most minor thugs Fett continues on into the last movie (I won't mention the other instances since they were created after the obsessed Fett fandom was established).

 

What exactly are you arguing for? That it's good his voice was changed because you like Temuera Morrison as an actor? His delivery of the lines was hardly very good. He did a much better job with the Clones he voice acted.

 

So did Greedo. And we know how he turned out.

 

Right. The bad guys end up in bad ways, no argument there.

 

Anyway, you try explaining why Fett is so popular if you don't like my reasons. I'm arguing that Lucas was using this minor character to have a presence. If he was meant to be a doofus, like Greedo, he could have done that in other ways. I don't see how changing his voice adds to his character in any way.

 

Sorry but... someone who's scary doesn't get eaten by the Sarlacc, period.

 

Why? Does the Sarlacc spit you out if you're scary? I don't follow you there.

 

And George has said how he never expected Boba to become such a huge character, because originally he was just another of Jabba's thugs... with a fancy suit.

 

Exactly right. I don't dispute this. But do you think he was meant to be comic relief, or a credible threat? (apart from the much greater threat of Vader of course).