Yoda's ability to handle force lightning attacks

[Blaze629]

Some good stuff there for sure Kurgan. You asked: "What is maliciousness anyway?" That is a VERY good question actually. Let me go ahead and give examples of what most of us, I would think, consider to be "malicious" intent using the lightning and push powers as examples. Some of this ties into what Hai-Wan pointed out before and what you were saying about war and "rules of engagement" if you want to call it that.

 

If lightning is used to attack an opponent regardless of circumstance, I would think this falls into the "malicious" category as was the case with Dooku in Episode II and Sidious in Episode III(a few times lol). At the same time though, if someone uses force push on someone who is non-threatening, to knock them over a cliff to their death, this I would think is also considered to be a "malicious" act of course. If someone were to use force push to toss an object and impale someone else with it just because they felt like it, then chalk up another "malicious" act. In both of the push examples, the push did not actually do the killing. The fall did in the first example and the impaling object did in the second. But the force was used to assist in the killing so both are still "malicious" of course. Using the force as Yoda did in ROTS to knock Sidious back or to knock out the royal guards even, does not fall into the "malicious" category to me. The intent was to stun or incapacitate the opponent not to necessarily kill or injure. Did it hurt? It better have or Yoda would have been in BIG trouble LOL!!!!!

 

Kurgan you asked if it was "aggression in general" or "aggressive use of the force" that I was concerned about. My answer to that would be I am more concerned with aggressive use of the force more than anything else. To inflict death, permanent injury, or cruelty on someone is my main concern. I think that Yoda was telling Luke that to inflict these things through direct use of the force was what he had to train himself to not do under ANY circumstances. Take from this what you will.

[Kurgan]

So it would be okay for Yoda to just strangle Palpatine to death with his bare hands, but not okay for him to use force choke to accomplish the same goal?

 

(And if you want to go with intent, let's say in BOTH cases Yoda takes no pleasure in the act of killing, and thinks he's doing the galaxy "a favor" by removing this tyrant from existence.)

 

Just an example for clarification here.

[Blaze629]

If it had come to that Kurgan, Yoda probably would have strangled him with his hands. Call "The Flanneled One" again LOL. Maybe he can answer that better than me.

[Kurgan]

Was their intent to kill the Viceroy, or mearly capture him?

 

Your guess is as good as mine. The author of the commentary above feels they were going to kill him. Would they be justified in doing so? After all, he was the one giving the orders to have them killed. Then again, they may have been able to just "arrest" him and commandeer the ship somehow. I can see them dismembering him if he for instance, drew a blaster as on them when they finally came into the control room.

 

Well, several recent sources regarding the films have indicated that Force Lightning is actually the exclusive domain of the Sith, and is in fact called Sith Lightning.

 

Which would mean we have to throw out vast chunks of previously written sources which indicate that Lightning is a neutral power, that can be used by "Light" Jedi and Dark Jedi, not just Sith. If it was exclusively Sith, and no Sith have been seen for 1,000 years, then how did the Jedi know how to counter it so easily? (Other than Anakin the hothead of course!).

 

I think the whole "knowledge and defense and never to attack" line is taken too literally. I think what is being imparted on Luke is a philosphy that helps prevent a fall to the dark side.

 

Fair enough. Most people are taking it to mean that to use the force in battle is the dark side, therefore whenever they see a Jedi using a Force power in battle they suddenly get this double standard, that it's not really aggressive or violent, but when the same thing is done by a Sith they call it the Dark Side (but they are unwilling to say that the Jedi doing the power is "skirting the darkside" unless it's Anakin).

 

The use of the Force should not be used to attack/invade/destroy others in the general sense.

 

And yet all that the Jedi are is about using the Force to augment, enhance and facilitate their role as fighters. The fact is that the Jedi use violence to achieve their goals, and this necessarily means that the Force is used in the cause of violence. Is this right or wrong? You decide, but I think regardless people have this notion that "a Jedi would never do such a thing" when we have mountains of evidence to the contrary. Either the Jedi we're given are supposed to be "bad Jedi" or else their theory is inaccurate or incomplete.

 

All the instances of Force push and the like that I can think of were used when the Jedi was coming under attack from something.

 

So you need to define "coming under attack." Does this mean "enemy rushing towards you about to strike?" "Somebody with a weapon in the room?" "Somebody who is a threat to the peace?" "Somebody who's an enemy of the state?" "somebody who's a member of the Sith cult?" Etc.

 

What constitutes a threat? Is pre-emptive action okay? Vader is standing there with his saber ignited, but he's just standing there. Obi-Wan opens up and attacks him FIRST.

 

Jabba is talking tough to Luke, but Luke uses the Force to draw a blaster and attempt to shoot Jabba IN THE HEAD, FIRST. A guard stops him and this gives Jabba the opportunity to toss him into the rancor pit, but the point is, Luke made the first move.

 

Likewise Luke choked the two Gammoreans. Sure they put up their spears, but they didn't attack him, they just said "you can't pass here" (which is what crossing the spears means... it's like a police line). He didn't wait until they were taking actual swings at him.

 

Yoda pushes Palpatine's guards. Sure they look at him, but they may simply have been going to escort him out of the room or arrest him, not kill him. Clearly they were no match. So why didn't Yoda just use mind trick to wave them away? Etc.

 

Dooku's actions could be deemed "self defense" in his combat with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda.

 

Obi-Wan actually smiles at various points during combat in TPM and ROTS. Does that mean he's enjoying the combat and thus skirting the Dark Side? When he knows his opponents are outmatched doesn't that mean the combat was unnecessary?

 

I just get the idea people are painting the Jedi as pacifists, code vs. killing or code vs. violence. Their actions speak louder than their words.

 

Since they are protecting themselves this would fall under using the the Force for defense.

 

So everyone who uses the Force in combat is not attacking, but only defending, since in combat by definition you are trying to protect yourself (even, at least at the start of, Anakin's massacre of the Sandpeople, he is defending himself... since those guards come at him with spears, though one would be very hard pressed to argue that fleeing children would be a credible threat, as described in the non-film canon sources for AOTC).

 

So is it even possible to use the Dark Side in combat? If a Jedi can use the force against his opponent "for defense" they why can't a Jedi like Yoda use lightning? People have been saying "oh lightning is an attack, and Jedi can't attack, so it can't be used." Why can't you use lightning defensively?

 

Think about a police Taser or stun gun. They use electricity to cause PAIN to the target. Why? To incapacitate them without having to resort to using bullets, which are much more likely to cause permanent damage or death (non-lethal means are not 100% non-lethal after all, but still, the goal is to be less lethal). Why are the Jedi allowed to kill, but not cause pain? And why can't they cause pain in order to avoid killing? I don't get this logic. I'm not talking about torture, I'm talking about attacks that hurt their enemy, like say, cutting off a limb, or force pushing them into a wall.

 

I believe Force Lightning has been listed as a corruption of the Force and listed as a exclusive Sith/Dark Side power, in terms of the films anyway. The NJO of course allows everyone to use it in the name of justice and peace!

 

Can you cite the source? If the films, the highest source, say it's a corruption then we are still faced with the question of Yoda using lightning. Was he being corrupt in that moment? Is Yoda infallible?

 

Of course, there are some sacrifices for gameplay, which needs to be kept in mind when including them in the analysis.

 

Certainly, but it's not just the games that say you can use Lightning and not be a Sith.

 

But it appears that Yoda doesn't use (i.e. create) Force Lightning at any point, he mearly deflects it.

 

In Rots he clearly absorbs it (or tries to, before it blows up in his face). But in AOTC it appears instead that he throws lightning of his own during the battle. Even if you insist that he "absorbs and then redirects" he's still using lightning. And if that lightning hit Dooku without him blocking it, he'd have been hurt, or possibly even killed. So what do you call that?

 

It's like if your enemy throws a knife at you, and you catch the knife, and then throw it back. Could you logically say "I didn't use a knife"? That would be silly. I think the same applies here. And I don't think it could be argued that Yoda HAD to release the energy in the form of lightning directed back at Dooku, because notice that last barrage (where he says "Much to learn you still have) he simply absorbs the last part, and doesn't toss anything back.

 

I think we have an example of Yoda using Force Lightning and nobody wants to admit it, because they have preconcieved notion that using lightning = Sith Dark Side corruption, and Yoda, being infallible as a Jedi, would never do such a thing! Argggh.

 

Both the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith scripts state that Yoda deflected lightning used by the Sith:

 

Which doesn't matter, because the films are higher level than the scripts. Numerous discrepencies exist between the scripts and each of the Star Wars films. Yet we don't say the Script is correct while the film is not, if they contradict.

 

AOTC:

YODA deflects Force lightning thrown at him by the enraged COUNT DOOKU.

 

Dooku looked pretty calm in that scene, and Yoda was grimacing like he was upset. If anything it's Dooku who deflects the lightning. Yoda grabs it and tosses it back at him. Then they both start tossing lightning AT EACH OTHER at the same time!

 

ROTS:

The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

 

Clearly this did not happen. Yoda took the first barrage full in the chest and was knocked down. Later he absorbs the lightning in real time. He never deflects it. It stops on the palms of his hands, rather than "surrounding" him. He doesn't reflect or deflect anything. It finally blows up in both their faces.

 

The lightning hitting Yoda's palms wasn't bouncing off and flying away in some other direction, it was like his hands were vacuum cleaners sucking up dust. In fact he had little energy balls (or flat spheres) projected from his palms that the lightning was seemingly "going into."

 

Entirely too common, IMO.

 

Agreed. If we ignore the EU it can become a little less complicated, but I think it still points strongly against the notion that Yoda never used Force Lightning or that Jedi aren't allowed to attack using the Force (or that they don't do such a thing, even if there is a rule against it that few or no Jedi follow).

 

I'm not saying Yoda is evil, or that he's a secret Sith, only that he somehow uses Force Lightning. So this means either it's not forbidden for a Jedi, he's not a perfect Jedi, or Force Lightning is not always a Dark Side or "Sith Only" power.

[darthzeta]

well you should know yoda is not the best fighter but he is one of the wisest. the force is used with wisdom. when dooku fired the first attack yado reflected it back . when he did is again yoda didnt asorbe it he cancled it. that why they said the fight had to come down to fight of lightsaber duel.

[Kurgan]

Some have wondered why it had to be decided with a saber duel. Clearly the contest between Palpatine and Yoda was decided by their use of the Force, NOT their skills with sabers.

 

Perhaps Dooku meant that they both seemed to be equally good with Force attacks. But then the Jedi's use of a lightsaber is part and parcel of his use of the Force. Without the Force Yoda would not have been able to fight Dooku at all, since he's this totering old thing that needs a cane. The Force gives him Muppet Power.

 

Dooku as well is an old man in his character and in real life the actor portraying him. Christopher Lee didn't do any mid-air somersaults, believe it or not. So they're still using the Force, just in a different way!

[MachineCult]

Jedi use their power for defence, not offence, which means attacking someone during a duel or someone firing a blaster at them.

 

Force lightning is purely an offensive attack and thus is not taught or practiced by the Jedi. The Sith however love all that stuff, and use offensive force powers, i.e. grip and lightning.

 

Yoda is obviously has a great knowledge of the force, perhaps the best, and he is the only one seen to absorb force lightning attacks wheras other jedi dealt with it by merely deflecting it with their lightsabers.

 

Yoda, seeking a deeper attunement to the force and the powers of the force, has studied Sith powers and learnt how to deal with them, something other Jedi have not.

[darthzeta]

everyone uses the force . everytime. its those tiny cells that are every where. some people are strong in the force and master it. the dark side is stronger than the light so palpatine threw the stands while it took a lot for yoda. also as someone else mentioned yoda had major heart ache cause of order 66, so yoda was tired. yoda lost when he dropped his saber.

[MachineCult]

How old are you darthzeta? Your post didn't make much sense.

[Blaze629]

Some have wondered why it had to be decided with a saber duel. Clearly the contest between Palpatine and Yoda was decided by their use of the Force, NOT their skills with sabers.

 

And man would I have liked about 30 seconds more of them locking sabres too!!!!! This is one fight scene I intend to wear out come November 1st.

[darthzeta]

sorry my english is not very good. im 16

[Prime]

Which would mean we have to throw out vast chunks of previously written sources which indicate that Lightning is a neutral power, that can be used by "Light" Jedi and Dark Jedi, not just Sith.

What, EU sources? I thought they were overwritten by G-canon. But in any event, lightning is a dark side ability only at least.

 

If it was exclusively Sith, and no Sith have been seen for 1,000 years, then how did the Jedi know how to counter it so easily? (Other than Anakin the hothead of course!).

Because the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years. Being such slaves to tradition they likely were still prepared for such things. Hell, lightsaber-wielding foes were almost just as unheard of over the same 1000 years, and yet the Jedi still train in lightsaber dueling. There were likely lots of things the Jedi were trained in that were not always useful in the present day.

 

Fair enough. Most people are taking it to mean that to use the force in battle is the dark side, therefore whenever they see a Jedi using a Force power in battle they suddenly get this double standard, that it's not really aggressive or violent, but when the same thing is done by a Sith they call it the Dark Side (but they are unwilling to say that the Jedi doing the power is "skirting the darkside" unless it's Anakin).

Personally I don't think that using the Force in certain ways in battle is "dark".

 

And yet all that the Jedi are is about using the Force to augment, enhance and facilitate their role as fighters. The fact is that the Jedi use violence to achieve their goals, and this necessarily means that the Force is used in the cause of violence. Is this right or wrong? You decide, but I think regardless people have this notion that "a Jedi would never do such a thing" when we have mountains of evidence to the contrary. Either the Jedi we're given are supposed to be "bad Jedi" or else their theory is inaccurate or incomplete.

Indeed. The view of Jedi a pacifists is clearly incorrect. Just as viewing police as pacifists is.

 

So you need to define "coming under attack." Does this mean "enemy rushing towards you about to strike?" "Somebody with a weapon in the room?" "Somebody who is a threat to the peace?" "Somebody who's an enemy of the state?" "somebody who's a member of the Sith cult?" Etc.

Fair enough. But has any Jedi in the films used the force to directly (i.e. Force inflicted damage) attack an opponent?

 

Jabba is talking tough to Luke, but Luke uses the Force to draw a blaster and attempt to shoot Jabba IN THE HEAD, FIRST. A guard stops him and this gives Jabba the opportunity to toss him into the rancor pit, but the point is, Luke made the first move.

I know it is a sutle difference, but Luke is using the Force to grab a blaster, not attack Jabba directly (with a choke, lightning, push, etc.). I agree that in the real world this is a pretty fine seperation, but I chalk it up to the movie kung fu style of philosphy: only study kung fu to defend yourself. But cinematically use it to wipe the floor with everyone. But this is the sort of seperation I've kind of applied for years. YMMV.

 

Likewise Luke choked the two Gammoreans. Sure they put up their spears, but they didn't attack him, they just said "you can't pass here" (which is what crossing the spears means... it's like a police line). He didn't wait until they were taking actual swings at him.

I believe this was in fact a dark side act. I can't remember for sure, but I believe the RPG also states as much.

 

Yoda pushes Palpatine's guards. Sure they look at him, but they may simply have been going to escort him out of the room or arrest him, not kill him. Clearly they were no match.

Well, they move towards him presumably to prevent him from getting Palpatine. So for cinematic purposes I think this falls under defending himself.

 

So why didn't Yoda just use mind trick to wave them away? Etc.

They weren't weak-minded.

 

Dooku's actions could be deemed "self defense" in his combat with Obi-Wan, Anakin and Yoda.

But he used the Force to directly attack those dudes. The dudes did not counter similarly.

 

Obi-Wan actually smiles at various points during combat in TPM and ROTS. Does that mean he's enjoying the combat and thus skirting the Dark Side? When he knows his opponents are outmatched doesn't that mean the combat was unnecessary?

Was Kenobi using the Force directly to attack in that situation?

 

I just get the idea people are painting the Jedi as pacifists, code vs. killing or code vs. violence. Their actions speak louder than their words.

True. The Jedi are not pacifists, and I don't think they've ever claimed they were.

 

So everyone who uses the Force in combat is not attacking, but only defending, since in combat by definition you are trying to protect yourself (even, at least at the start of, Anakin's massacre of the Sandpeople, he is defending himself... since those guards come at him with spears, though one would be very hard pressed to argue that fleeing children would be a credible threat, as described in the non-film canon sources for AOTC).

I still think how what aspects and in what way the force is used is relavent. And did Anakin use the force on them (chokes and lightning) or chop them up? I can't remember what the novel says.

 

So is it even possible to use the Dark Side in combat? If a Jedi can use the force against his opponent "for defense" they why can't a Jedi like Yoda use lightning? People have been saying "oh lightning is an attack, and Jedi can't attack, so it can't be used." Why can't you use lightning defensively?

Because force lightning is a corruption of the Force and requires the dark side to use.

 

If the films, the highest source, say it's a corruption then we are still faced with the question of Yoda using lightning. Was he being corrupt in that moment? Is Yoda infallible?

Again, I don't think Yoda was generating the lightning. He as directing and repulsing it back at Dooku as also stated on starwars.com. And as such he was not being corrupt. He was directing Dooku's attack back at him, as Windu did to Palpatine. Also similar to the Jedi redirecting blaster fire back at their attacker.

 

I think we have an example of Yoda using Force Lightning and nobody wants to admit it, because they have preconcieved notion that using lightning = Sith Dark Side corruption, and Yoda, being infallible as a Jedi, would never do such a thing! Argggh.

starwars.com uses the terms "Sith Lightning" and "Dark Side Lightning" in reference to Palpatine's attack on Windu as well as Palpatine's listed weapon.

 

Which doesn't matter, because the films are higher level than the scripts. Numerous discrepencies exist between the scripts and each of the Star Wars films. Yet we don't say the Script is correct while the film is not, if they contradict.

Starwars.com also calls it Sith and dark side lightning, in all cases in the "movie" section.

 

Dooku looked pretty calm in that scene, and Yoda was grimacing like he was upset.

Perhaps grimacing in effort?

 

Clearly this did not happen. Yoda took the first barrage full in the chest and was knocked down. Later he absorbs the lightning in real time. He never deflects it. It stops on the palms of his hands, rather than "surrounding" him. He doesn't reflect or deflect anything. It finally blows up in both their faces.

 

The lightning hitting Yoda's palms wasn't bouncing off and flying away in some other direction, it was like his hands were vacuum cleaners sucking up dust. In fact he had little energy balls (or flat spheres) projected from his palms that the lightning was seemingly "going into."

Then are you happy with the term "repulsed"? In any event, pretected himself from the lightning. Again my point is, he did not generate the lightning, and so not corrupting the Force.

 

Agreed. If we ignore the EU it can become a little less complicated, but I think it still points strongly against the notion that Yoda never used Force Lightning or that Jedi aren't allowed to attack using the Force (or that they don't do such a thing, even if there is a rule against it that few or no Jedi follow).

Again, I think that it is clear that Yoda was not generating the Sith Lightning and was in fact deflecting it back at his attacker.

 

well you should know yoda is not the best fighter but he is one of the wisest.

Actually, it is indicated in several sources that he is in fact the greatest fighter of all the Jedi.

[Kurgan]

What, EU sources? I thought they were overwritten by G-canon (and certainly not fully consistent or free from error!). But in any event, lightning is a dark side ability only at least.

 

Whoa, dude, major reply. Sure they're overwritten if they contradict! If you don't mind that, no biggie.

 

Because the Jedi have been around for 25,000 years. Being such slaves to tradition they likely were still prepared for such things.

 

According to the ROTS novelisation they were completely unprepared for the Sith's latest plans. Why would they be training for 1,000 years to be ready to counter Sith lightning in case their extinct enemies rose from the dead, but be completely unprepared for a force user hiding in their upper government for the last decade?

 

Hell, lightsaber-wielding foes were almost just as unheard of over the same 1000 years, and yet the Jedi still train in lightsaber dueling. There were likely lots of things the Jedi were trained in that were not always useful in the present day.

 

Another excellent point. How do they know how to "duel"? They must duel with each other to practice. But at least there you have them training. Do you also have them training with lightning against each other behind the scenes though?

 

Personally I don't think that using the Force in certain ways in battle is "dark".

 

Indeed. The view of Jedi a pacifists is clearly incorrect. Just as viewing police as pacifists is.

 

Excellent, then we're not that far off, you and I. I'm mainly arguing with those who insist that Yoda couldn't have used the force offensively, much less used lightning, ever.

 

Fair enough. But has any Jedi in the films used the force to directly (i.e. Force inflicted damage) attack an opponent?

 

Yes. Force Push used by Qui Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Kit Fisto, and Anakin (and not just against droids in most cases, if that's an issue). Luke used Grip. Yoda used Lightning. All the Jedi use the Force to aid their lightsaber/martial arts attacks in killing or taking the first swing notably Obi-Wan in his later years and Mace Windu (some call this indirect so feel free to ignore this last part if you wish).

 

I know it is a sutle difference, but Luke is using the Force to grab a blaster, not attack Jabba directly (with a choke, lightning, push, etc.).

 

So if you setup a Guilotine with somebody's head on the chopping block, then used the force to "drop the blade" you wouldn't actually be using the Force to kill them, so this would be alright. But if you used the Force itself to rip their head from their body, this would be "wrong" (darkside)? Or if you used the Force to guide your lightsaber to their throat, to cut off their head, this would also not be "darkside"?

 

If that's true, using the Force to push somebody out a window or using the Force to drop a rock on somebody to kill them would both also be "not darkside." Would you agree with that?

 

 

I agree that in the real world this is a pretty fine seperation, but I chalk it up to the movie kung fu style of philosphy: only study kung fu to defend yourself. But cinematically use it to wipe the floor with everyone. But this is the sort of seperation I've kind of applied for years. YMMV.

 

Fair enough. In all sorts of movies, we "let the heroes off the hook" for any violence they commit, excessive or not. But I'm just saying in this case, if we were somehow in the Star Wars universe, and it was all real, how would we judge it? Would we just say killing and aggressive use of the Force is only wrong when done by Sith or turncoat Jedi?

 

I believe this was in fact a dark side act. I can't remember for sure, but I believe the RPG also states as much.

 

Ah yes, game mechanics. See my comments about them earlier.

 

I will admit that the RPGs have long influenced lazy EU writers, leading to some of the brain bugs we have today, but still. I'd say we can basically ignore a lot of it based on ideas of game balance/challenge and they're superceded by the movies.

 

Well, they move towards him presumably to prevent him from getting Palpatine. So for cinematic purposes I think this falls under defending himself.

 

That's pretty iffy. That would mean interfering with one's political goals gives one carte blanche in the use of force (here I mean physical force, so no pun intended!). This I think is sort of how the Jedi view themselves. They are a police force, and thus have been given vast police powers and oversight. While they are sworn to protect and serve, they can do things the ordinary citizen wouldn't be allowed to do.

 

They weren't weak-minded.

 

How do we know that? Most guards in movies are stupid. In real life I'm sure you'd pick somebody who isn't an idiot, but ceremonial guards... aren't they usually chosen because of loyalty and because they look good in a uniform more than anything? You want a guy who can muscle out some would-be assassin, not somebody who's smarter than you are. In any case, he could have used the Force to disarm them, etc. There were an infinite number of things he could have done. He chose to slam them against the wall into unconsciousness (? they never get back up again, they might as well have been dead for all we know).

 

But he used the Force to directly attack those dudes. The dudes did not counter similarly.

 

Yoda used lightning against him (and Yoda later Force Pushes Palpatine). I think that qualifies. Is a Jedi allowed to use the Force to attack Sith? Perhaps one could argue that the Jedi hate the Sith so much and consider them so dangerous, that they throw out their ethical combat rules when it comes to facing them. Perhaps... but then the fact that they seem to have no qualms about using the Force against common foes doesn't support that conclusion. Obi-Wan force pushes Grevious.

 

Was Kenobi using the Force directly to attack in that situation?

 

No, not that I can see. To me it was an example of a Jedi seeming to enjoy combat (more against the "pacificist" and "abhor violence" type of arguments). Compare this with Mace Windu's demeaner in AOTC and ROTS. It's just a counter to the non-warrior mentality some have with the Jedi.

 

True. The Jedi are not pacifists, and I don't think they've ever claimed they were.

 

Right, exactly! I just think much of the "Jedi would never do that" rhetoric comes from an interpretation of Yoda's lines in ESB. He says "wars not make one great" (implying war is wrong, so a Jedi would not participate in war). And he says "the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" (implying a Jedi would never attack someone, using the Force). Both appear to be utter nonesense when we see the prequels. Some call this a blatant contradiction and that Lucas has betrayed the logic of his own story. Others see this simply as Yoda's changing philosophy over time (I think that's perfectly reasonable), OR revisionist history on his part in order to try to take no chances with Luke, whom he has little time to train so in-depth, and whose great power means they can't afford to lose him to the Dark Side.

 

I still think how what aspects and in what way the force is used is relavent. And did Anakin use the force on them (chokes and lightning) or chop them up? I can't remember what the novel says.

 

One could argue that Yoda is simply more knowledgable about the Force than these other guys. Apparently (at least in the films) lightning is pretty rare. One person speculated that Yoda had spent his life studying the Dark Side teachings, in addition to his normal Jedi stuff. So he not only learned how to counter lightning, he most assuredly learned how to use it.

 

Anakin's sudden use of Force Grip is a bit interesting as well. Did Palpatine teach it to him after he "converted"? Or did he just use his imagination to apply the use of telekinesis (a basic power most Jedi seem to have mastered) to something a little more aggressive that he probably wouldn't have been allowed to use before? But lightning feels different because it's an energy attack we can see, all flashy and such. Telekinesis is a force, granted, it feels like gravity or wind or something. Lightning is more dramatic.

 

Because force lightning is a corruption of the Force and requires the dark side to use.

 

But SAYS WHO... and where? That's the key. If this info is never stated in the movies, where are we getting it from? And even if it were, why can't Yoda use this corruption of the Force?

 

Again, I don't think Yoda was generating the lightning. He as directing and repulsing it back at Dooku as also stated on starwars.com.

 

So you're basing this entire argument on what Starwars.com says, that Lightning can only be used by tapping into the Dark Side? (and it being assumed that Yoda could never do this, despite what we see onscreen!)

 

StarWars.com is not canon (not that I've ever heard anyway! unless they're quoting Lucas himself). But anyway, the instance that everyone agrees is Yoda "absorbing" the lightning is completely different in mechanism from what happens later. So even if he was somehow "not using lightning" by "repulsing it" in one shot, he apparently is doing something else later.

 

It's like this (again to use the knife in place of lightning to get a better picture of what's going on):

 

First Dooku throws a knife at Yoda, who catches it and throws it back at him. Dooku blocks the knife with his hand so it falls away to the ground. Then Dooku starts throwing knife after knife at Yoda. Yoda also throws knife after knife, and each time, two knives meet in mid air and fall to the ground. Finally at the end, Yoda catches the last knife, and puts it away in his belt.

 

The way you're describing it, rather Dooku just continually throws knives at Yoda, who catches them and drops them on the floor.

 

Now using the knife analogy with Palpatine, it's like Palpy is throwing knife after knife at Yoda, who's catching all of them. But eventually his arms are overburdened full of a huge pile of knives, and the heavy "stack" falls over, knocking them both down.

 

 

And as such he was not being corrupt.

 

How do we know though? We're assuming Yoda can't make mistakes or be tempted by the Dark Side. And yet we have people like Anakin and Mace Windu who can apparently skirt the Dark Side (the latter is an EU interpretation, granted, but still, he supposedly uses the Dark Side everytime he goes into saber combat, and yet he never "falls" as we know it).

 

He was directing Dooku's attack back at him, as Windu did to Palpatine. Also similar to the Jedi redirecting blaster fire back at their attacker.

 

Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!

 

starwars.com uses the terms "Sith Lightning" and "Dark Side Lightning" in reference to Palpatine's attack on Windu as well as Palpatine's listed weapon.

 

Starwars.com also calls it Sith and dark side lightning, in all cases in the "movie" section.

 

And such terms are never used in the movies. In fact nothing at all is said about lightning in the movies! I've also heard people use the term "evil lightning." But we don't make the same kinds of sayings for Grip. We don't call it "Sith Grip" or "Dark Side Grip" or "Evil Choke." Or Push, we don't call it different things based on who uses it. I don't think this really makes a difference unless Lucas somewhere says that Lightning is a Dark Side only power. I just wonder why he had Yoda throwing lightning! Nobody seems to be able to answer this, they can only continually deny that he does it.

 

Perhaps grimacing in effort?

 

Perhaps. And perhaps Dooku was not really "enraged" either, but was just straining to overcome these Jedi attacking him.

 

Now when Palpy is pummelling Luke with lightning in ROTJ he looks like he's really mad, but in all the other cases you could equally argue that the user of the Force is simply "concentrating" or whatever (like a Tennis player grunting with exertion on a hard shot). But I think many people would give the Jedi the benefit of the doubt, and assuming the same is a sign of dark side malice with a sith character.

 

Then are you happy with the term "repulsed"? In any event, pretected himself from the lightning. Again my point is, he did not generate the lightning, and so not corrupting the Force.

 

I think the scene shows Yoda absorbing, redirecting, and then using lightning of his own. Saying he "blocked it all" Or "absorbed it all" or "repulsed it all" implies that it was all the same. It's clearly not, by what we're shown.

 

Again, I think that it is clear that Yoda was not generating the Sith Lightning and was in fact deflecting it back at his attacker.

 

I think it's not at all clear. I think people are forcing an interpretation on the onscreen evidence based on a priori assumption that Lightning is a darkside power and Yoda would never use a darkside power, so he could never have down what we see him doing! If you want to call it "Sith Lightning" (rather than just saying it's something neutral like all the other powers that Jedi and Sith share) then it may be distasteful for you to accept that Yoda generates "Sith" Lightning but there you go. Why couldn't Yoda have done this? Is he unable to make mistakes? We have a person saying he studied the Dark Side for years in order to counter it. Would he not then KNOW how to use it, perhaps?

 

Actually, it is indicated in several sources that he is in fact the greatest fighter of all the Jedi.

 

I'd be curious also which one says he's the greatest fighter of all time (saberist?). Then again I don't put much stock in such things, since it rarely plays out the way its supposed to onscreen. I mean if Anakin is so great, why does Luke beat him? If Obi-Wan is so awesome, why does he continually get beaten? Obviously mastery of saber fighting is not the only factor in combat. I keep hearing that Yoda is not the best saberist, but he's the most powerful force using Jedi. Considering we only see him ever fight one Jedi (whom he was unable to beat), I guess we'll just never know for sure (in G-level canon anyway!).

[Prime]

According to the ROTS novelisation they were completely unprepared for the Sith's latest plans. Why would they be training for 1,000 years to be ready to counter Sith lightning in case their extinct enemies rose from the dead, but be completely unprepared for a force user hiding in their upper government for the last decade?

Because the Jedi presumably had prepared for the Sith as they new them from a thousand years previously. Before the Battle of Ruusan the Sith were to a large extent a military force, and then went to the Rule of Two. The Sith essentially transformed into a new entity (using sabatage and other non-confrontational methods), against which the Jedi were not prepared. Although presumably they should have been more prepared having know of the Rule of Two.

 

Another excellent point. How do they know how to "duel"? They must duel with each other to practice. But at least there you have them training. Do you also have them training with lightning against each other behind the scenes though?

There are lots of references outside the films that talk about the Jedi dueling each other. As for Lightning, if the Sith had used it on the battlefield in the previous millenia I don't think it is unfeasible that the Jedi would know how to defend themselves against it. But that being said, the only Jedi we see defending themselves with success are Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda. These were all master and council level Jedi, so whether the knowledge was know to the rank and file is not clear.

 

Excellent, then we're not that far off, you and I. I'm mainly arguing with those who insist that Yoda couldn't have used the force offensively, much less used lightning, ever.

I think lightning is out of the question, but certainly there is some use of the force in combat situations.

 

Fair enough. In all sorts of movies, we "let the heroes off the hook" for any violence they commit, excessive or not. But I'm just saying in this case, if we were somehow in the Star Wars universe, and it was all real, how would we judge it? Would we just say killing and aggressive use of the Force is only wrong when done by Sith or turncoat Jedi?

I think how the force is used plays a large part.

 

That's pretty iffy. That would mean interfering with one's political goals gives one carte blanche in the use of force (here I mean physical force, so no pun intended!). This I think is sort of how the Jedi view themselves. They are a police force, and thus have been given vast police powers and oversight. While they are sworn to protect and serve, they can do things the ordinary citizen wouldn't be allowed to do.

Since they are under the judicial department of the Republic government, no doubt they could.

 

How do we know that? Most guards in movies are stupid.

I know you don't like starwars.com, but in the movie section it claims "Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty." So considering the Emperor likely did the selecting and knew that at some point he would need to protect himself against the Jedi it is reasonable to assume that they were at least in part trained to resist the mind trick.

 

Right, exactly! I just think much of the "Jedi would never do that" rhetoric comes from an interpretation of Yoda's lines in ESB. He says "wars not make one great" (implying war is wrong, so a Jedi would not participate in war). And he says "the Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" (implying a Jedi would never attack someone, using the Force). Both appear to be utter nonesense when we see the prequels. Some call this a blatant contradiction and that Lucas has betrayed the logic of his own story. Others see this simply as Yoda's changing philosophy over time (I think that's perfectly reasonable)

I just think the ESB quote is over applied.

 

So you're basing this entire argument on what Starwars.com says, that Lightning can only be used by tapping into the Dark Side? (and it being assumed that Yoda could never do this, despite what we see onscreen!)

I'm basing it on official sources, as well as what Lucas states (see below).

 

StarWars.com is not canon (not that I've ever heard anyway! unless they're quoting Lucas himself).

I thought I remembered one of those Jedi Council things saying that it was, but alas those are no longer around. But certainly they are not posting false information, especially when it comes to sections related to the films. If you choose to disregard what is stated on starwars.com, that is your perogative.

 

Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe he is generating the lightning. And watching it again now does not change that view.

 

And such terms are never used in the movies. In fact nothing at all is said about lightning in the movies! I've also heard people use the term "evil lightning." But we don't make the same kinds of sayings for Grip. We don't call it "Sith Grip" or "Dark Side Grip" or "Evil Choke." Or Push, we don't call it different things based on who uses it. I don't think this really makes a difference unless Lucas somewhere says that Lightning is a Dark Side only power. I just wonder why he had Yoda throwing lightning! Nobody seems to be able to answer this, they can only continually deny that he does it.

Again, I don't think he does have Yoda using Force Lightning, and I think this is supported my Lucas' comments. On the AOTC commentary he does state the following when talking about the Skywalker/Kenobi/Dooku fight:

 

"...I had to begin to show that Dooku had these powers similar to what the Emperor had. Sith powers. Dark Side powers...so we do a little bit of the Sith thing in the beginning to get rid of Anakin and let Obi-Wan have his fight."

 

Obviously he is refering to lightning since that is specifically what takes Anakin out of the fight, and pre-ROTS it is the only power we see the Emperor use. Do you not agree that Lucas is straight up calling Force Lightning and Sith and Dark Side power?

 

I'd be curious also which one says he's the greatest fighter of all time (saberist?). Then again I don't put much stock in such things, since it rarely plays out the way its supposed to onscreen.

So no point mentioning it.

 

I mean if Anakin is so great, why does Luke beat him?

Because Anakin was damaged goods, which is why the Emperor saught to replace him with Luke in the first place. Lucas has stated that Vader ended up being 80% the power of the Emperor, whereas he was originally destined to be twice as powerful.

[Blaze629]

Ah but you're still ignoring the case of Yoda throwing lightning of his own. I wish I could grab a movie of it. Watch carefully.. lightning comes from the hands of both characters!

 

I have watched it carefully MANY times. If we're all so wrong then how come Yoda does not initiate an attack of his own with lightning? We see Dooku initiate an attack with lightning but NOT Yoda. Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T.

[Kurgan]

I have watched it carefully MANY times. If we're all so wrong then how come Yoda does not initiate an attack of his own with lightning? We see Dooku initiate an attack with lightning but NOT Yoda. Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T.

 

What has that got to do with anything? The assertion was made that Yoda cannot or will not use Force Lightning.

 

We have clear visual evidence that he DOES use Force Lighthing (I suspect people forget that last part of the scene, and are thinking only of the first exchange).

 

You're asking a seperate question... that is, whether Yoda is allowed to just throw lightning at Dooku, or if he chooses to let him "throw the first punch."

 

Is that part of the rhetoric that Jedi "never attack" and "only defend"?

 

There's a difference between straight up defense (like blocking, or dodging, simply to preserve self) and COUNTER ATTACK (seeking to eliminate the threat either to yourself or others), wouldn't you agree?

 

Though I'm sure in military terms, counter attack is probably lumped in with the concept of "defense" (of course military makes things more complicated and bogs things down in jargon... witness the whole "pre-emptive war" against Iraq by the US).

 

If Yoda considers counter attacks to be part of defense, and not the same as plain "attacks" then I guess I can see the logic of the argument, and it shows that his philosophy has not changed... from a certain point of view.

 

 

Where I've been calling people "wrong" is in the assertion that Yoda never used Force Lightning. Clearly he does. What I want to see proven is the assertion that Jedi never use the Force to attack anyone. I see that being invalidated from examples from the movies as well, unless you create a new definition of "defense" that includes counter attack to percieved threat.

 

So a Jedi could attack somebody with the Force if he was attacked first... right?

[Kurgan]

Because the Jedi presumably had prepared for the Sith as they new them from a thousand years previously. Before the Battle of Ruusan the Sith were to a large extent a military force, and then went to the Rule of Two. The Sith essentially transformed into a new entity (using sabatage and other non-confrontational methods), against which the Jedi were not prepared. Although presumably they should have been more prepared having know of the Rule of Two.

 

The trouble is the ROTS novelisation concludes that the Jedi were unprepared to fight the Sith. This newer source, much closer to the movie (despite the extra non-filmic elements still being lesser canon) clarifies some of these issues. The old backstory of the Sith has had to be retconned a few times, thanks to the prequels.

 

There are lots of references outside the films that talk about the Jedi dueling each other.

 

Fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that the Sith were the only beings in the galaxy to ever use Lightning, and that for a thousand years, the Jedi all trained to resist lightning (how? if you have nobody to train with that uses it?) all that time. I was forced to assume that Yoda was just a quick study.

 

Obi-Wan improvises with his saber after seeing what happened to Anakin. Yoda could have surmised a solution having seen the previous battle through the force perhaps, or else he's just a quick study, as before.

 

OR, perhaps Yoda KNOWS HOW TO USE LIGHTNING in addition to knowing how to counter it, so he was ready! The EU makes mention of "Sith Holocrons" in the Jedi temple that apparently all high level Jedi have access too (Dooku's access was finally revoked after he left the order).

 

 

As for Lightning, if the Sith had used it on the battlefield in the previous millenia I don't think it is unfeasible that the Jedi would know how to defend themselves against it.

 

If they thought the Sith extinct, then what would be the point in training for all that time to defeat such a tactic? Unless of course the knowledge of Force Lightning still existed, and thus it was a constant threat, regardless of the Sith. Just like lightsabers. If the Jedi are the only ones in the galaxy who use lightsabers (something the prequels seem to indicate, though the ANH novel says they were in widespread use in the galaxy at one time and still are in some places), then logically only renegade Jedi would be a threat from this tactic. On the other hand, they may have trained with their lightsabers for sport, in the long years of peace as just something to do, like monks learning martial arts even though they never plan to use the on anybody.

 

A sport for exercise suddenly gets turned to serious use as it once was in the bygone days when the Jedi fought the Sith, with their return... or something like that.

 

But this idea that they are constantly training to fight the Sith makes it seem like the Jedi KNOW the Sith are still alive and out there, just waiting to unleash their lightning attacks on everyone. That doesn't jibe with what's said about the Sith in the prequels themselves and the backstory from the prequel novelisations (I mean of the actual films, not some in-between EU book).

 

But that being said, the only Jedi we see defending themselves with success are Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda. These were all master and council level Jedi, so whether the knowledge was know to the rank and file is not clear.

 

And the only Jedi we've seen not defend themselves against it are Luke and Anakin. Yet I would think Anakin could have stopped it, he just rushed in unprepared. After all, if Lightning was Anakin's aquille's heel, why didn't Dooku just use it on him in their personal duel? He'd have won instantly. Or why didn't he use it later on when he was fighting Anakin the second time in ROTS?

 

I think lightning is out of the question, but certainly there is some use of the force in combat situations.

 

Why, exactly? Later on you seem to be saying "because Lucas said it's for bad guys only." That's about the only logical answer I see forthcoming from you guys. But then the question remains, in-universe, why can't the Jedi use it? Lack of knowledge? Or some taboo?

 

I think how the force is used plays a large part.

 

Fair enough, but it's pretty vague, all things considered.

 

I know you don't like starwars.com, but in the movie section it claims "Only the most promising of the Imperial ranks were selected for Royal Guard duty, based on stringent requirements of size, strength, intelligence, and loyalty." So considering the Emperor likely did the selecting and knew that at some point he would need to protect himself against the Jedi it is reasonable to assume that they were at least in part trained to resist the mind trick.

 

It's not that I don't like it, it's that I don't recognize it as G-Level canon. At best it includes summaries of other sources, which may or may not be accurate. The site often lags behind what Lucas himself says in interviews or does in the movies. So that's why I don't consider it a hard and fast "rule" for deciding these things. Even the Letters to the Jedi Council, which very good for authoritative info, itself is subject to change in light of Lucas's policy of making it up as he goes along (which is not something I'm arguing he can't do or is a bad thing necessarily).

 

I just think the ESB quote is over applied.

 

Agreed.

 

I'm basing it on official sources, as well as what Lucas states (see below).

 

One can't get anymore official than the movies themselves, which is what I'm arguing based on, primarily. But see below...

 

I thought I remembered one of those Jedi Council things saying that it was, but alas those are no longer around.

 

If it was ever posted, it should be archived, see if you can find it.

 

But certainly they are not posting false information, especially when it comes to sections related to the films.

 

If you choose to disregard what is stated on starwars.com, that is your perogative.

 

Not false, just outdated, or open to interpretation, as the case may be.

 

I don't ignore it, I just compare it to the movies themselves and other info to see how accurate it is. If there's no evidence for it in the movie itself, it might as well just be an interpretation.

 

I'm not ignoring it. I don't believe he is generating the lightning. And watching it again now does not change that view.

 

The Lightning is coming out of his hands, and moving towards Dooku. He's wielding it like a weapon. This seems like high level nitpicking semantics to say that he's not "generating" it, so therefore Yoda and all Jedi do not "use Lightning."

 

Again, I don't think he does have Yoda using Force Lightning, and I think this is supported my Lucas' comments. On the AOTC commentary he does state the following when talking about the Skywalker/Kenobi/Dooku fight:

 

"...I had to begin to show that Dooku had these powers similar to what the Emperor had. Sith powers. Dark Side powers...so we do a little bit of the Sith thing in the beginning to get rid of Anakin and let Obi-Wan have his fight."

 

Obviously he is refering to lightning since that is specifically what takes Anakin out of the fight, and pre-ROTS it is the only power we see the Emperor use. Do you not agree that Lucas is straight up calling Force Lightning and Sith and Dark Side power?

 

So no point mentioning it.

 

First off I'll say, obviously the audio commentary is recorded at a certain place and time and not necessarily when the film is completely finished. For example in the commentary during the scene where Jango is killed, Yoda is shocked that the FX guys actually finished the shot of the extra sparks on the "malfunctioning jetpack." But then the "Yoda throws lightning" as far as I can remember was in the theatrical version as well. It could be that Lucas never intended for Yoda to use lightning, but there it is, plain as day.

 

So there's a disconnect between what he's saying and what he's showing. I don't know how to resolve this honestly, since Lucas's words are authoritative, but then so are the movies. I will point out though that he doesn't say anything about Yoda's force moves later on, does he? There's huge portions of the movies that he doesn't explain, or does so in a very vague way. This thus leaves a lot of things unanswered and open to interpretation. Maybe he'll say something more on the ROTS DVD, we can only hope...

 

But still, if the point was, as he stated, to show that Lightning is a Dark Side power, why does he show Yoda using it? He never answers that question, as if it never occured to him that people would ask!

 

Because Anakin was damaged goods, which is why the Emperor saught to replace him with Luke in the first place. Lucas has stated that Vader ended up being 80% the power of the Emperor, whereas he was originally destined to be twice as powerful.

 

I've heard that as well. I personally think the whole "cybernetics makes you weaker in the force" argument to be awfully stupid (and if it's body mass, why aren't the jedi all fat as sumo wrestlers? and why is little tiny Yoda super powerful?), but Lucas himself apparently believes it, so oh well. Fine, I won't push that particular point.

[El Sitherino]

I just watched AOTC.

 

Yoda is not using lightning, he's deflecting Dooku's. No lightning is coming out of him.

 

And it's not body mass = strength in force. It's that your body is a catalyst for the force. When you lose part of your being you lose that much connection to the force. Think of it like the brain, size doesn't matter, only capability.

[Char Ell]

IS - I don't think Kurgan will change his mind on the subject of Yoda using force lightning

 

I freely admit that I'm no expert with SW canon, not having read any SW novels or anything, although I have added "Labyrinth of Evil" to my reading list on Prime's recommendation. However I took the time to review the 13 seconds of footage that the lightning portion of the duel occurs in and I wish to offer up my observations and interpretation of the Yoda-Dooku duel in AotC.

 

Starting with the force lightning part of the duel:

Dooku's 1st force lightning attack

1) Dooku extends his hand, fingers towards Yoda, and fires a one-handed force lightning attack at Yoda.

2) Yoda extends his right hand, palm towards Dooku, and all of Dooku's lightning appears to draw in towards Yoda's hand.

3) Dooku stops his initial force lightning attack.

4) Yoda seems to draw in the remaining force energy into the palm of his right hand and a ball of bluish light has formed on Yoda's palm.

5) Yoda draws back his arm and then extends it again (in what I would characterize as a pushing motion) with palm facing towards Dooku and a lightning bolt comes out of the bluish ball of energy in Yoda's hand towards Dooku.

6) Dooku extends his right hand, palm facing Yoda.

7) The bolt of lightning coming from Yoda hits the palm of Dooku's extended hand then appears to deflect towards the ceiling where it terminates in an explosion of fire. I did not note any bluish ball of energy on Dooku's palm.

Dooku's 2nd force lightning attack

1) Dooku extends his right hand again, fingers extended and pointing towards Yoda, and fires a force lightning attack.

2) Yoda extends his right hand. A bluish ball of light appears again on his hand as Dooku's lightning hits.

3) Multiple bolts appear from Dooku's hand but all are drawn in towards Yoda's palm.

4) Bolts are observed coming from Yoda's hand but these bolts are firing wildly in various directions going away from Yoda but not towards Dooku.

5) Dooku ceases his force lightning attack

6) Yoda draws in his hand and the remaining lightning appears to draw in towards the bluish energy ball on his palm.

7) Yoda closes his palm into a fist and as he does so the bluish ball of energy disappears.

 

INTERPRETATIONS

Based on these observations I don't think Yoda used force lightning in the same manner as Dooku nor do I think Yoda generated a force lightning attack of himself. I believe Dooku used force lightning twice in the duel. The first time Yoda was attacked I think he used what I would characterize as an absorb-reflect ability. I think Yoda took the energy from Dooku's lightning and then sent it right back at Dooku. Dooku used a deflect ability to send the lightning bolt from Yoda towards the ceiling where it exploded in fire.

The second time Yoda was attacked he used what I would characterize as an absorb-deflect ability. Lightning coming from Dooku was deflected in many directions, none of which were directly towards Dooku.

I also think it important to note the orientation of the hand. Dooku always has his fingers extended when using force lightning. This is in line with how Sidious uses force lightning as well (in RotS and RotJ). Yoda however does not have his fingers extended when the lightning bolt comes from his hand. His palm is facing Dooku and there is a ball of light in Yoda's palm. No ball of light is ever observed around Dooku's hand or Sidious' hand for that matter when they use force lightning.

 

Obi-Wan improvises with his saber after seeing what happened to Anakin. Yoda could have surmised a solution having seen the previous battle through the force perhaps, or else he's just a quick study, as before.

Wasn't Yoda 800+ years old during the events of AotC? I'm sure he had plenty of time in his life to review Jedi and Sith history and was familiar with how the Sith used the force during combat. How Yoda would have been able to practice techniques to defend himself and/or counterattack is a question I think you already posed and to which I think there is no definitive answer...

[Prime]

Fair enough. I just find it hard to believe that the Sith were the only beings in the galaxy to ever use Lightning, and that for a thousand years, the Jedi all trained to resist lightning (how? if you have nobody to train with that uses it?) all that time. I was forced to assume that Yoda was just a quick study.

 

OR, perhaps Yoda KNOWS HOW TO USE LIGHTNING in addition to knowing how to counter it, so he was ready! The EU makes mention of "Sith Holocrons" in the Jedi temple that apparently all high level Jedi have access too (Dooku's access was finally revoked after he left the order).

Well, the Jedi at large do not know of it, as stated in the AOTC novelization:

 

"But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to the Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan."

 

But perhaps Yoda knew about it, through some unknown means. It would appear that he may have imparted some of this knowledge to Luke, since he know he would be battling the Sith. From the ROTJ novelization:

 

"But if it was force-generated, it could be Force repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they course over and into him ...

 

That first part is interesting, since it suggests that there is some common knowledge on how to defend against Force attacks. So it is possible that even though they did not have any or limited knowledge of force lightning, they had some expertise in defending themselves from it.

 

If they thought the Sith extinct, then what would be the point in training for all that time to defeat such a tactic? Unless of course the knowledge of Force Lightning still existed, and thus it was a constant threat, regardless of the Sith.

Perhaps they didn't train for that tactic in particular, but defense against force attacks in general.

 

Why, exactly? Later on you seem to be saying "because Lucas said it's for bad guys only." That's about the only logical answer I see forthcoming from you guys. But then the question remains, in-universe, why can't the Jedi use it? Lack of knowledge? Or some taboo?

Probably both. Since it requires the dark side to use, no doubt most jedi would have no knowledge of it, as Anakin did not in AOTC. The few who did knew that it was of the dark side, and so may prepare themselves to defend against it.

 

One can't get anymore official than the movies themselves, which is what I'm arguing based on, primarily. But see below...

Actually, the scripts, radiodramas, and movie novelizations are also considered G-canon by Lucasfilm. And of course what comes out of George's mouth.

 

If it was ever posted, it should be archived, see if you can find it.

They have been removed and will be returning shortly, according to the faq.

 

Not false, just outdated, or open to interpretation, as the case may be.

Well, the two entries I cited have been updated since ROTS, so they can't be that out of date.

 

The Lightning is coming out of his hands, and moving towards Dooku. He's wielding it like a weapon. This seems like high level nitpicking semantics to say that he's not "generating" it, so therefore Yoda and all Jedi do not "use Lightning."

It isn't nitpicking at all. If Yoda was actually generating it, that means he would be using anger, hate, and the dark side to do so. Since he is only defending himself and redirecting it, he requires no use of the dark side. Thus, whether he is generating it himself or not is entirely the question.

 

First off I'll say, obviously the audio commentary is recorded at a certain place and time and not necessarily when the film is completely finished. For example in the commentary during the scene where Jango is killed, Yoda is shocked that the FX guys actually finished the shot of the extra sparks on the "malfunctioning jetpack." But then the "Yoda throws lightning" as far as I can remember was in the theatrical version as well. It could be that Lucas never intended for Yoda to use lightning, but there it is, plain as day.

It obviously isn't plain as day, since we can both look at the same footage and see something completely different.

 

In any event what you state shows that Lucas' DVD commentary was recorded after the theatrical release of the film was completed (of course) since the FX for the malfunctioning jetpack were newly added for the DVD release of the film and were not in the theatrical version. So it is after the film was completed and released that Lucas clearly states that the Sith/Dark Siders are the only ones who use Force Lightning. He is giving the canonical interpretation of what is happening on screen (and is supported by the visuals, IMO). Even if that wasn't the case, there are potatoes in the asteroid field in ESB. Does that mean that in-universe the Falcon is really dodging giant potatoes?

 

So there's a disconnect between what he's saying and what he's showing.

I don't think so. Film aside, from what I see everything lines up between what lucas says, what the novels say, what the script says, and what starwars.com says. And three, if not all four, are G-canon.

 

But still, if the point was, as he stated, to show that Lightning is a Dark Side power, why does he show Yoda using it?

Because he doesn't.

 

I've heard that as well. I personally think the whole "cybernetics makes you weaker in the force" argument to be awfully stupid (and if it's body mass, why aren't the jedi all fat as sumo wrestlers? and why is little tiny Yoda super powerful?), but Lucas himself apparently believes it, so oh well. Fine, I won't push that particular point.

Because each being has a certain amount of midi-clorians in their body. This is unrelated to how big they are, since yoda has the second highest count. These are distributed throughout the body, but obviously don't increase with cell count as force-sensitives are usually detected as babies, and Anakin had a higher concentration than Yoda at age 10. So getting fat in no way increases your midi count and thus force potential. When Vader lost x% of his body, he lost y% of his midis and thus force potential. I think it makes perfect sense personally as the force is generated by living things, and not all living things have minds, thus it must be related to the body.

[Blaze629]

What has that got to do with anything? The assertion was made that Yoda cannot or will not use Force Lightning.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this whole debate. Yoda NEVER once took the offensive against Dooku or Sidious on his own with force lightning. Throwing the "first punch" is not the concern here. When Dooku attacked him, Hai-Wan has pointed out the obvious. The ball of energy STAYS in his palm and then is reversed back to the caster. When Dooku goes for his sabre, how come Yoda did not release lightning of his own at that time? Yoda uses lightning according to you so how come he doesn't use it there? There was plenty of time after he had absorbed the last attack. How come Yoda used a force to push to knock Sidious back instead of using force lightning? He had a PERFECT opportunity to do so and lightning would have been much more damaging, so why didn't he use it? Let me repeat: Can Yoda do it? There is no question in my mind that he CAN, but he WON'T. "Clear visual evidence" that he uses force lightning? No. "Clear visual evidence" that he reverses an attack from someone else? Yes. Believe whatever you want to believe Kurgan.

[Kurgan]

Okay, I'm going to make a concession here. I re-watched the scene AGAIN, this time in freeze frame, and then in regular motion, etc.

 

In the last sequence it does appear that Yoda is absorbing the bolts and simultaneously "deflecting" them. He has that little "energy orb" in his hand (often barely noticable, but you can make out the distinctive shape and glow from between his fingers). He does project the bolts towards Dooku, but none of them actually hit him, and despite what I thought earlier, no bolts are actually "hitting each other" in mid air. I guess looks can be decieving sometimes.

 

So, we only have one actual instance of Yoda generating a bolt of lightning, and that's in the first exchange. The one that Dooku "blocks" and sends into the wall producing fire.

 

The AOTC/ROTS Visual Dictionaries imply that the Jedi Archives contain "holocrons" and the Sith Holocron (mentioned in ROTS VD IIRC) contains knowledge of the Sith. Yoda studies this, and he is depicted as "probing the Dark Side" and other info in both the AOTC and ROTS supplementary materials. So I find it odd to think that he would never have come across anything about "Sith" Lightning, if indeed its a power they have used up in their thousand years (known to the Jedi) history.

 

That one could repel any Force attack in theory is a good argument, actually. The phrase "unknown to the Jedi" could mean that its not practiced by the Jedi, or simply not common knowledge. It need not mean that no Jedi has ever known how to do it. After all, somebody like Dooku knows how to do it (but we sort of assume that he learned from Palpatine, rather than he always knew, but was simply forbidden to use it by the Jedi Council's rules or something).

 

So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning, even if he doesn't use it FIRST (but only after Dooku initially attacks him). I consider it a counter attack, and proof that Yoda is not completely ignorant of the power. He's done something we haven't seen before or since, so I can see why it's confusing to a lot of us.

 

Anyway, to get back to another point, what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?

 

Does Force Choke require "hate, anger and the darkside" to be used? Does Force Push?

 

I think by making that assumption people are assuming the conclusion they want to arrive that. They assume Yoda would never use the Dark Side, and Lightning is the Darkside, so Yoda would never use it. So if we see him use Lightning, he must not have really been using Lightning. That doesn't necessarily follow. Lightning may not be the Dark Side. And Yoda may be capable of using the Dark Side, like any other Jedi.

 

Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!

 

If the knife he throws back hits his target, then we could probably say the victim was killed by a thrown knife. Rather than arguing "well it wasn't really a thrown knife, because he only redirected it." The outcome is the same. And if the outcome is supposedly what matters to the Jedi (not just the "intention") then its perfectly relevant.

 

Does Lightning have to be redirected from Lightning? Can a person "absorb" a Force Push and turn it into Lightning? Again I don't see the problem with Yoda using Force Lightning. Those who assume Yoda is a perfect Jedi, and Lightning is only used by evil characters are forced into this circular thinking....

 

Why didn't Yoda use lightning more often than he did? That's an open question. But the idea that Yoda can but he WON'T is offset by the fact that he DID use it. Maybe he felt bad after his "sin" of using this "sith power" once? Who knows. Why did Dooku continue to throw lightning when it was clear Yoda could just keep absorbing it? Why would Yoda throw lightning back if it was clear that Dooku could block it?

 

Again, who knows. But it doesn't change the fact that Yoda did use Lightning at least once. Perhaps he felt guilty about it later, but we're never shown that.

 

One theory could be though that tossing lightning is a very taxing ability. Perhaps after throwing the initial burst, hoping to pulverize Dooku, Yoda realized he had to save his strength for the rest of the fight coming up. Similar to his Force Push against Palpatine... these attacks could be seen as a means of "softening up" his opponent, or just trying to shake him psychologically to show him that Yoda means business (perhaps scare his opponent a bit to give Yoda the edge). Intimidation is an important part of combat, after all, and there's nothing in the Jedi code that I know of against such tactics. So why didn't Dooku use his free hand during a saber lock to zap Yoda in the face with lightning? After all, Yoda was otherwise occupied, could he raise his hands in time? And if he did stop and raise his hands, cut him with the saber! Lucas obviously made some artistic choices, but there you go. Why didn't Qui Gon and Obi-Wan just Force Push over those Droideka? Why didn't Vader force choke Obi-Wan during their duel? (after all, Dooku Force choked Obi-Wan during THEIR duel in ROTS!) Who knows! (obviously it was dramatic purposes, but I mean why "in-universe"?)

 

But the "they were saving their power for a later time" might be as good an explanation as any.

[El Sitherino]

Uh... Yoda never uses lightning. He redirects Dooku's attack back at him and he deflects it to the ceiling. And your semantics about "using = same as generating" is absurd, essentially what you're saying is a countering defense is the same as throwing a punch.

 

Why would Yoda throw lightning back if it was clear that Dooku could block it?

Why keep swinging your saber if your opponent can block it?

 

Again, who knows. But it doesn't change the fact that Yoda did use Lightning at least once. Perhaps he felt guilty about it later, but we're never shown that.

 

So why didn't Dooku use his free hand during a saber lock to zap Yoda in the face with lightning?

It's apparent you know nothing of swordfighting, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an absurd question.

 

Why didn't Vader force choke Obi-Wan during their duel?

Pride. He was taken down by Obi-Wan's blade, he had to seek revenge for the injustice brought against him.

 

(after all, Dooku Force choked Obi-Wan during THEIR duel in ROTS!)

Vader != Tyrannus.

[Char Ell]

Ahhh, Kurgan. You bring a smile to my face my man. I think you like to argue the point because... well... because you just like to argue and take the viewpoint opposite of that supported by the mainstream. And a very good job of it you do too.

 

So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning, even if he doesn't use it FIRST (but only after Dooku initially attacks him). I consider it a counter attack, and proof that Yoda is not completely ignorant of the power.

It really boils down to how you define the term "uses." I agree that Yoda counter-attacked Dooku with force lightning but unlike Dooku I don't think Yoda drew upon the force to generate the lightning. Yoda instead used the force to draw Dooku's lightning in and then redirect it back at Dooku. I think it key to note the differences in hand positions between Dooku and Yoda when force lightning is "used" to understand there is a distinct difference in the way they "use" it.

what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?

to which question I would refer you to:

If Yoda was actually generating it, that means he would be using anger, hate, and the dark side to do so. Since he is only defending himself and redirecting it, he requires no use of the dark side. Thus, whether he is generating it himself or not is entirely the question.

Personally, I think Lucas has made it abundantly clear in statements he has made and in how force lightning is depicted in the movies that force lightning is generated by a force adept who draws upon the dark side of the force.

 

Does Yoda have the ability to draw upon the dark side of the force?

I say most definitely he does. Just like any force sensitive he can use either side of the force in combat. I think Obi-Wan tapped into the dark side after seeing Darth Maul gut his master and he was enveloped in grief, anger, and a burning desire to avenge his master.

Did Yoda draw upon the dark side when he used force lightning to attack Dooku?

I think the answer to this question a little hazy but I agree with Prime in that I don't think Yoda generated the force lightning attack using his own force power, but rather used the force to turn Dooku's attack back into Dooku's face. Well, it would have gone into Dooku's face if Dooku hadn't put his hand out... But perhaps Yoda had second thoughts about using the same technique when Dooku attacked the second time since Yoda didn't "throw" the lightning back towards Dooku but rather deflected the lightning in multiple directions but not directly back at Dooku.

Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!

 

If the knife he throws back hits his target, then we could probably say the victim was killed by a thrown knife. Rather than arguing "well it wasn't really a thrown knife, because he only redirected it." The outcome is the same. And if the outcome is supposedly what matters to the Jedi (not just the "intention") then its perfectly relevant.

I don't really understand what you're trying to do with this analogy. Who said that the outcome, not just the intention, is what matters to the Jedi? My personal belief is that Jedi strive to live according the the principles of the Jedi Code. I for one would not consider a Jedi to have forsaken the Jedi Code and used the dark side of the force if the Jedi caught a knife thrown at him and then threw the knife back at the attacker. A Jedi has a right to defend himself and I wouldn't classify such an action as "dark side" behavior.

[Kurgan]

Uh... Yoda never uses lightning. He redirects Dooku's attack back at him and he deflects it to the ceiling. And your semantics about "using = same as generating" is absurd, essentially what you're saying is a countering defense is the same as throwing a punch.

 

But Redirecting = using! If that one shot of him tossing the bolt at Dooku was deleted, I would have no choice but to agree with you. He would only absorb and "deflect" it throughout the fight. But since he tosses the bolt AT Dooku, then he uses lightning, end of story. Dark Side point for Yoda then I guess! (unless lightning is not dark only)

 

If you throw a punch at me, I block the punch and then swing my fist into you, am I punching, or just "redirecting" the blow? The ones nitpicking semantics are the ones who want to turn Yoda's use of lightning into Yoda's non-use of lightning. How much simpler can I put it?

 

And I don't see the problem with seeing Lightning as a "neutral" (ie: not Dark Side only) power, but still have it be "rare." Do we have to assume that the Jedi Knights know everything about the Force, and there is nothing left for them to learn?

 

Why keep swinging your saber if your opponent can block it?

 

Or why do anything, because a counter exists for it? Exactly. So the argument that Yoda should have used lightning constantly if he used it once doesn't really answer anything.

 

 

It's apparent you know nothing of swordfighting, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an absurd question.

 

Right, because we both know force powers have any affect on real-life sword fighting... [/sarcasm]

 

I'm not a fencing master, but I do know that it's not impossible to fight one handed. In fact, Dooku does use his free hand to use the force later to rip the giant pillar out of the wall. So I guess I redirected that lightning bolt you just threw, metaphorically speaking!

 

Pride. He was taken down by Obi-Wan's blade, he had to seek revenge for the injustice brought against him.

 

Nonsense. He chokes Obi-Wan with his robot hand during their ROTS Fight and tries to Force Push him. They jump around like circus acrobats. None of that happens in the ANH duel. Lucas's explanation? They're old men now, so it was a "hard fight." If you buy that explanation.

 

But if we look at the prequels, we can see that old men like Yoda and Dooku are fully capable of being "acrobatic" mid-sword fight, thanks to the Force. Even Palpatine is capable of mid-air flips. So go figure...

 

Vader != Tyrannus.

 

But wait, I thought Vader was "way below his potential" because his body has been diminished by his injuries? So perhaps Dooku could have taken out Vader, if they had somehow met through time travel. Some have speculated that Vader's suit has a weakness against Force Lightning (a power we never see Anakin/Vader use), so perhaps Dooku could take him out rather easily.

 

Unless you meant pre-suit Anakin, in which case, well, he won (fair and square), even with a robotic arm, so I agree with you!

 

PS: Sithy, I will warn you that I have a lot of work catch up on this weekend, so if you feel like winning this one through sheer stamina, stick around. I probably won't have many more replies after tonight, unless I start slackin'.