Yoda's ability to handle force lightning attacks

[Prime]

The phrase "unknown to the Jedi" could mean that its not practiced by the Jedi, or simply not common knowledge.

Likely the latter. Perhaps high level Jedi knew, and perhaps only Yoda.

 

So anyway, I still say it's plain that Yoda uses Force Lightning

I disagree.

 

Anyway, to get back to another point, what proof do we have that in order to use Force Lightning one has to utilize "hate, anger, and the dark side"?

Because Lucas said so (the dark side anyway). We also know that hate, anger, fear lead to the dark side. If you want to include the EU, it is explicitly stated in several locations. If not, we still know for a fact that lightning is a dark side power. But we have been over this already.

 

Does Force Choke require "hate, anger and the darkside" to be used? Does Force Push?

Who knows? I'd say it is possible that choke does, but not push. But it doesn't matter, since we are talking about what Yoda did with lightning against Dooku. In that case, we are lucky to have Lucas' comments.

 

I think by making that assumption people are assuming the conclusion they want to arrive that.

You are ignoring what Lucas and other G-canon sources say on the topic to arrive at the conclusion you want to arrive at.

 

They assume Yoda would never use the Dark Side, and Lightning is the Darkside, so Yoda would never use it. So if we see him use Lightning, he must not have really been using Lightning. That doesn't necessarily follow. Lightning may not be the Dark Side. And Yoda may be capable of using the Dark Side, like any other Jedi.

Lightning is of the dark side and the Sith, as we know. And we know that having Dooku use lightning was added to specifically show that he was a Sith like the Emperor in ROTJ. If Lucas was showing Yoda using lightning, then that indicates that he is also like the Emperor, and presumably Sith. It doesn't make much sense to have Lucas say lightning is used to show he is a Sith and then have good guy Yoda do exactly the same thing. That would completely undermine the whole point of having Dooku use lightning in the first place. If everyone uses it, what is the difference between the Jedi and the Sith?

 

Using my knife analogy, it makes little difference if he "redirects it" vs. "creates it himself and uses it." He's still USING it, which means that if using it is the dark side, then he's using the dark side!

We have different definitions of "use" in this case. The analogy don't really hold since the creation of the knife is not related to when it is used.

 

A more accurate contrived example is if lightning was like a stream of water coming out of a hose. If turning on the tap that the hose is connected to is considered an act of evil and of the dark side, Dooku is turning on the tap (and so "creating" the water stream and using the dark side) and spraying water at Yoda. Yoda is simply using a bucket to catch the water and then flining the water back at Dooku. What Yoda has done does not require the dark side because water is already in existence and does not require yoda to turn on the dark side tap.

 

But the idea that Yoda can but he WON'T is offset by the fact that he DID use it.

It is not a fact.

 

Does Lightning have to be redirected from Lightning? Can a person "absorb" a Force Push and turn it into Lightning? Again I don't see the problem with Yoda using Force Lightning. Those who assume Yoda is a perfect Jedi, and Lightning is only used by evil characters are forced into this circular thinking....

In order to make your view of what Yoda is doing fit, you need to have him act out of character as he is portrayed in the rest of the films. You need him to have issues with Anakin fearing for his loved ones and yet have no problem using dark side Sith powers without hesitation. Why would he be so concerned with Anakin and others avoiding emotions and feelings that lead to the dark side if there was no issue with using the dark side in the first place? And if Yoda has no problem using the dark side, why doesn't it forever dominate his destiny?

 

But Redirecting = using!

And that is where we disagree. Redirecting it does not require the power of the dark side, which is what creating force lightning requires as stated by Lucas. That's like saying the Jedi is firing a blaster every time they deflect a blaster bolt with their lightsabers.

 

If you throw a punch at me, I block the punch and then swing my fist into you, am I punching, or just "redirecting" the blow?

Since you generated your own punch regardless of what your opponant did, that is not redirecting your opponants punch back at him, but creating a punch of your own. To use the punch analogy, to "redirect" you would be grabbing his arm when he punched and hitting him with his won fist.

 

And I don't see the problem with seeing Lightning as a "neutral" (ie: not Dark Side only) power,

Which goes against G-canon, since it is a dark side/Sith power.

[Blaze629]

"This bickering is pointless." Grand Moff Tarkin (Episode IV)

 

Like I said Kurgan: Believe whatever you want to believe.

[El Sitherino]

I'm not a fencing master, but I do know that it's not impossible to fight one handed.

Not my point.

 

In fact, Dooku does use his free hand to use the force later to rip the giant pillar out of the wall.

Except he's no longer sword fighting at this point, they're both idling.

 

 

Nonsense. He chokes Obi-Wan with his robot hand during their ROTS Fight and tries to Force Push him. They jump around like circus acrobats.

And none of that argues against my point. RoTS != ANH. My point is that Vader wants a real saber battle with Obi-Wan, he wants to show that he is indeed the master and such cheap tricks are no longer necessary.

 

But wait, I thought Vader was "way below his potential" because his body has been diminished by his injuries? So perhaps Dooku could have taken out Vader, if they had somehow met through time travel. Some have speculated that Vader's suit has a weakness against Force Lightning (a power we never see Anakin/Vader use), so perhaps Dooku could take him out rather easily.

Uh... what? All I was saying is Vader is not Dooku, they're different people.

 

To use the punch analogy, to "redirect" you would be grabbing his arm when he punched and hitting him with his own fist

^ Exactly what I meant.

[Kurgan]

Except he's no longer sword fighting at this point, they're both idling.

 

Idling?

 

What constitutes "sword fighting" then? For another example, Vader is able to use the Force while fighting with Luke in ESB. In fact, such action does not necessarily even require hand gestures! But I thought Dooku's was a telling example of somebody in fact clearly using the Force during a duel without instantly being cut down.

 

And none of that argues against my point. RoTS != ANH. My point is that Vader wants a real saber battle with Obi-Wan, he wants to show that he is indeed the master and such cheap tricks are no longer necessary.

 

So you're thinking he's toying with Obi-Wan in that scene, not trying to kill him? Interesting speculation. The only thing is, if that's true, why is Obi-Wan humoring him and also refusing to use any of his canon abilities?

 

Uh... what? All I was saying is Vader is not Dooku, they're different people.

 

Oh ok. I thought you were saying that Vader was a better fighter.

 

^ Exactly what I meant.

 

What about in Judo, the concept of using an enemy's force against himself? Is that what you're getting at? All through this I've seen it as simply the assumption that there's no way Yoda, a 100% pure LightSide Jedi, would (even if he could) use Lightning, because Lightning is assumed to be only usable via the Dark Side. If you take that assumption to heart, then you have to come up with a rationalization for the scene, ie: that "redirection" exhonerates Yoda from his sin.

[El Sitherino]

In fact, such action does not necessarily even require hand gestures!

Except lightning does require hand gesutres, and doing something like that in a duel would be risky and very foolish. When you sword fight you can't just do **** all, you have to concentrate and focus on your opponent. Force throw and other powers along it's lines are powers of the mind, gestures aren't needed. Vader would be able to stay focused on his opponent (Luke), where as with lightning it takes a lot of focus to do so (as shown by no one being able to do anything while using it) and requires direction using the hand(s). Not to mention when Vader starts throwing things, they're not locking blades.

 

 

And I don't care about this "is lightning dark or neutral", what I'm saying is Yoda does not generate force lightning.

[Kurgan]

Except lightning does require hand gesutres,

 

Okay, you've got me there (despite what we heard in Braveheart)!

 

and doing something like that in a duel would be risky and very foolish.

 

Not if the lightning takes out your opponent! In that case it would be well worth it. We have multiple instances of people using "hand gesture" force powers in the middle of a saber fight (Anakin/Obi-Wan, Maul/Obi-Wan, Yoda/Dooku).

 

Force throw and other powers along it's lines are powers of the mind, gestures aren't needed.

 

Wait, and other force powers aren't? Despite that we only ever see lightning coming out of somebody's fingers, why would any power require hand gestures? That's something we've never really known. Likewise, Vader can use hand gestures for his powers even when he doesn't have hands (they're robotic, according to ROTS). Which powers are "powers of the mind", exactly?

 

The video games are no help, because in them ALL powers use gestures (except maybe "saber blocking"), IIRC.

 

Vader would be able to stay focused on his opponent (Luke), where as with lightning it takes a lot of focus to do so (as shown by no one being able to do anything while using it) and requires direction using the hand(s). Not to mention when Vader starts throwing things, they're not locking blades.

 

I'll watch both scenes again when I have a chance, but IIRC in Vader's case you could argue he's got his blade up but they're not clashing during it (though I could be wrong), though with Dooku I think it's fair to say they were fighting at the time. Maul has a split second opening and he uses the power. In the case of Anakin/Obi-Wan it's most obvious.

 

And I don't care about this "is lightning dark or neutral", what I'm saying is Yoda does not generate force lightning.

 

But you will admit he "absorbs and redirects" a burst directly at Dooku during the fight. You just refuse to call that "usage" (because you demand that usage = generation from scratch). Did I understand your position correctly?