Possible expansions or sequals?

[Sithmaster_821]

I second Luke. There isnt a person in the world who isnt more stubbornly sure of their ideas than Windu, and, on one level, I have to admire that.

 

Although, from personal experience, it does get annoying.

[anton_138]

well, to butt into where i wasn't invited, i will just say that anyone who has read the original Star Wars book (which, for those who did not know, was actually ghost-written by Dean Foster, who has written the books for many movies and wrote "SW:Splinter of the Mind's Eye" sometime between ANH and ESB) knows the way the SW universe turned out is NOT the way it was originally described. the intro stated that the emperors (plural) were mere figure heads controlled by the moffs, whereas it ended up with there being only one emperor who happened to be a Sith Lord... certainly no puppet for the politicians. and since the original title was Star Wars: from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, or something along those lines, i'd say it was originally about Luke and not Anakin.

 

now, as for the topic of expansions, i've been waiting patiently for a NJO/Vong game, and i think EaW would work excellently for that. imagine taking Kyp's Dozen and the Errant Venture and kicking some serious Vong butt, as long as you can get your shadow bombs past their dovin basals. New Republic troops with the Solo kids fighting Vong soldiers with amphistaffs and thud-bugs. and being able to play as the Vong would be something else. they were SO different from the known SW universe that a NJO/Vong game might appeal to more non-SW gamers. the only other SW game/format i'd like to see use the Vong would be KotOR, which would then be KotNR i suppose, but this thread's about EaW... and of course the issue of whom SW is all about. basically i think everyone's a little bit right, in the sense that it was simply about the rise and fall of Palpatine and the involvement of the Skywalker bloodline throughout.

[Darth Windu]

anton - you're right, Star Wars has changed a great deal. After all, the main character was going to be something like 'Luke Starkiller' and the final battle in ANH was going to be on Yavin IV between the Empire and a Rebel/Wookiee alliance.

 

starmark - yes, there was going to be episodes 7-9, but Lucas has repeatedly said that they are moot, because he only ended up needing the six films to tell the story that he wanted.

 

On the topic of Sci-Fi or Fantasy, the big difference here is details. For example, in Star Trek we are always given specifics, how fast 'warp' is, how many torpedoes are carried by each sort of ship, people have to reload their guns to continue firing. In Star Wars though, it isnt like that (the books are, but not the films). In the SW films, it doesnt matter how soemthing works, only that it does. For example, how many times have you seen a soldier or character in a SW film reload?

[anton_138]

another good SW era for an expansion pack would be the time of Exar Kun, the Sith Wars, and the Mandalorian Wars (before the Sith were limited to 2 members by Darth Bane) so both sides would have a nice selection of Jedi heroes. besides, maybe it will encourage more info about the early Sith to be released/created. it's funny, i never cared for history class in school, but after reading about 100 SW books the histories of SW characters and worlds kinda grew on me. :-p

[Naja]

This is slightly off topic, but a part of Star Wars history that hasn't been visted at any point - in the movies, video games, comic books, or novels - is the founding of the Republic.

[anton_138]

true, Naja, but for some reason i'd hate to think of game developers, instead of actual sci-fi/fantasy authors, writing the earliest of SW history. absolutely no offense meant to any game developers who may read this!

[Naja]

I wonder what happens after the Dark Nest, too. I mean, ****, you could go indefinately into the Star Wars future.

[anton_138]

yeah, Naja, after reading about 100 SW books you realize you've gone from being a fan to being a junkie, always waiting for your next fix. i never got a chance to read the comics/graphic novels (expensive, and hard to find in used book stores), though, or most of the newest Clone War books, so i know there are a lot of factions and major events i don't know about aside from references in the novels, but from what i do know there is a lot of untapped potential for EU games...

 

... and if you think about it, many of the successful SW pc games are more EU than movie based, like SotE, the JK series, X-Wing Alliance. the impact of the SW movies didn't wasn't from the movies alone, but the franchise that came with it, and ever since the SW RPG (old D&D style with paper and dice) and the early LEC games like Dark Forces came out gamers, in one form or another and of all ages, have tried to keep not just interest in the movies alive but the SW universe itself through the books, comics, games, etc...

 

so, i guess my point is i would like to see LEC do something with all the great things that came outside the movies, like an RPG of Han Solo's early years based on the 2 trilogies, or a Sith Wars era FPS/JK game, or an expansion pack or mod for EaW pitting the New Republic against the Yuzzhan Vong and possibly finding a way to utilize one of the 40+ (is there an official planet count yet?) planets as Zenoma Sekot.

 

but, of course, we don't yet really know how the gameplay will be and what sort of mod changes will be possible... although i'll be the first to admit i don't know anything at all about modding (aside from a little map work) but i've seen some mods that really surprised me, and if there's a worthy innovative mod to be made (like the MOW2 mod for JK) someone will figure out how to make it... and George bless them for it!

[Darth Windu]

anton - actually, the Exar Kun era or the founding of the Republic would be horrible choices for an x-pac. Not because they're uninteresting, but simply because they wouldn't fit into a game of Empire vs Rebels. The best x-pac would be Republic vs Confederacy, because it would then span all four films and give greater depth to the game, but otherwise a Yuuzhan Vung x-pac would be the next best option, and frankly, it isnt a good one.

[Naja]

Ehh, have an open mind. The Sith Empire v. the Republic could be very compelling, if done right in the EaW model. You'd simply have to give much more of an emphasis to Force-users, to get that sort of Old Republic mythos feeling going.

 

Besides, any half-wit could do a Clone Wars remake. It would be too predictable. Now, pre-Republic or post-New Republic...now that would be ballsy.

[popcorn2008]

I would rather have a clone wars expansion that a Vong expansion because for the most part I really hate the new jedi order series. I personally dont consider it true to Star Wars even though it may be licensed by Lucas. I still would also like a post Star Wars x-pack.

[anton_138]

*spoiler* - (NJO series spoiler in this message, for those who've not read it)

well, Popcorn, all i can say is Lucas may have created the SW universe and all, and as far as the movies he definitely contributes greatly, but as far as the books (remember, Lucas has never actually written a SW book, or any fiction book that i know of, only storyboards and screenplays for movies) and especially games he has very little input, so does that make it all un-true to SW? the original SW book isn't even true to the SW universe that George has produced over the decades. still, if LucasFilms considers the mojority of storylines and information from the books to be canon or historical then i can consider it to be true to SW.

 

*spoiler here* - in the NJO series, Lucas had very little involvement, but he was the one who decided Anakin Solo would be killed instead of Jacen or Jaina, as well as Chewie being killed instead of some of the other classic characters like Han...

*end spoiler*

 

so, i think the NJO series is as true to SW as any other non-movie book. it's just very different from the typical SW themes and concepts, but then again Grand Admiral Thrawn and Admiral Daala don't exactly fit the Imperial framework as is generally excepted in SW... i mean, would Palpatine REALLY have allowed an alien and/or a woman to become high-ranking Imperial officers, regardless of how well they were tucked away in the Outer Rim or the Maw?

 

but, then again, if you just didn't like the NJO stories, characters, and such then you are certainly entitled to your opinion and THAT is not an arguable point. so, which post-RotJ era/storyline would you like to see as an x-pack or mod?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Ehh, have an open mind. The Sith Empire v. the Republic could be very compelling, if done right in the EaW model. You'd simply have to give much more of an emphasis to Force-users, to get that sort of Old Republic mythos feeling going.

 

We don't want hero(or in this case, just regular unit) powers micromanaging to be the main focus. They rarely make good games like that, especially if you want it to be epic.

 

Besides, any half-wit could do a Clone Wars remake. It would be too predictable. Now, pre-Republic or post-New Republic...now that would be ballsy.

 

Lucasarts =/= balls

 

And I happen to agree with Windu. The world will now implode.

[lukeiamyourdad]

so, which post-RotJ era/storyline would you like to see as an x-pack or mod?

 

How about none?

 

People, in general, would much prefer a game about the Clone Wars then anything post-RoTJ.

[anton_138]

while the Jedi heroes in Rebellion certainly had an edge over standard troops, there wasn't a whole lot of management involved with them. other than the specific "Jedi Training" mission with Luke or Vader the benefit of the Jedi were their skills increased drastically more than other agents. however, i haven't seen (which doesn't mean it hasn't been said) anything from the dev's stating that character/hero abilities will improve with experience like they did in Rebellion.

 

it may very well be that trying to make a bunch of Jedi in EaW would be as bad, or worse, than trying it in Battlefront. i'm a major Jedi fan, but even i can admit not every SW game has to be about Jedi and the Force. i'd just like to see more EU sources being tapped instead of everything revolving around the movies. sooo...

 

Darth Windu... are there any non-movie eras, factions, storylines, etc that you think would make a good x-pack or mod, or do you agree with LIAYD?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Darth Windu... are there any non-movie eras, factions, storylines, etc that you think would make a good x-pack or mod, or do you agree with LIAYD?

 

Trust me, the only one who is more anti-EU then Windu would be Vostok. And that's saying a lot as Vostok is the God of Star Wars purism.

 

The only era I would even consider is the pre-prequel era, between the Sith and the Republic. Why? It was popularized by KotOR and looks and feels enough like the movies to be popular among casual Star Wars fan. Hardcore and EU fans might want something like the Yuuzhan Vong, but such an x-pac would hit a tiny niche market. It would simply not work.

[anton_138]

The only era I would even consider is the pre-prequel era, between the Sith and the Republic. Why? It was popularized by KotOR and looks and feels enough like the movies to be popular among casual Star Wars fan. Hardcore and EU fans might want something like the Yuuzhan Vong, but such an x-pac would hit a tiny niche market. It would simply not work.

 

i must be confused again... you think the Old Republic would be almost considerable, because it was popularized by KotOR, an EU based game, but you think any other EU based game would be inconsiderable because it wouldn't be popular with casual SW fans? it seems by that logic KotOR, SotE, X-Wing Aliance, and the entire JK series should've failed entirely, because they were all based around characters and events unfamiliar to casual or non-SW fans... or maybe i just don't get your meaning.

 

but, there could simply be a New Republic x-pack starting from the end of RotJ... the NR against the Imp Remnants would be familiar enough, right?

[FroZticles]

Kotor series was a mixture of the warped reality called EU and also had a feel of the movies. And Kotor is EU even with a hint of movie feel no matter which way you slice it.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Let us remember what every one of the games you've mentionned have given us:

 

Jedi Knight:

 

-You fight against the Empire and later the Imperial remnants. You face sith, dark jedi, reborns, killer androids.

 

SoTE:

 

-You fight gangsters and the Empire.

 

X-Wing Alliance and all the other flight sims:

 

-You face rebels, imperials and pirates.

 

KoTOR:

 

-You face the forces of the Sith. You're a Jedi fighting masked sith soldiers ressembling stormtroopers. Your allies are the Republic forces, who strangely look like rebel troopers from ANH.

You encounter Tusken Raiders, Hutts, Jawas, droids, wookiees, etc.

Your main enemy are the lightsaber wielding Sith warriors.

 

A potential NJO game:

 

-You face the Yuuzhan Vong, a bunch of overzealous bio-tech warriors, who are immune to the Force.

 

 

See the difference? Like Froz mentionned, although KotOR is indeed EU, it retains the Star Wars feel to it.

[Darth Windu]

Naja - it's not that I think an Old Republic vs Sith RTS would be a bad idea, just that it wouldn't be suitable for EaW. Afterall, you'd then be spanning thousands of years between the factions - I mean, really, would anyone want to play an RTS where the main civs are the Soviet Union, United States, Ancient Greece and Ancient Persia? I think not.

 

anton - I pretty much agree with LIAYD in that if they were going to produce a non-Clone Wars EU RTS, the Old Republic would probably be the best one. We're a bit familiar with it from KotOR and wouldn't suffer from the over-mining of the other EU timeframes. I should also point out that as a big KotOR fan, I would be really interested in playing some of the big battles while Reven is going on his/her journey.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I mean, really, would anyone want to play an RTS where the main civs are the Soviet Union, United States, Ancient Greece and Ancient Persia? I think not.

 

 

*cough*RoN*cough*

[Naja]

As for whether a Vong situation deviating too much from canon would jeoporadize any sequel game, I would disagree. Making a quality game is the ultimate priority. That being attained, hiding behind canon is the last thing you should lose sleep over.

 

I mean, Christ - there's nothing wrong at all with branching out of an original story that everyone knows. Deviation from the two trilogies does not inherently make a bad story or game. What is this (painfully subjective) "Star Wars feel" you so describe, anyway? Is it dependant on the enemies you face? Because that so far is the only distinction you have made.

 

Personally, I feel that something captures the Star Wars feel if it...takes place within the Star Wars universe?? Is a traditional good v. evil conflict? The Vong are merely a radical new enemy that doesn't conform to lightsabers, or force lightning, or Death Stars; it is still taking place within that world Lucas gave the spark to.

[Darth Windu]

luke - yes, but when you fight someone in RoN they are at the same level as you are. However, would you really be interested in using US M-1 MBT's to fight Greek Hoplites?

 

Naja - but the whole point about the YV is that they are radical. Let me show you a little list of sides in Star Wars

 

Rebellion - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Empire - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Confederacy - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Republic - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Old Sith - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Old Republic - uses blasters, starships etc - members are all within the Force

Yuuzhan Vang - uses lightsabre-resistant snakes, bioships that make black holes and are outside the Force

 

Notice any differences?

 

The problem with the YV is that they don't conform to the 'reality' of the Star Wars universe. Biotechnology is certainly well within these boundaries, but snakes and crabs that stop lightsabre's? I don't think so. I should also point out that even if their Coralskippers could generate black holes, they would be instantly destroyed by them. Finally, it has been pointed out many times in the films that EVERYTHING is a part of the Force, even rocks. To have an enemy that is outside it then is just stupid beyond belief.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I mean, Christ - there's nothing wrong at all with branching out of an original story that everyone knows. Deviation from the two trilogies does not inherently make a bad story or game.

 

There is nothing wrong with branching out. What someone has to be careful with is how they branch out.

 

As Windu pointed out, the Yuuzhan Vong are outside of the reality of Star Wars.

They are something far from what Lucas gave spark too.

 

The NJO is the most controversial part of EU. They tried to make the Yuuzhan Vong supplant the Empire, even the Sith, as the greatest enemy the Galaxy ever faced. I find that utterly ridiculous. This is my opinion about the NJO, so let's put that behind.

 

Back to the Star Wars feel. Star Wars was among the first sci-fi movies (that I know of) that involved humans fighting humans. Good men vs bad men. This contributes to the Star Wars feel.

There's also the big battles between gigantic starships with laser blasts everywhere (à la Endor).

Finally, it involves Jedi from the Light Side of the Force fighting Sith from the Dark Side.

This is only for me and what I could think up in a few minutes. I'm sure that if I spent more time thinking about it, I could find out more.

 

Making a quality game is the ultimate priority.

 

I don't know what 8x8 world you live in, but their top priority is to make a game that sells. Making a game involving the Yuuzhan Vong would not sell very well. Especially in the form of an RTS.

I've heard a lot from NJO fans and what they like about the serie are actually the characters, which I can't really disagree with them.

An RTS does not bring good characterization. The Yuuzhan Vong wouldn't get anything more then a short intro. People would come in, sit down and try to play as them, wondering what they have to do with Star Wars.

[anton_138]

well, i think this NJO debate is pretty one-sided, since it seems neither Windu nor LIAYD actually know the series. here's why i DON'T think NJO is too far outside of "normal" SW...

 

the Vong do have weapons/armor resistant to lightsabers, but that is nothing new... being KotOR fans you know about cortosis ore, which has been refered to several times throughout the SW novels. the means don't seem that vital, to me, as long as they are sticking to or elaborating on an existing concept... so, cortosis or coral, there's not a huge difference, is there? and as far as that goes, the effects of cortosis in KotOR is not true to the way it was described in the book. wasn't Luke's first encounter with cortosis with Mara Jade in the Thrawn Trilogy, when they were trying to sneak into an Imp stronghold? originally, cortosis actually shorted out/shut down lightsabers, not just acted as some kind of damage resistant shielding, so KotOR is far from what i'd call canon, but i don't expect games to be since there's often some sort of storyline control in SW games.

 

the issue of Vong vs SW technology is moot, because what IS sci-fi if not the introduction of technology which does not yet exist? that's what seperates sci-fi from simply fiction, right? and seeing as how the Vong tech is not from the SW galaxy, it makes since that it would be vitally different. if aliens actually landed on your front lawn, would you expect their tech to be just like ours, or would you expect them to have found different means to a similar end? again, the means are

different but the effect is the same. SW has hyperspace engines and hyperspace, the Vong manipulate gravity so they are basically "pulled" around instead of "pushed," but the effect is the same. gravity manipulation compensates for their self-imposed lack of technology, including their "shields" which are described as miniature artificial black-holes created by genetically engineered creatures... odd, yes, but a LOT of SW is odd like that, right?

 

and, to ruin it for anyone who has never read NJO, and those who appearantly never would, the Vong were NOT outside of the Force! that was the big mystery of the series! they were originally Force capable, until they got so out of control that they were eventually cut-off from the Force on a genetic level (you could say they were given midichlorian blockers, but who'd want to say that... damned midichlorians), the effect being not too different from an ysalamiri, which has been in SW as long as cortosis, Mara Jade, and TIE Defenders. not to mention a few JK games, right? in the end of NJO, all of this was explained, the mystery solved, the war over, and the Vong actually discovered they COULD reconnect with the Force (the true Palpatine-like Vong leader was even Force capable throughout the entire series, it just wasn't known), so the argument that all things must be in the Force was enforced completely in NJO.

 

the Vong were used to supplant the Imps in, in the since that the Empire was gone and someone had to be the bad-guys. also, the Vong gave a good opportunity to bring the Rebs and Imps back together, ending with not a New Republic but a Galactic Alliance, bringing the galaxy almost full-circle since Palpatine's orchestrated rise. so we see that politically the NJO series shares some mindset with traditional SW. saying they replaced the Sith... well, maybe in a sense, but from the original SW book, was there any mention or hint of the Sith? the Emperor in the book was not even a Sith, as he was described as a powerless figure-head for the Moffs. the thing with SW canon is Lucas can change anything at any time, like he did with the whole origin of Boba Fett. does this mean everyone should dump on the Bounty Hunter Wars or whatever books talk about Jaster Masteel (misspelled, i'm sure), the journeyman Protector who would become Boba Fett after being exiled from his homeworld, just because Lucas decided, after many years, to ignore that and make Fett a clone of the original Fett?

 

maybe some people object to NJO because they killed Chewie? well, that struck a nerve with me, but Lucas gave the personal thumbs-up on that one, and it's his world, right? at least Chewie went out the way a bad-@$$ Wookiee should, fighting to the very end against all odds, even if all he could do was yell and shake his fists at the moon crashing down on him. if you just don't like NJO for some reason, that's great, no problem, but don't act like nobody else likes it or would like it because it's "not Star Wars".

 

maybe NJO would make an awful x-pack/mod for EaW, maybe not, but i think Naja and LIAYD are both right in that: yes, a well-made game is the key to a successful game, despite the details; and yes, the main point of any company/product is to make money. in the SW franchise there have been several games which kept the SW details but lacked appeal to gamers, like Rebellion or FoCom, and were in the end

not very successful. and there have been games like KotOR which only follow SW in the sense that it has the same or similar factions, but most of the KotOR "canon" is based on the Sith Era graphic novels, since no real Sith novels have been written, right?

 

i personally think an NJO RTS game would bring in a bit of StarCraft diversity to the SW gaming franchise... besides, a sequal to EaW could even allow more than 2 factions, allowing not just the NewRep/GalAll and Vong, but also the Remnant Imps and the Human League.

 

expand your minds, people... don't just try convincing others to limit theirs. still, a good debate is still a good debate, and a good debate doesn't come from people agreeing too much, so no hard feelings on this end, and i'd never say your opinions are wrong (except jokingly), only some of your "fact-based" arguments.