Something that has been bothering me (end game spoilers inside)

[RedHawke]

EDIT: Carth's Dialoge About Saul Karath...

When I think of all the men who have betrayed us, the one that stands out above them all is the one I respected the most. Saul.

 

You don't? I thought everyone did. Admiral Saul Karath is the commander of the entire Sith fleet. He's half the reason Malak has done so well in the war.

 

Saul was my commanding officer back when the Mandalorian Wars first began. He taught me everything about being a soldier... and I looked up to him.

 

Saul approached me before he left. He talked to me about how the Republic was on the losing side... and about how I should start thinking of my survival. (Nothing about the Sith being revealed here)

 

I know now that he was trying to recruit me into the Sith, but I couldn't have conceived of it back then. I argued with him and he got angry and he left. I never saw him again. (This statement is hindsight)

 

Saul was my mentor... he led us to so many victories against the Mandalorians, even when things looked to be at their worst.

 

I just... I couldn't conceive of it. He... he couldn't be serious. I was wrong, of course... he not only left us for the Sith, he... he gave them the codes to bypass our scanners.

 

I remember waking up as the first of the Sith bombers snuck past our defenses and began destroying half of our docked ships. I knew right away what had happened.

 

I... could have stopped him. I could have stopped it all.

 

I blame Saul, not myself. I was... I was stupid and I ignored the danger. He nearly destroyed us all.

 

I don't know. Maybe. He might have killed me if I'd tried, or I might have killed him. I was stupid, however, and I let him go.

Nowhere in here does it indicate Saul told anyone he had joined the Sith. Only in hindsight did Carth know better. Meaning Saul was still an active Republic Admiral at the time he tried to recruit Carth, and no one had any reason to question him or his ship.

 

Also this tidbit confirms Telos was part of the Start of the Jedi Civil War, hence Saul's attempt to recruit Carth came before the Sith were known...

 

My home world was one of the first planets to fall to Malak's fleet. The Sith bombed it into submission, and there wasn't a damn thing our Republic forces could do to stop them!

 

I told you about my homeworld. Telos. Four years ago, Saul led the Sith fleet there and demanded its surrender. The planet refused and Saul proceeded to devastate its entire surface. Millions died.

This states that Telos was attacked at the Beginning of the Jedi Civil war so the Sith were not acting openly before then, so your argument is moot!

 

Phew, I didn't think this would become such an extended discussion

Me neither!

 

Though I'm Sorry YertyL, but you are still trying to win an argument you have already lost...

 

Point: Your refrence, which the whole discussion is based on, is flawed and incorrect, when this happens it becomes time to just recognise the flaw and move on, further argument trying to defend your position based on that flawed info is pointless...

 

Remember when outside information and the information in the game itself contradict, we must consider the games information as accurate and therefore Cannon... over outside information.

 

While I do applaud your noble attempt, I think we can move on now...

 

mtfbwya!

[TreeX]

Errm... *starts clapping in the middle*

[YertyL]

So the Republic was "on the losing side" in the war against whom? The mandalorians? I am pretty sure this war was already over...

Also, it says "one of the first planets" which is not exactly the first ... and such news spread quickly. After the first attack about everyone in the galaxy would have known about the Sith.

At least you seem to recognize Cart was a soldier at this time... and what about the "Carth did not assume Saul (arriving in a Sith ship)was a Sith" point? And the "Why didn't anybody wonder where Saul got his ship from and why he had disappeared for some months"? Do you think an admiral could do that and not one of his superriors would mention a word?

[BattleDog]

If Saul arrived in a non Republic ship then he would be questioned at length. Also the Republic would first react to a (potentially) hostile ship, before Saul opened comms.

 

As a further point, Navies work very hard to make sure that everybody, especially major bases and fleets, is up to speed on what kind of new toys are around. This makes freindly fire less likely. The only way that Saul could have explained his new Sith ship was as a Black Ops job, to my knowledge no one make "Black" Cap ships and anyway if that were the case Saul wouldn't just turn up and say "Hey look at the new top secret toy they gave me."

 

Naturally this all assumes Saul has two brain cells to rub together, I'd say he does.

[RedHawke]

Alright YertyL, we have some new blood in the conversation, cool! I'll address your questions first!

 

So the Republic was "on the losing side" in the war against whom? The mandalorians? I am pretty sure this war was already over...

The Mandalorian War was over and Saul was attempting to recruit Carth to his new cause, remember? Carth (Not yet knowing of the existance of the Sith) doesn't realise what Saul is talking about when he said "on the losing side" at that time... simple!

 

Why is this so hard to accept?

 

Also, it says "one of the first planets" which is not exactly the first ... and such news spread quickly. After the first attack about everyone in the galaxy would have known about the Sith.

Not true about news spreading quickly, ever heard of something called information blackouts and jamming? It could be weeks to even months before the events of Telos could be heard. The fact of any possible information getting out would have greatly depended on when the Sith "wanted" the information to get out.

 

Taris was more immediately known about because Darth Malak wanted it as such and the attack was more hurried because he was trying to eliminate Bastila.

 

Basically, Telos was one of the first planets to fall, meaning the time of Saul's attempt to recruit Carth was clearly after the Mandalorian War, and before the destruction of Telos and the start of the Jedi Civil war, so events could indeed unfold as I have said.

 

At least you seem to recognize Cart was a soldier at this time...

I never failed to recognise this. Carth is a legendary soldier and hero of the Republic.

 

and what about the "Carth did not assume Saul (arriving in a Sith ship)was a Sith" point?

The answer to your question is easy, the Jedi Civil war hadn't even started yet! How can there be an enemy if hostilities aren't declared yet?

 

See, no Sith at that time, no Sith anywhere as far as the Republic is concerned, so the ship cannot be recognised as an enemy vessel if it happened to visit Telos before the Sith went on the rampage, that's impossible for reasons I have already posted. I elaborate futher below to BattleDog.

 

And the "Why didn't anybody wonder where Saul got his ship from?"

Allready explained this, here is a copy...

 

No one would question a new class of ship, as long as it has the right ID Signal and recognition codes the ship is a freindly, if not then it is hostile. That's how a spacebourne navy, as large as one the Republic would have to field, would have to operate, every new ship that was launched would not be known by everyone, so new ships aren't questioned just marvelled at when they are finally seen by the masses.

See it's simple!

 

"and why he had disappeared for some months"? Do you think an admiral could do that and not one of his superriors would mention a word?

Easily, like it states in the game 1/3 of the Republic Fleet dissapears with Revan, Saul was part of that. Just because you go missing doesn't mean you are instantly a hostile. The galaxy is a big place and the information systems in it take time to catch up so information isn't as instant like you seem to think.

 

It would not be reasonable to assume information is shot out freely everywhere if something happens, especially military information like if say, 1/3 of your fleet disappears. That kind of information is kept at the highest levels and is even doubtful a non-core world like Telos would even have that information. (WWII Example the US Pacific Commanders were kept out of the loop before the Attack on Pearl Harbor)...

 

So Admiral Saul Karath would be just another arriving Admiral wanting to visit an 'old freind'. By the time the Telos Commanders reports were filed and subsequently read regarding the appearance of Admiral Karath, this fact brought to the attention of the Republic High-Command, and a proper response given to Telos Command to detain him for questioning, he would be long gone.

 

Does this sound illogical? Yes it does, but that is the nature of secrecy and politics. Star Wars is chock full of politics, so secrecy goes hand-in-hand.

 

@ Hello BattleDog welcome to the fray!

 

If Saul arrived in a non Republic ship then he would be questioned at length.

By whom? Remember he is an Admiral in the Republic Navy and a hero of the Mandalorian War, and whomever is in command of the base would not readily question much no matter what method of transportation he used, see below.

 

Also the Republic would first react to a (potentially) hostile ship, before Saul opened comms.

 

This makes freindly fire less likely.

Ever heard of IFF Signals? Recognition codes? As long as they match up you could be flying a Winnebago and no one would bat an eye. That is how a spacebourne navy would have to work. (We see this in action in EP VI, if it were like you are saying the stolen Imperial Shuttle would have been instantly recognised as stolen and vaporized before it could transmit it's codes)...

 

As a further point, Navies work very hard to make sure that everybody, especially major bases and fleets, is up to speed on what kind of new toys are around.

Not true, especially in Navies. Information doesn't flow as freely as you guys assume it would. Especially to non-core systems. It is highly unlikely that commanders in the mid-rim or outer rim areas would have any ultra-secret classified information. Admiral Karath would know this and easily be able to take advantage of it.

 

New classes of capital ships are secret projects, not many know of them except at the highest levels. (WWII Example of this is the Yamato, even the workers who constructed parts of her didn't know exactly what they were building)...

 

The only way that Saul could have explained his new Sith ship was as a Black Ops job, to my knowledge no one make "Black" Cap ships and anyway if that were the case Saul wouldn't just turn up and say "Hey look at the new top secret toy they gave me."

You are assuming everyone knew what type of ship it was... as it is known that the Sith hadn't revealed themselves at the point of Saul attempting to recruit Carth which is clearly before the attack on Telos, and the normal amounts of secrecy involved in new ship classes, this argument is moot.

 

Admiral Saul Karath could have shown up in any ship and it woudn't have caused any type of questioning. As a soldier in a military you have the right to question "morally objectionable" orders, but you do not have the right to question much else. Why an Admiral has a new ship would be on the 'you have no need to know' list. Though rumors and speculations on the new ship would run rampant, they would only still be rumors.

 

So Saul could show up in a Sith Leviathan, declare to the Telos Commander that the ship was a new Prototype and the base commander was on a 'need to know' basis referring to his mission... the Telos Commander would follow orders and no more questions would be asked. As long as all the codes and paperwork are in order, like it or not, understand it or not, that is the way things are done.

 

Whew! A long one!

 

EDIT: Boy have we strayed off the Ravager topic!

[YertyL]

OK, so here we are with a completely logical & plausible story...:

Immediately after MalachorV (before Revan has even discovered Korriban or the StarForge) the Republic Admiral Saul Karath decides that it is time to disappear for a while.

Before any fighting has occured, Saul Karath comes back in a new type of ship that is completely different from the otherwise standardized Republican ships. No one thinks of questioning him about the ship or his disappearance.

Saul reminds Carth that the Republic, although they are not fighting at the moment, is bound to be "on the losing side" and that he should join an unknown third party of which he himself of course is not a member.

Carth himself tragically cannot conclude anything from Saul's disappearance,new ship and change in mind and thus never suspects him of treachery. When Saul Karath starts bombarding his home world of Telos, the tragedy is complete. However, the Sith mysteriously manage to shut off any information about Telos (while the news of e.g. Taris immediately spread) and thus no one ever knows about a whole planet blowing up...

 

Anything to add here?

[BattleDog]

RedHawke, you prove my point with your Tyriddian example. If the Empire would just except any fighter with IFF codes then there would have been no need to steel the shuttle, they could have just used the Falcon. The very reason for stealing the shuttle was that it was the right CLASS of ship.

 

Again you seem to have this wierd idea about ship design. Real life example:

 

A a wing of fighterplanes that look like Mig31s, carry full warloads and painted in Chinesse camo colours fly over Japan. The Japanesse do not react because the fighter have a Japanesse flag on the side and the right IFF codes.

 

That was theoretical, here's an actual example from real life: British tanks were routinly blown up by the Americans in Iraq because the Americans failed to recognize the Challenger II, they attacked even though the tanks flew American flags and looked nothing like T-80 Russian tanks.

 

As far as blackout on Telos, well Carth and the Republic Fleet arrived hours after the planet was attacked, Carth's Wife died in his arms, surrounded by reckage.

 

As far as comunication in general, well the Outer Rim in KOTOR is the Inner Rim in the OT, because exploration has opened up much more of the galaxey. Further we can tell that there is near instant communication between one place and another. In K2 the Captain of the Harbringer reports to Cath, who is almost certainly in the Core, the Diciple does the same thing later.

 

Remember distance in Star Wars means much less than it does in the real world, the whole Galaxey to them is like the whole Planet to us.

 

Also, I'd like to know where you get the idea that new weapons are secret projects, where are you living, Communist Russia?

[90SK]

I don't know if it matters or not, but I thought I'd throw this in: you can see the wreckage of a "Leviathan class" ship floating among the debris at Malachor.

[Captain_H]

...Further we can tell that there is near instant communication between one place and another. In K2 the Captain of the Harbringer reports to Cath, who is almost certainly in the Core, the Diciple does the same thing later.

 

Remember distance in Star Wars means much less than it does in the real world, the whole Galaxey to them is like the whole Planet to us.

...

 

Ok for one, it can take a few hours to get from lets say from Tatooine to Alderon at "faster than light" speed. Communications is always slower than travel (unless you are in the Star Trek Universe, but since this is Star Wars related there is nothing else to say). You are assuming that Carth got the message from the captain in just a few minutes. In actuality it could of been at least an hour later, same goes for the Diciple. Even if communication could travel faster than light just as the ships, it would still take up to a hour to get from near the end of the galaxy to the center.

 

PS to RedHawke: Nicely done with your explainations, I agree with you entirely.

[DeSade]

 

 

Not true about news spreading quickly, ever heard of something called information blackouts and jamming? It could be weeks to even months before the events of Telos could be heard. The fact of any possible information getting out would have greatly depended on when the Sith "wanted" the information to get out.

 

About this, not to add or subtract from the argument just FYI

 

It clearly states in the Lootra/Aiidia quest that the sith let the in-system shuttles escape Telos so everyone would hear about the destruction. Telos=Pearl Harbour in my mind.

[RedHawke]

^^^^

Thank you Captain_H and DeSade... I see you understand the obvious.

 

@ DeSade it is Taris, that the shuttles were allowed to escape from. But yes I completely agree that, from what I gather from the games as well, Telos was a 'Pearl Harbor' style attack on the Republic.

 

OK, so here we are with a completely logical & plausible story...:

Immediately after MalachorV (before Revan has even discovered Korriban or the StarForge) the Republic Admiral Saul Karath decides that it is time to disappear for a while.

Incorrect, on several points. Revan learned of the existance of the Star Forge, the Republic Fleet under his command disappears, Revan and Malak are sighted in several places (Looking for the Star maps), the Star Forge is discovered, it builds things at a phenominal rate, and only a year after the end of the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil war begins with telos being "one of the first" victims.

 

Before any fighting has occured, Saul Karath comes back in a new type of ship that is completely different from the otherwise standardized Republican ships. No one thinks of questioning him about the ship or his disappearance.

I repeat...

 

Admiral Saul Karath could have shown up in any ship and it woudn't have caused any type of questioning. As a soldier in a military you have the right to question "morally objectionable" orders, but you do not have the right to question much else. Why an Admiral has a new ship would be on the 'you have no need to know' list. Though rumors and speculations on the new ship would run rampant, they would only still be rumors.

 

So Saul could show up in a Sith Leviathan, declare to the Telos Commander that the ship was a new Prototype and the base commander was on a 'need to know' basis referring to his mission... the Telos Commander would follow orders and no more questions would be asked. As long as all the codes and paperwork are in order, like it or not, understand it or not, that is the way things are done.

 

It would not be reasonable to assume information is shot out freely everywhere if something happens, especially military information like if say, 1/3 of your fleet disappears. That kind of information is kept at the highest levels and is even doubtful a non-core world like Telos would even have that information.

 

So Admiral Saul Karath would be just another arriving Admiral wanting to visit an 'old freind'. By the time the Telos Commanders reports were filed and subsequently read regarding the appearance of Admiral Karath, this fact brought to the attention of the Republic High-Command, and a proper response given to Telos Command to detain him for questioning, he would be long gone.

 

Saul reminds Carth that the Republic, although they are not fighting at the moment, is bound to be "on the losing side" and that he should join an unknown third party of which he himself of course is not a member.

He never mentions a third party, does he? No.

 

If you are recruiting for a conspiracy you never reveal everything to the recruit, you only reveal this information once the Recruit is beyond the 'point of no return'.

 

What you seem to think was said and happened at this Saul/Carth meeting is clouding your judgement.

 

Carth himself tragically cannot conclude anything from Saul's disappearance,new ship and change in mind and thus never suspects him of treachery.

Yup, that is what Carth laments about in KOTOR, and why he took Saul's betrayal so deeply, even beyond the tragic death of his wife.

 

When Saul Karath starts bombarding his home world of Telos, the tragedy is complete. However, the Sith mysteriously manage to shut off any information about Telos (while the news of e.g. Taris immediately spread) and thus no one ever knows about a whole planet blowing up...

My reply above was hypothetical. Being you never have seemed to hear of such things as jamming or information control.

 

The fact is the Republic fleet arrives a few hours later to witness the aftermath of Telos, it still would not be known by the surrounding systems for quite some time. The reasoning for this is simple, the Republic Military wouldn't want the information that renegade ex-republic forces were running around in new types of ships destroying worlds... you need to take into account politics what you deal with information of this nature.

 

There would be a serious amount of political "red tape" and subsequently a time delay to the public with this Telos Destruction information.

 

Anything to add here?

I have nothing further to say as I feel it cannot be said any clearer... But thanks for asking!

 

RedHawke, you prove my point with your Tyriddian example. If the Empire would just except any fighter with IFF codes then there would have been no need to steel the shuttle, they could have just used the Falcon. The very reason for stealing the shuttle was that it was the right CLASS of ship.

Actually it is the other way around. You see recognition codes are generated for each type or class of ship, so the Falcon wouldn't have matched the stolen codes of the Imperial Shuttle... If your recognition codes are for a Winnebago then you need to fly a Winnebago. So the stolen recognition codes in EP VI needed an Imperial Shuttle to be authentic, and this totally proves my point about codes and Spacebourne Naval Operations.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp that Saul Karath a Republic Admiral could fake the proper recognition codes? It isn't.

 

Another thing to remember is Admirals, who can change their ships quite frequently, would have a recognition code all their own, as their "flag" as it is named, can be transferred between ships.

 

It doesn't matter the craft, or insignia, as long as the driver/pilot has the proper coded responses that's all that matters. It doesn't mean they cannot be closely monitored, but as long as there is no hostile action they will be allowed to proceed unmolested.

 

This renders all your equipment examples moot!

 

Again you seem to have this wierd idea about ship design.

No I don't, I fully support myself in my post, it is mainly the misinformed younger people who do not recognise just what secrets are and how valuable they are in warfare and politics in general.

 

I'm sorry but your Freedom Of Information Act theory doesn't play in the face of the ways the different Branches of the Military actually conduct themselves, your secrets alone could mean the difference between defeat and victory.

 

As far as blackout on Telos, well Carth and the Republic Fleet arrived hours after the planet was attacked, Carth's Wife died in his arms, surrounded by reckage.

This is true but I was answering a hypothetical question with a like answer. But I do now see that it would never occur to you two that it is necissary to control the flow of information in a war.

 

The loss of a planet to a new enemy would not be let out as quickly as you might think, and though my previous statement was about the Sith controlling information, the same would apply to the Republic. Hence the loss of Telos would only be made public after it has gone through the proper channels.

 

As far as comunication in general, well the Outer Rim in KOTOR is the Inner Rim in the OT, because exploration has opened up much more of the galaxey. Further we can tell that there is near instant communication between one place and another. In K2 the Captain of the Harbringer reports to Cath, who is almost certainly in the Core, the Diciple does the same thing later.

So? You are again making an assumption that information flows freely in military ranks, and I'm sorry but it doesn't. That's a fact!

 

Also, I'd like to know where you get the idea that new weapons are secret projects, where are you living, Communist Russia?

*Cough* Manhatten Project *Cough* You know about that one right?

 

It doesn't matter if you accept this truth or not, like it or not, and regardless of the country of origin, this is the way Military forces and even governments work.

 

All countries have their secrets, secret projects, and new technologies. What you occasionally see as new technology and weaponry on the Discovery and Military Channel is nothing compared to what they are really working on.

 

I find your naievite on this whole subject quite entertaining and disturbing at the same time.

 

I might suggest a book titled "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, a very good read on the subject of warfare.

[SITHSLAYER133]

redhawk u hit the nail on the head by the way the sun tsu book is just stuff that is just comon sense anyways by the who or wat is your pic ?

 

heres a good example of forces not telling each other everything the anime series ghost in the shell is a great example of this the episode srry dont how 2 do spoilers

 

 

 

 

interceptors little machines in ghost in the shell given to detectives with out there knowloge

 

 

remeber metal gear solid the player never ever noes exactly wats going on theres always some uber plot and counter plot and some other crap plot to act like a red hearing

[DeSade]

^^^^

Thank you Captain_H and DeSade... I see you understand the obvious.

 

@ DeSade it is Taris, that the shuttles were allowed to escape from. But yes I completely agree that, from what I gather from the games as well, Telos was a 'Pearl Harbor' style attack on the Republic.

 

 

 

Another thing to remember is Admirals, who can change their ships quite frequently, would have a recognition code all their own, as their "flag" as it is named, can be transferred between ships.

 

Case in point, Any plane the President is on is Airforce One

[RedHawke]

I stand... er'... sit corrected.

 

I had the wrong game in mind I mistakenly thought it was from K1! Silly me!

 

This even backs up the delayed information on the destruction of Telos theory too! Nice find DeSade!

[YertyL]

Incorrect, on several points. Revan learned of the existance of the Star Forge, the Republic Fleet under his command disappears, Revan and Malak are sighted in several places (Looking for the Star maps), the Star Forge is discovered, it builds things at a phenominal rate, and only a year after the end of the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil war begins with telos being "one of the first" victims.

Hmm, so why is it incorrect if I say "Before Revan has discovered the Star Forge"? MalachorV was "Before Revan discovered the Star Forge" - you've said it yourself... And btw. what motivation would Saul have to follow Revan and Malak directly after MalachorV? I presume that as an important admiral he was not part of the third of the fleet under their direct command.

 

He never mentions a third party, does he? No.

Ah, yes, of course .... the Repulic is "on the losing side", but there is no enemy - he never mentions an enemy! Brilliant! The Republic can be "on the losing side" without the enemy even existing.

Ah no wait - there is an enemy, but Saul just doesn't mention it and Carth conveniently does not wonder what the heck Saul is talking about...

If I were Saul, the first thing I would do to hide my switching sides is revealing insider information (no Republic general could have thought or known the Republic was "on the losing side" IF the Sith had not revealed themselves yet). He seems to be almost as smart as Carth is...

 

Yup, that is what Carth laments about in KOTOR, and why he took Saul's betrayal so deeply, even beyond the tragic death of his wife.

Hmm, yeah, but what you conviniently ignore that someone's IQ should to be 50- not to conclude anything from:

-a long disappearance (along with 1/3 of the Republic fleet under the command of 2 jedi)

-a new type of ship

-"strange talk" and seemingly a change in mind; anti-Republican propaganda

 

My reply above was hypothetical. Being you never have seemed to hear of such things as jamming or information control.

I have to agree that this point is not necessarily needed to support your "Leviathan" theory, but you seemed to support it so I though I could include it into my summary of your version...

 

The fact is the Republic fleet arrives a few hours later to witness the aftermath of Telos, it still would not be known by the surrounding systems for quite some time. The reasoning for this is simple, the Republic Military wouldn't want the information that renegade ex-republic forces were running around in new types of ships destroying worlds... you need to take into account politics what you deal with information of this nature.

There would be a serious amount of political "red tape" and subsequently a time delay to the public with this Telos Destruction information.

Hmm maybe, but that does not truly contradict the Republic knowing what kinds of ships were attacking them after the first Sith attack....

 

I have nothing further to say as I feel it cannot be said any clearer... But thanks for asking!

Are you thereby saying you support what I wrote ??

 

It doesn't matter the craft, or insignia, as long as the driver/pilot has the proper coded responses that's all that matters. It doesn't mean they cannot be closely monitored, but as long as there is no hostile action they will be allowed to proceed unmolested.

 

This renders all your equipment examples moot!

Did you ever notice that the crafts in SW and also KOTOR 1&2 are highly standardized? Only about 2 types of capital ships and 2 types of fighters are shown on the Republic side and as far as I know only 2 types of Sith ships and 1 type of fighter on the Sith side... (these numbers could be wrong but I think you'll get the idea). Do you truly believe a completely new (and strange) design showing up would be a common event and accepted as such?

 

The loss of a planet to a new enemy would not be let out as quickly as you might think, and though my previous statement was about the Sith controlling information, the same would apply to the Republic. Hence the loss of Telos would only be made public after it has gone through the proper channels.

*cough* Taris *cough* That information spread pretty quickly. And btw. in the SW universe information technically takes 0 time to travel (e.g. Sidious talking to the viceroys on Naboo from Corouscant)

 

Could you maybe just post your own version of the story with all the details so I can understand properly....?

[BattleDog]

He never mentions a third party, does he? No.

 

If you are recruiting for a conspiracy you never reveal everything to the recruit, you only reveal this information once the Recruit is beyond the 'point of no return'.

 

Yes, true, I think what your missing though is that you don't turn up in a suspicious ship either, that was the point I think. Side arguement anyway, not really relevant.

 

My reply above was hypothetical. Being you never have seemed to hear of such things as jamming or information control.

 

Please try not to be insulting.

 

Jamming and information control are no longer effective, the last effective information control was during the Faulklands War, 1982. They did it by sticking all the journalists on the ships and not letting them go home. They were only able to control the information because the Navy had all the comms gear. These days its not possible, because of the internet. A similar data transfer system exists in Star Wars.

 

The fact is the Republic fleet arrives a few hours later to witness the aftermath of Telos, it still would not be known by the surrounding systems for quite some time. The reasoning for this is simple, the Republic Military wouldn't want the information that renegade ex-republic forces were running around in new types of ships destroying worlds... you need to take into account politics what you deal with information of this nature.

 

There would be a serious amount of political "red tape" and subsequently a time delay to the public with this Telos Destruction information.

 

Firstly, if the Republic arrived within hours relief efforts would begin within hours. The Rupublic would not leave people in orbit for weeks, this happened over Taris because the Sith controled the system and the Republic couldn't get to them. Remember, by the end of the war the Republic war machine is stretched to breaking point, not so in the begining.

 

I have nothing further to say as I feel it cannot be said any clearer... But thanks for asking!

 

Please don't be patronising.

 

Actually it is the other way around. You see recognition codes are generated for each type or class of ship, so the Falcon wouldn't have matched the stolen codes of the Imperial Shuttle... If your recognition codes are for a Winnebago then you need to fly a Winnebago. So the stolen recognition codes in EP VI needed an Imperial Shuttle to be authentic, and this totally proves my point about codes and Spacebourne Naval Operations.

 

Where is this ever said, anyway if that were true the Bothans would just have fabricated codes for the Falcon. Both the Shuttle and the codes were needed in and of themselves, not just the shuttle because of the codes. It was a two layer deception.

 

Why is it so hard to grasp that Saul Karath a Republic Admiral could fake the proper recognition codes? It isn't.

 

No, its not hard, but then if thats true why did none of the Brass on Telos think of it. The head of the TSF would probably be equil in rank to Saul and certainly high enough to question him. Remember the war only ended a year ago, people will still be suspicious.

 

Another thing to remember is Admirals, who can change their ships quite frequently, would have a recognition code all their own, as their "flag" as it is named, can be transferred between ships.

 

It doesn't matter the craft, or insignia, as long as the driver/pilot has the proper coded responses that's all that matters. It doesn't mean they cannot be closely monitored, but as long as there is no hostile action they will be allowed to proceed unmolested.

 

So now your saying you can't just get away with anything, provided you have the codes? Saul would still have to explain the new ship. Craft that size would be built at Kuat, Correllia of Fondor. All those worlds are Core Worlds, so hiding the ship would be hard, added to which your A-Bomb example is flawed:

 

When Saul arrives the War is over, therfore whater new toy he has isn't going to be used against the Mandalorians.

 

No I don't, I fully support myself in my post, it is mainly the misinformed younger people who do not recognise just what secrets are and how valuable they are in warfare and politics in general.

 

If you don't support yourself then your arguement is flawed. I do understand the concept of missdirection, however it only applies in the way you suggest durring hostilities. In peacetime governemnts are far more open. We contrantly hear about how the F-22 and Eurofighter are doing. Not to mention the two new carries the Royal Navy is having built.

 

I'm sorry but your Freedom Of Information Act theory doesn't play in the face of the ways the different Branches of the Military actually conduct themselves, your secrets alone could mean the difference between defeat and victory.

 

Let my respond here by saying that the branches of her Majesties' Armed Forces do work together and comunicate because, as I've already said, lack of communication at high level gets people killed on the ground. Further I suggest that you go to a bar near your loacl base or what ever and engage some NCO's and Pritates in conversation, you'll be suprised how candid they can be about their lates toys. How do you think the Russians got all their information. You can't keep something secret if you have thousands of people working on it. Thousands would have been needed to build Saul's ship conventionally.

 

 

This is true but I was answering a hypothetical question with a like answer. But I do now see that it would never occur to you two that it is necissary to control the flow of information in a war.

 

The loss of a planet to a new enemy would not be let out as quickly as you might think, and though my previous statement was about the Sith controlling information, the same would apply to the Republic. Hence the loss of Telos would only be made public after it has gone through the proper channels.

 

Controlling this sort of information is possible only in the very short term, days if not hours. Rescue efforts have to be begun and reffugees have to be housed. Short of locking everyone up the Republic couldn'e keep it quiet, even if they tried the sheer human scale of the disaster would mean leaks very quickly. In that situation its best to be first out with the information and focus on the positives.

 

So? You are again making an assumption that information flows freely in military ranks, and I'm sorry but it doesn't. That's a fact!

 

No it is not, information flows quite freely at operational level, bacuase it has to. In the British army every soldier knows what is going on up to company level, at Platoon level he knows everything.

 

*Cough* Manhatten Project *Cough* You know about that one right?

 

Special case, see above.

 

It doesn't matter if you accept this truth or not, like it or not, and regardless of the country of origin, this is the way Military forces and even governments work.

 

Did I mention I'd fully rated with an SA80 and LSW machine gun. not to mention being a qualified radio operator and medic? I speak from personnal experience.

 

All countries have their secrets, secret projects, and new technologies. What you occasionally see as new technology and weaponry on the Discovery and Military Channel is nothing compared to what they are really working on.

 

Now who's living in a fantasy world? I don't watch discovery but the last "black" project was the Stealth Fighter. You may have noticed a lack of new tech in the last ten years. There isn't a lot of money going into the Scunk Works anymore. Most of it is just trying to work out how to fit a cup holding into an F-18.

 

I find your naievite on this whole subject quite entertaining and disturbing at the same time.

 

Once again I'd ask you to refrain from insults, they devalue your arguement.

 

I might suggest a book titled "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu, a very good read on the subject of warfare.

 

Yes, Master Sun was very wise, he also didn't have to woryy about modern comunications. Nor is the be all and end all.

[SITHSLAYER133]

sun tsus theroies are no longer good enough to suit the changing pace of warfare they might have been good in fudel japan but are kinda worth less now days

[RedHawke]

BattleDog,

 

I see I must have struck a nerve to have insulted or patronised you 3 times. Sorry for that, it was not my intention to insult you.

 

Besides re-read those first group of statements all the way down to "I have nothing further to say as I feel it cannot be said any clearer... But thanks for asking!" those were replying to YertyL not you.

 

YertyL wrote to me in an above post...

 

b) Anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize

Going by your logic I should have been insulted by this, but I wasn't. You shouldn't take these posts too seriously, we are talking about a fantasy world here. Perhaps you need to grow some thicker skin.

 

*Sigh* But your message to me saying I was insulting to you is understood.

 

I can now see that this conversation is over, because from here it can only get even more ugly as you seem to have a problem with sarcasm and humor, so now I will return it back to the beginning, like it or not guys this is how I see it...

 

The Sith Leviathan was not Saul Karath's ship during the Mandalorian wars, it can be deduced that though the ships might be named the same Saul got this new Leviathan before the destruction of Telos. This jives with what Carth implies... let me elaborate.

 

The Leviathan was recognised by Carth as Saul's Flagship, simply because Revan and Malak had found the Star Forge and started building ships before Saul went to Carth to recruit him before the attack on Telos, he could have easily traveled to Telos in the Sith Leviathan because Saul was still a Republic Admiral... hence Carth would recognise the Leviathan as his old commanders ship because Carth had been on it before when Saul tried to get Carth to join him, before Saul was to level Telos.

 

This is my take on it anyway!

I sure wish I could view the world as ideally as you do BattleDog, but expirience, age, and harsh reality tend to put this kind of idealism in its place.

 

It has become time for an 'agreement to disagree' between all of us and we should move on...

 

On a side note, I applaud you for serving your country BattleDog, that isn't a light decision espicially nowadays.

 

@ YertyL, all the answers you seek are either in the games dialogues or this thread. Because of these new "I'm being insulting" claims I will not continue this discussion and risk insulting people further.

[SITHSLAYER133]

btw since when does any force want to show how in adequet they really are by telling

peoples about there weaknesses or strenghts

[YertyL]

Actually, with "Anyone who is not mentally handicapped would realize" I was referrring to someone in Carth's situation, not you (just in case you understood it this way)

 

Besides, I just wanted you to write a full story so I could more accurately point out the (IMO existing)flaws in it... it is very hard to argue consequently while jumping from one issue to another.

Still... could you answer to the arguments I meantioned in my last post? ( I promise I won't feel insulted in case you do not intentionally try to )

 

I still cannot see how "on the losing side" does not implicate the existence of another side,i.e. an enemy. (and the other things I mentioned in the last post of page1)

[BattleDog]

RedHawke, the nerve you struck was the "youth and idialism" one. I'm actually not an idialist at all, I'm a hard line cynic, however the Republic is rather an idialistic government. talk to me about the US, the UK or the UN and you'll get a very different story.

 

No hard feelings, just a bit of advice though, maybe keep the emotives out of debates, just to avoid misunderstanding.

 

I think what we may be dealling with is a plot whole. Niether view makes total sense, so I suppose we'll just have to drop it in a black whole and leave it.

[DeSade]

Firstly, if the Republic arrived within hours relief efforts would begin within hours. The Rupublic would not leave people in orbit for weeks, this happened over Taris because the Sith controled the system and the Republic couldn't get to them. Remember, by the end of the war the Republic war machine is stretched to breaking point, not so in the begining.

 

This is correct.

 

The fleet didn't arrive at Telos within hours that was never said, what was said by Carth was that his Strikeforce arrived within hours. That implies no more than about 30 people and maybe 2-3 ships. There is no way they would have had the capacity to pick up the in-system shuttles. This idea is supported by the convo when Carth is saying they did what they could with limited resources and people.

[RedHawke]

Still... could you answer to the arguments I meantioned in my last post?

YertyL,

 

Most of your questions I have already answered, you see at this point I have written my take on the events, there is nothing else I can say on this subject that won't be repeating what I have already wrote IMHO.

 

Besides BattleDog was getting upset, and that kills the discussion for me... sorry. I'm not here to upset people. To learn things, yes. To educate people, yes. Make people laugh occasionally, yes. To upset people, no.

 

As BattleDog has pointed out the game clearly states neither view to everyones satisfaction so some guessing is involved, with that the topic does become pretty much moot and we get a circular argument.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

BattleDog,

 

No hard feelings! Though I will not change the way I post.

 

I will offer some reciprocal advice, try to not take things so seriously when posting around here. If what I said offended you then you are in for a bumpy ride as there are many who would be far less tactful than I am in a similar discussion with you.

 

About dropping the subject into a black hole... consider it done!

 

Possibly KOTOR III will answer some of these questions... well, we can hope!

[BattleDog]

Great glad thats sorted, I hate when Devs get sloppy like this, which is what I think happened.

 

DeSade: A Strike force is usually two Frigates and Crusier at least, which means a grew running into thousands and about 10-30 shuttles depending on the size and type of the ships.

 

For a whole planet that is limited resources.

 

Just an FYI.

[DeSade]

Great glad thats sorted, I hate when Devs get sloppy like this, which is what I think happened.

 

DeSade: A Strike force is usually two Frigates and Crusier at least, which means a grew running into thousands and about 10-30 shuttles depending on the size and type of the ships.

 

For a whole planet that is limited resources.

 

Just an FYI.

 

Guess my thinking is too Earth-Bound for that one.