How Does Darth Vader use the Force...

[Kurgan]

Yup, and all throughout your body. Just like Qui-Gon said... they're in all your cells.

 

But he never says that only the midis in your hands are responsible for Force powers. Otherwise as I said in the OP, "how can he use the Force"... since he lacks physical hands! Why can't the midis in some other part of his body enable lightning? You haven't addressed that issue.

 

Exactly.

 

And if a more plausible explanation exists, what's wrong with exploring that one? A lot of the official material is completely bogus. Some of it gets "corrected" eventually, some of it merely overwritten by something else of Lucas's creations. Can't we question it in the meantime?

 

Perhaps Palpatine just refused to teach Vader lightning, or it wasn't his style. People often say "well we never see Anakin use lightning so he must be unable to use it." By that same logic we could assume that Palpatine is unable to use Force Choke, because we never see him use it!

 

So just out of the air? Or perhaps you are suggesting a Force "thunderstorm" power that spawns thunder clouds, and the lightning can come out of there?

 

Why not, its the same place all the other Force abilities come from. Where does the Force Lightning come from, if not from the energy field that is the Force? Are you suggesting his hands are car batteries? And in real life lightning comes from clouds, but you can generate electricity without them, obviously.

 

If such artificial hand were made out of a pure beam of energy like a lightsaber, then yes it could.

 

You act as if nothing can stop a bolt of lightning except a lightsaber blade. You know this is patently false. This is just an example of one object that can do it, to demonstrate that you don't need "Midichlorians" to stop a bolt of Lighting... generated by the Force or otherwise. For example in Star Wars you can stop energy with shields, with force fields, and with dense materials. For example Vader's armor and armored surfaces resist blaster bolts and lightsabers.

 

But we know that Vader's suit didn't give him energy beams for arms. Therefore they don't work like that.

 

And yet, we know you can stop energy with other things besides lightsaber blades. In fact, there are quite a few ways to stop them. It's not like Lightning is a universal solvent that just burns through anything, regardless of strength. Lightning seems weaker than blaster bolts and lightsabers, and blaster bolts and lightsabers can be stopped by shields. I'd wager that shields can stop Force Lightning.

 

Totally different. Resistance to lightning is a physical ability; resistance to mind tricks is an intellectual characteristic.

 

Is it? If all Jedi powers are "generated by the mind" (what, is the brain a giant battery that stores energy fields?) then lightning operates on similar principles to the mind trick. If one is a physical attack and one a mental attack I can see your distinction. You can't resist a Force Push with your mind. Or can you? I think your understanding of "The Force" would have to answer that question. If a Jedi resists another force power is he using his mind or is he using his hands? Notice that even during Mind Tricks Jedi use hand gestures.

 

 

Not sure what you refer to here...

 

Lightsabers resist Force Lightning. Shields resist Jedi powers apparently, or else why didn't Obi-Wan or Qui Gon try to use the Force to bypass the Droideka shields or the red fields while they were dueling Maul, or the "ray shields" that encased Anakin and Obi-Wan? Obi-Wan appears unable to escape from the "energy cage" (whatever that blue stuff was) he's held in by the Seperatists when he's captured on Geonosis. And finally, Droids resist mind tricks (okay that last one was a joke!). There may be other examples, but those are off the top of my head.

[El Sitherino]

As for "being invulnerable to it" part that's an obvious load of BS. He can clearly block energy (Han's blaster bolts) with his cybernetic hands, and he could easily block the lightning with his saber like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu did.

 

So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.

 

Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.

 

The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force. He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it, just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.

[TK-8252]

But he never says that only the midis in your hands are responsible for Force powers. Otherwise as I said in the OP, "how can he use the Force"... since he lacks physical hands! Why can't the midis in some other part of his body enable lightning? You haven't addressed that issue.

 

Well, where DO you want it to come out of? Eyes? Toes? Groin?

 

Why not, its the same place all the other Force abilities come from.

 

This is different. All other Force powers are invisible, such as pushing/pulling or making objects float, etc. Lightning is the only visible power, which is why it has to come from SOMEWHERE.

 

Where does the Lightning come from, if not from the energy field that is the Force? Are you suggesting his hands are car batteries?

 

It comes from the fingers. Why it can only come from the fingers? Because it looks badass, period.

 

You act as if nothing can stop a bolt of lightning except a lightsaber blade. You know this is patently false. This is just an example of one object that can do it, to demonstrate that you don't need "Midichlorians" to stop a bolt of Lighting... generated by the Force or otherwise. For example in Star Wars you can stop energy with shields, with force fields, and with dense materials. For example Vader's armor and armored surfaces resist blaster bolts and lightsabers.

 

We've only seen a lightsaber used to deflect lightning (except Yoda absorbing it), but what does a lightsaber have in common with shields, forcefields, etc. They're all beams of pure, raw energy.

 

Is it? If all Jedi powers are "generated by the mind" (what, is the brain a giant battery that stores energy fields?) then lightning operates on similar principles to the mind trick.

 

All Jedi powers are generated by the mind, yes. Lightning is a power specific to Sith, therefore it is an exception.

 

If a Jedi resists another force power is he using his mind or is he using his hands?

 

Resisting another Force power, like what, when Obi and Vader are pushing against eachother during their Mustafar duel? In that case they're both using their minds to push against eachother.

 

Notice that even during Mind Tricks Jedi use hand gestures.

 

A lot of times hand gestures are used, but are not needed. For example, Vader often gestures when he chokes, and other times he doesn't. You don't need to make a "pushing" gesture to push with the Force, but they usually do because it helps with concentration.

[El Sitherino]

The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.

Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.

[Kurgan]

So... you never saw RotJ it seems. The lightning destroyed his life support system, and the thing about him not being able to use force lightning because of his arms is because the energy is projected from the flesh.

 

So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.

 

Metal + high voltage of electricity = retardation on ice.

 

What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity? And before you go "well duh, 'cause he died" realize that Vader is not encased from head to toe in metal, most of his suit appears to be some kind of cloth. But could he use his armor gauntlets to block lightning? I don't see why not. After all, another part of his armor, his should pad, resisted Luke's lightsaber. That proves it's stronger than say, Super Battledroid armor.

 

The blaster blocking "with his hand" was for show. He's merely creating a barrier using the force.

 

Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?

 

Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)

 

He could technically do the same for lightning, but that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to it,

 

I agree. The quote is stupid to use the term "invulnerable." Who is "invulnerable"? Somebody encased in a force field would be "invulnerable" to a lightning attack, but the thing is, "invulnerable" implies something without limit. If you could keep generating energy for a long long period of time, perhaps the shield would eventually be drained and then you'd be vulnerable. Or perhaps a sufficiently powerful charge could drain the shield more quickly. Who knows. Did they say "Mace Windu would never be invulnerable to Lightning" or "Yoda would never be invulnerable to Lightning"? Clearly neither of them were, despite their ability to block it they both were severally zapped.

 

just means he knows how to keep it from messing him up. But the thing is he sacrifices himself to destroy Palpatine and save his son, redeeming himself and destroying the Sith.

 

No argument there. Rather the argument is being made that something about Vader prevents him from using or blocking Force lightning. I don't buy that excuse.

 

To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?

 

Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu. So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it, or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.

[Kurgan]

The motions were generally done to convey what was being done to the audience.

Lightning is the only force power that requires a hand gesture because it requires direction and production.

 

And other Force powers don't?

[Kurgan]

Well, where DO you want it to come out of? Eyes? Toes? Groin?

 

If you insist that it HAS to be projected from a body part, and you don't have a hand to use, why not? Any body part will do. I'm sure the reason Lucas doesn't have Yoda do pelvic thrusts at his enemies is his own sense of decorum, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible.

 

This is different. All other Force powers are invisible, such as pushing/pulling or making objects float, etc. Lightning is the only visible power, which is why it has to come from SOMEWHERE.

 

Why? The invisible powers "have to come from somewhere" too, don't they? They're all coming from the energy field of the Force. Why couldn't one make a bolt of lightning appear and zap somebody? If the other gestures are "just for show" then so too can the Lightning "gestures."

 

 

It comes from the fingers. Why it can only come from the fingers? Because it looks badass, period.

 

Okay, so you would NOT argue that chopping off Palpatine's fingers would render him unable to toss lightning anymore.

 

We've only seen a lightsaber used to deflect lightning (except Yoda absorbing it), but what does a lightsaber have in common with shields, forcefields, etc. They're all beams of pure, raw energy.

 

We don't exactly know what a lightsaber blade is, but for the sake of argument let's say it has something to do with energy. Fair enough, however, we've also seen non-energetic items resist lightsabers and blaster bolts...things like body armor, starship hulls, blast doors, walls, etc.

 

All Jedi powers are generated by the mind, yes. Lightning is a power specific to Sith, therefore it is an exception.

 

So Lightning is generated by the fingers? Interesting. If these other powers are generated by the mind, why don't the Jedi "head butt" (head bang?) their powers, and instead wave their hands or fingers?

 

If it's all just for show, then again I say why can't the Lightning gestures also be "just for show"?

 

Resisting another Force power, like what, when Obi and Vader are pushing against eachother during their Mustafar duel? In that case they're both using their minds to push against eachother.

 

And yet they are both using their hands as well. Why not resist with your mind and push your lightsaber to slash the other guy's raised palm (since he's being an idiot putting it out in the first place).

 

Now during all this if we're just going to argue "dramatic purposes" then we might as well argue that the reason we don't have everyone using lightning is because Lucas wanted to make the Emperor's powers seem exotic and unique. Grip has also become Vader's "signature move." It gives him character. That doesn't mean he's the only one who ever uses it of course, but we associate it with him.

 

A lot of times hand gestures are used, but are not needed. For example, Vader often gestures when he chokes, and other times he doesn't. You don't need to make a "pushing" gesture to push with the Force, but they usually do because it helps with concentration.

 

When have we seen somebody Force Push and NOT use a hand gesture? Or Pull for that matter? Force powers used without gestures seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

[El Sitherino]

So then a person with no hands can't use the Force. Thank you for playing.

Learn to read.

 

 

What makes you think Vader's armor can't resist electricity?

Because the movie shows as much. And my metal + electricity thing is in regards to his arms.

 

Is Yoda blocking lightning "with his hand" also for show?

Pretty much, yeah.

 

Why couldn't Yoda block the lightning with his a$$? (I mean for argument's sake)

Because that's retarded for many reasons and you should know better than to ask such a stupid question.

 

 

 

To use another example, most Jedi are perfectly capable of blocking blaster bolts. They can block them all day long, we've seen it. And yet, these same Jedi can also be killed by blaster bolts. How do we explain that?

Because using the force requires concentration.

 

Yoda is capable of blocking lightning. But he's also capable of being zapped. Ditto with Mace Windu.

Uh.. okay.

 

So if Vader can be mortally wounded by Lightning, that doesn't mean he is incapable of blocking it,

No one said he can't block it, only that he can't use it.

 

or even using it himself. I would attribute his lack of use of the power as lack of knowledge, not something in his physical structure that prevents it.

I still buy the scientific fact that metal arms projecting electricity = jackass stunt. It's like putting foil in the microwave.

[El Sitherino]

And other Force powers don't?

Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.

[Sabretooth]

Correct, all you need for the other powers is mind. Lightning requires physical actions.

 

Yeah, but can't you think of lightning originating from somewhere else. I mean, can't you think it and lightning shoots in from the window, or better yet, the target just gets instantly electrocuted, like Force Choke + Lightning.

[Kurgan]

Because the movie shows as much. And my metal + electricity thing is in regards to his arms.

 

I believe I already explained why this isn't a given.

 

Pretty much, yeah.

 

At least you admit it. So if the hands aren't required to BLOCK lightning, why should they be required to USE it?

 

Because that's retarded for many reasons and you should know better than to ask such a stupid question.

 

But it effectively illustrates my point. Since it's just for show he could block it with his tongue, his ear lobe, or with no body part just as effectively.

 

Because using the force requires concentration.

 

So if Vader concentrates, he can block Lightning. Excellent!

 

No one said he can't block it, only that he can't use it.

 

The VD says he he can't block it, though with totally bogus wording ("will never be invulnerable to it").

 

I still buy the scientific fact that metal arms projecting electricity = jackass stunt. It's like putting foil in the microwave.

 

And you assume a scientifically advanced culture like Star Wars can't produce a metallic substance that resists lightning. We know they can produce dense metals that can resist more powerful forms of energy.

[El Sitherino]

I believe I already explained why this isn't a given.

So then why do we see his skeletal structure? Why is his suit a bit smokey while the Emperor's lightning is hitting him? I could go on, but it seems you refuse to accept the movie.

 

 

So if the hands aren't required to BLOCK lightning, why should they be required to USE it?

"Hands" are the guides and generators for the force lightning, the only other plausible place for lightning to come from would be the "feet".

 

 

But it effectively illustrates my point.

No, you can't block with your ass because taking your sight off of your opponent is stupid and will get you killed.

 

Since it's just for show he could block it with his tongue, his ear lobe

He could, but generally if he's putting up a barrier with help from his physical strength, the arms would be a better choice.

 

or with no body part just as effectively.

True, but maybe Lucas or his concept department felt it'd be more intense with him using his arms.

 

 

So if Vader concentrates, he can block Lightning. Excellent!

Yes, but if he did get hit by it, he'd die (RoTJ), where as someone unlike him would live.

 

 

The VD says he he can't block it, though with totally bogus wording ("will never be invulnerable to it").

I have a feeling they mean he wouldn't be able to walk away from it like he did when he was fleshy in AoTC, or Luke in RoTJ. Instead he'll die because his suit is effectively a mobile iron lung.

 

 

And you assume a scientifically advanced culture like Star Wars can't produce a metallic substance that resists lightning.

We all know the Emperor totally made that junk illegal, it'd work against him Lightning spamming the hell out of everyone that crosses him.

 

Anyway, resistance isn't the problem, it's conductivity. But I'll play along.

 

I personally don't care if they can or can't, hell that doesn't even matter because as far as evidence shows they didn't do that with his arms. Perhaps they were on a budget even though he is Vader.

 

We know they can produce dense metals that can resist more powerful forms of energy.

It may resist it, but it might probably conduct it which is the problem.

[Kurgan]

So then why do we see his skeletal structure? Why is his suit a bit smokey while the Emperor's lightning is hitting him? I could go on, but it seems you refuse to accept the movie.

 

You're missing my point entirely. I never said that he was invulnerable to lightning. In fact, saying ANYONE is invulnerable to lightning is misleading, which is why I call BS on the VD reference.

 

Mace Windu's skeletal structure also is displayed when he's getting fried by Palpatine. He screams in agony. He's clearly being hurt by the force attack.

And yet, earlier he was blocking the attacks quite admirably. So rather than assuming that Vader must be completely defenseless against lightning, why not say that he was "distracted" and unable to block it in the current circumstances (just as Mace was distracted by the fact that his hand had just been lopped off by Anakin's surprise attack). Yoda also gets zapped, and yet we see him block lightning quite easily in a former circumstance, and with some difficulty later on.

 

There's no reason to assume that Vader could not block lightning if he was "prepared," just as other Jedi have been shown to do.

 

I am not refusing to accept the movie. Rather I'm refusing to accept a BS interpretation of the movie from a piece of EU literature. People here that support it even seem to be confused about what it really means. Honestly the statement appears to be a clumsy tacked-on explanation for why we never see Vader use Force Lightning in the movies. It's weak at best, and ignores over evidence from the movie that suggests it could be otherwise.

 

Vader can block blaster energy with his armored gauntlets. He can block a lightsaber blow on his shoulder armor. His entire body is not armor. Let me make that perfectly clear.

 

Obi-Wan blocks Dooku's lightning with his lightsaber. Obi-Wan's entire body is not covered in lightsabers. Yet he can use the one lightsaber he has to block the lightning. In the same way Vader could use his armored gauntlets to block a lightning bolt. I would say the reason Vader is injured from Palpatine's attack (though the cause of death was hastened by Luke's removal of his mask combined with the physical exhaustion from his duel which probably sapped his strength in the force to stay alive...) is because the Lightning hits him in several places. If it had ONLY hit armored portions of his body then he probably wouldn't have recieved the damage he did. Much in the same way that if Han had gotten lucky and nailed Vader in the unarmored portions of his suit, he probably would have killed him. After all, we know Jedi can be killed by a few well placed blaster bolts.

 

And if Vader doesn't need his hands to block lightning he could block it with the force, if he wasn't distracted by his crushing the Emperor and tossing him into the pit.

 

"Hands" are the guides and generators for the force lightning, the only other plausible place for lightning to come from would be the "feet".

 

How do you know this though? Is this in the RPG? Does hacking off a person's fingers (Mafia style) render a Sith Lord unable to use the power anymore? Say his fingers get chopped off, he can't use the power anymore you say? And if he gets an artificial hand, he can't use it now? But what if he got fingers of flesh grafted on, could he use the power again?

 

No, you can't block with your ass because taking your sight off of your opponent is stupid and will get you killed.

 

Wrong. Jedi can "see" with the Force. We've seen Jedi block things behind their backs, AND we've seen them turn their backs on their opponents in order to attack (the famous "spin" move that Luke and Obi-Wan both use). At least you're admitting the possibility that it can happen, but only doesn't because of some tactical consideration. There's a large difference.

 

Aayla Secura has her back to the Troopers and she gets mowed down easily. Yoda has his back to his Troopers and he beheads them easily.

 

He could, but generally if he's putting up a barrier with help from his physical strength, the arms would be a better choice.

 

Do you realize that the gluteus maximus is one of the largest muscles in the body? Plus it's backed up the the legs, which are stronger than the arms. Yoda's low center of gravity might also work to his advantage in this regard.

At least you're admitting the possibilty.

 

True, but maybe Lucas or his concept department felt it'd be more intense with him using his arms.

 

But imagine the comic value if he were blocking it with his little green butt. C'mon, you know he'd bring the house down. Lucas is that kind of genius!

 

 

Yes, but if he did get hit by it, he'd die (RoTJ), where as someone unlike him would live.

 

Why, exactly? Totally unarmored victims have gotten hit with lightning and not died (in fact nobody in all the movies have died as a direct result of lightning hits). Vader was supposedly dying ("Nothing can stop that now"), probably due to his life support system being damaged in the fight. Much of his suit is exposed, no better than cloth for protection. If the armored parts of him were the only ones struck I'd be hesitant to think he'd have died from it. Just like in my example of Han Solo shooting Vader in the "soft parts" rather than his hard parts (armored gauntlets protecting robot limbs).

 

I have a feeling they mean he wouldn't be able to walk away from it like he did when he was fleshy in AoTC, or Luke in RoTJ. Instead he'll die because his suit is effectively a mobile iron lung.

 

Who knows what they meant. "Invulnerable" implies no effect whatsoever. Superman is "invulnerable" to bullets. They just bounce off him and he doesn't even care. He doesn't get laid up in the hospital but eventually recover after being shot. Vader's suit may be his life support, but parts of it are protected and MUCH stronger than the skin of a normal being.

 

If Obi-Wan were struck in the shoulder with Luke's lightsabe swing, he'd lose an arm or possibly the whole upper part of his torso. If Coleman Trebore was shot in the hand with a blaster, he'd be in serious trouble (that actually happened!). Vader's armor may not be invincible, but it's much more resistant protection than any other Jedi we've seen, so I think you underestimate the amount of damage he could take.

 

We all know the Emperor totally made that junk illegal, it'd work against him Lightning spamming the hell out of everyone that crosses him.

 

Good idea. That's probably also why we don't see personal shield generators or ray shields anymore. But then we do see blaster and lightsaber resistant metals and metallic substances still. And both do demonstratably more damage to physical targets than Force Lightning.

 

Anyway, resistance isn't the problem, it's conductivity. But I'll play along.

 

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that Vader's suit is one giant lightning rod, and so therefore lightning hits him in one spot, it goes through and is amplified through his entire body. The only problem with this theory is that we see the same "bone glow" effect on Mace Windu. So Vader's case is not "special" (ie: we need not assume that his armor is what killed him by "cooking him inside his shell" without which he would have survived). Rather the gizmos exposed on his body (such as let's say the chest plate, which looks important) can be hit and physically damaged by the bolts, since they are unprotected. The cloth fibers covering his body seem to offer no protection from the lightning and so his flesh is zapped too (as would any other person). But his armor itself was intact.

 

Another problem with the "lightning rod" theory is that it assumes his armor is conductive. The lightsaber hit of Luke's should have cut through his armor, or at least melted the shoulder piece. Yet it didn't. Han's shots should have turned Vader's gloves molten, or heated them up so much that the robot hands inside would be damaged (Luke's robot hand gets shot and it survived, but it was only shot ONCE, not multiple times by Han's blaster which is supposedly a modified high powered firearm). Most agree that Vader did use the Force at least partially to block Han's shots (or at least direct them into his palm away from the rest of his body), but we do see some smoking effect and sparks fly off of his other hand, which he whips back. Vader yelps when Luke smashes him on the shoulder and we see sparks, etc. So it may hurt, but it at least stops and reduces the damage inflicted.

 

"Ah ha!" you are thinking, if the shoulder was HURT, it must mean the energy went through the armor to injure his flesh underneath! Perhaps, but it may be equally possible that the armor absorbed the energy and heat from the hit, but not the physical impact (so rather than being cut in half, it was like being slugged by a baseball bat). He may have been reacting to the actual blow (the kinetic energy of Luke's hit), not the energy bleeding through.

 

Perhaps Palpy's lightning would have turned Vader into a charred cinder had he not had the suit on, we don't know. The armor did provide some protection. The problem was that it had exposed areas, which allowed his vital systems to be damaged directly. So I'm not arguing the lightning didn't hurt him, only against this idea that his entire suit is the same and thus he couldn't block anything with it, or use lightning himself if he knew how.

 

I personally don't care if they can or can't, hell that doesn't even matter because as far as evidence shows they didn't do that with his arms. Perhaps they were on a budget even though he is Vader.

 

Perhaps. But I'd say Vader's armor appears demonstratably stronger than Stormtrooper or Battledroid armor with the blows he takes in the films, so it's definately higher quality. It doesn't render him invulnerable, but it certainly makes him a hardier target than your average joe in the SW universe. Luke how hard Luke has to swing to cut off Vader's hand in ROTJ. He uses all his strength in a fury and the blade goes through and hacks a guard rail in the process. And yet, the same gauntlet withstood shots from Han Solo's gun. It's resistant. Not indestructable, but it shows that they can create materials that offer some protection (much in the way a real world "bullet proof vest" provides protection from bullets but can still be penetrated by multiple hits or large enough calibur).

 

Anyway, poor or even non-conductive materials can already be done in real life to some extent. I imagine an infinitely more advanced society like Star Wars is capable of even greater things. Their armoring against blasters, lightsabers and other energy weapons (even without shields) indicates that it's well within their grasp. The hits Vader shrugs off indicates at least some minimal care went into the creation of his own armor. I mean for crying out loud, blasters leave smoking HOLES in stormtrooper armor. Battle Droids are cleft in two with glowing edges. Vader's armor gets a little dirty and smokes a little, at worst (with the one exception of Luke cutting off his hand.... which almost looks like its more torn off than cut off... notice how the wires sticking out aren't melted).

[JerAir1587249581]

I'm too lazy to read everything everyone has said so far, but I have played the RotS DS game and at the end it shows Vader using lightning-without his hands, just coming out of his torso and extremities. It was the part when he found hout he'd killed Padme, where in the movie, he crushes everything.

 

On a sidenote, dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.

 

I have read the RotS book, and it said the suit breathed and pretty much talked for Vader, but in RotJ, he is able to speak a little to Luke and breathe for a short time after his suit gets practically destroyed by Palp's lightning.

 

In my opinion, Vader would have owned Luke if he wasn't so cocky to try to kill Obi when Obi had the high ground. Obi might have died, Vader would have more midichlorians, and therefore, with Luke's crash course on the force and lightsaber handling, Vader would have put Luke to shame and killed him easily- but of course, he was holding back a little because Luke was his son. He would not have been pinned and had his hand chopped off by Luke in RotJ if he never tried to kill Obi- even when Obi had the advantage, and he would never had to wear that suit, and therefore, again, would not have lost so many midichlorians

[MachineCult]

...dunno if this has been said before, Vader must have lost a whole lot of midichlorians when his extremities were chopped off by Obi at Mustafar. He must have had less than 50% the midichlorians he had before his arm was chopped off by Dooku.

 

As it was said in TPM, Anakins midichlorian count was off the charts, higher than Yodas.

and I think you have the whole midichlorian thing wrong, thats not really how it works, what you are saying is like saying if you get a bad cut and loose some blood you'll never have the same amount ever again.

 

The loss of a limb (or all of them) wouldn't mean the permanent reduction of the number of midichlorians in a body.

[Kurgan]

Good point. If midicholorians are inside your cells, then they would have to be reproducing themselves. Countless cells in your body die off each day, especially in your blood, but they are constantly being replaced (if they're not, you're in serious trouble!). So midichlorians inside your cells must also be reproducing.

 

One could easily argue that the midichlorians "left" inside his body just balanced things out and might be even more concentrated than before. After all, his blood doesn't need to circulate to those missing limbs anymore...

 

And if it were really somehow essential to have midi-blood everywhere you needed to use the Force, he could have had artificial veins circulating blood throug his cybernetic parts too (even though it wouldn't need to do anything, it would just be "there").

 

One theory on the "Oh, Vader is not as powerful as he could have been" thing is that perhaps you could see it this way... Yoda is an old cripple (he hobbles around with a cane), like Palpatine is. They both use the Force to "envigorate" their physical bodies so they can flip around or do other features that old men typically can't do without seriously hurting themselves. Heck, even Dooku is played by an actor who can't really do any of the heavy physical stuff you see him doing in the movie, so you might as well say he's using the Force to support his physical frame.

 

So if you think about the Force power available to each user (and I know this makes it sound very much like a video game but bear with me), some of this already has to be spent on keeping your body in shape, with less left over for the fancy powers and precognition for your sword fight. So a "younger" more physically fit Jedi/Sith would have an advantage in a battle with an equally power in the Force aged Jedi/Sith. Of course you could say the elder one generally would have gained more knowledge of the Force through experience, but again, they have to use more force to augment their frail body, which could otherwise be used for other things.

 

If we take the point of view that Vader's cybernetic parts are INFERIOR to biological counterparts, then we could say that Vader IS indeed a cripple. His cybernetic parts are inferior, and he uses the Force to "augment" them so he can do all his stuff. Without them he'd be bobbing around like C3PO. Mobile sure, but not combat worthy.

 

On the other hand, this doesn't quite jibe with what we've seen, because we KNOW they are capable in the SW universe of making robotic parts that are equal or even superior to biological ones (see General Grievous for the most dramatic example). Then again, perhaps that level of sophistication requires more "intrusive" surgery into the brain and spine than Vader wanted. After all he's more fleshy than Grievous and we don't see any electrodes sticking out of his head when Luke takes off his mask. So perhaps he didn't go for the extra stuff, and as a result he still had to compensate for his inferior tech in some way.

 

Now another possible take on this, relating to the above, may be something few agree with. I am not saying this is OBJECTIVELY RIGHT but Lucas seems to be continually promoting the idea in his movies that flesh and spirit is greater than technology. He's said that technology won't save us, he has the Kaminoeans boasting of clones being superior to droids. He makes the droids into comic relief, and he has Vader's "more machine now than man" being symptomatic of his fall and corruption. Lucas seems to view being robotic as being inferior. So perhaps in Lucas-Logic (invented a new term, woo!) the reason Vader is weaker is because he's become less "human."

 

He may feel that no matter how advanced, "droids" are always inferior to biologicals, so cybernetic parts are more a hindrance than a help.

 

In the case of Vader's death though, it's clear that the damage to his system is contributing to his death, not just the damage to his flesh. He seems to be paralyzed, implying that the robot suit was what kept him mobile below the neck. Could he have used the Force to animate his body (after all he used the Force before to keep himself alive so long on Mustafar, and both Jedi should have been killed by the heat near the start of their duel)? Perhaps, but apparently after all that fighting he just didn't have the strength anymore.

 

 

Another possible interpretation of the whole "Vader was not as powerful as he could have been" could be totally unrelated to his cybernetic suit. It could be that had he continued his career as a Jedi, rather than being so impatient, and gotten onto the Council of Masters and learned, etc (remember they said he was the youngest ever on the Council) he could have been a lot better. Instead he quit the Jedi and joined the Sith, and when the Jedi died, their teachings were effectively lost. He'd only have access to their writings (assuming he could still get to them and they weren't all destroyed) and to what Palpatine chose to reveal to him (and granting Palpy's knowledge of the Plagueis legend, he might not have felt like sharing everything, even with his trusted apprentice).

 

And perhaps if Anakin HAD been born in the Republic and trained from infancy he'd be even farther ahead than as things did play out.

 

And finally, if you believe Yoda, who says that the Dark Side is NOT stronger, then perhaps staying on the "good side" (the term "light side" comes from the EU) would mean he'd eventually become more powerful than he was as a Sith Lord.

 

Then again in AOTC Lucas says the Dark Side is stronger. But one could still interpret this as that the Dark Side is not stronger, but it does allow you to "shroud" the powers of unwary force sensitives, sapping their power and making them less than they normally would be. Perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to "break through" this shroud when they discovered the plot to destroy the Jedi, and this allowed them to suddenly start whooping butt on the troopers and Palpatine/Anakin, while the rest of the Jedi died like chumps from what should have been an easily thwarted attack in most cases. Anyway, that's all my speculation...

[JerAir1587249581]

Good points. I stand corrected in the cybernetic extremeties thing and the midi-chlorians thing, but I still think he lost a good amount of midi-chlorians from Obi and never fully regained all of them. I guess the main reason of why I think Vader wasn't as powerful because in RotS, he just slices and dices everyone in the academy, but he had a good bit of trouble with Luke, even if Luke didn't have much training at all, probably because Luke had a whole lot of midichlorians as well.

 

Will Lucas make up his mind? Either the Dark Side is stronger or it isn't. I know the Dark side is all about attack, and the Light Side more defence-oriented, but does it really make the Dark Side more powerful?

 

I've noticed in the movies that only the light side could enable people to become 'ghosts' in the force. When Obi sacrificed himself, I guess you could say he really didn't DIE, because he could still 'talk' to Luke. Was Qui Gonn the first to discover this power? In the RotS book, Qui Gonn's "ghost" appeared to Yoda, and yoda learned it. In the movie, Yoda says he will train Obi. This is what he learned. Somehow Anakin learns and you see them all together at the end of RotJ (minus Qui Gonn)

 

I may be wrong about this "only the light side can enable you to be a 'ghost' " thing, but it's just an observation, I'm sure someone has said this before. I know Exar Kun trapped his 'consciousness (sp?)' into the Massassi temple, but he didn't really become a "ghost".

 

Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

[El Sitherino]

"quicker, easier, more seductive."

 

The darkside isn't stronger, as much is said in Empire.

 

Anakin stumbled upon the ghost thing out of his love for his son.

[Kurgan]

So it's quite possible that other people stumbled on it before Qui Gon.

 

The Dark Side being stronger are Lucas's words, not mine. Is he saying Yoda is wrong? Or is it something like the strength of the Darkside waxes and wanes... maybe sometimes it's actually stronger and holds more sway in the galaxy. It's not like in these stories the underdog can't win. Even if the Dark Side is a corruption and abnormality, that can still makes sense if it holds sway for a time.

[El Sitherino]

The only thing that makes the darkside stronger is that there is no restraint, but someone powerful in the force can face a darksider and stand level ground to them.

 

At least that's my guess since there's really nothing to the darkside except giving into your feelings, unlike the jedi who restrain ill will.

[Kurgan]

What about the ability to "shroud" the powers of others?

 

I mean, sure, the ability to "hide from other force sensitives" seems to have been learned by the Jedi finally in the OT era, but still. The above seems to be a unique power the Sith have.

 

The two powers together seem to be what Lucas was citing as proof that the Dark Side was stronger (in his AOTC commentary).

 

I wonder if he clarifies this or contradicts himself in the ROTS commentary? (I still don't have it yet)

[JerAir1587249581]

I remember in the RotS book it took the Analogy of the Light side to literal light.

 

Where there is light, there is a shadow. The shadow is the dark side. the more light, the more shadow. If there is no light, there is only darkness. But it is never like that for long.

 

I think this explains why Vader could kill those jedi so easily. After they all died, and Yoda and Obi died, there was only Luke (pretty much, but there was Leia.. but I'm not getting into that)

 

So if the light and shadow analogy is saying what I think it is, There wasn't a whole lot of light and the darkness was 'shared' between Palpatine and Vader. Maybe that's why vader had trouble with Luke?

[Kurgan]

Ah but couldn't you theoretically have "all light" in an area? Just fill every crevice (easier on a smooth surface), including in front of and behind objects, like a flash bang or something. You could even more easily have "all dark" with no light whatsoever.

 

Since visible light is just photos, and darkness the absence of these.

Anyway, it would be under perfect conditions but I think it would be possible, at least in my imagination.