Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

Perhaps. Make a hit on a person who parries the wrong way gets their movment slowed and swing restricted for a split second. Their slower movement could probably last a bit longer than their restricted swing.

Good idea, but that might not be needed. You gotta work pretty hard as is while on D.

 

BTW Razor, It might be a good idea to make a thread that documents the latest changes to the test server so people can stay up to date.

Smart Idea. Maybe I'll start doing that after the next release.

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Razorace,

 

I think that it's fair to say that those of us who show up online are at this point primarily concerned with saber dueling. And since adjustments aren't being made to firearms, there's little point in having them active in FFA and TFFA maps. Or perhaps you could ensure that the bots that are present are ones who'll eagerly use the lightsaber.

 

I used a portion of my lunch to try and play online, and virtually all the bots are shooters. Pretty annoying when all one wants to do is practice with the latest build. Saber wise, it was a very uneventful bot practice session.

 

Also, the majority of the time the bots completely ignored requests for private duels.

 

Is there a way to adjust the private duel effects so that they're not so garish in appearance, and more natural looking? Perhaps the overall gamma is turned down a touch for the environment, but for the private duelers they see each other normally, that is without the gamma being darker over the player models, their gear, and the special effects generated by the duelers and their equipment. It would just be nice to see the glaring yellows, blues, and brightly colored shadows replaced with something less distracting and more natural in appearance.

 

I'd have more to say regarding sabers, but that is if I had had the opportunity to use it.

 

Yours,

 

Kyle

March 7, 2006

 

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[Sushi_CW]

Perhaps. Make a hit on a person who parries the wrong way gets their movment slowed and swing restricted for a split second. Their slower movement could probably last a bit longer than their restricted swing.

 

I agree with Razor... defense is hard enough already. Besides, what the server sees as an "attempted" parry may not be in the player's eyes.

 

Also, I am really liking the changes so far. Something does need to be done (eventually) about gun balance though. For example, the repeater can drain a saber user's DP faster than you can say "ouch," and those bolts aren't even reflected back.

[razorace]

The gun attributes have already been changed quite a bit to try to balance them vs the saberers. As such, in the FFA/TFFA gametypes, players can use guns for testing purposes. If you don't like it, you're welcome wait until the map has switched.

 

I'll also look into making sure that players can vote to go to the next map in the cycle without allowing general map votes. That should allow you to switch map/modes without getting stuck in the gametypes you don't like.

 

As for the private duel effects, they are changable. However, as a coder, I'd prefer to work on gameplay/functionality changes before dealing with visuals. Maybe when we're farther along in the mod.

[razorace]

I agree about the repeater. While the change made the repeater graphically better looking, the fact that each hit counts as a block drains the crap out of jedi. I could either slow down the fire rate OR reduce the block cost vs repeater shots. What would you guys prefer?

[razorace]

 

I'll also look into making sure that players can vote to go to the next map in the cycle without allowing general map votes. That should allow you to switch map/modes without getting stuck in the gametypes you don't like.

Ok, I've enabled the map voting to allow nextmap and restartmap votes. Also, I'll try to set it up in the future so that the voting menus will only display the voting options that are currently availible.

[Tapela]

Perhaps. Make a hit on a person who parries the wrong way gets their movment slowed and swing restricted for a split second. Their slower movement could probably last a bit longer than their restricted swing.

 

I agree with the others and defense now is pretty tough with the changes from yesterday. So I think those changes would be unnecessary.

 

I agree about the repeater. While the change made the repeater graphically better looking, the fact that each hit counts as a block drains the crap out of jedi. I could either slow down the fire rate OR reduce the block cost vs repeater shots. What would you guys prefer?

 

I think make it so repeater shots drain less per shot but since they're so rapid it balances it out a little. Maybe also make it if possible to give the gun a spread fire so it is less accurate though really fast.

 

 

Razorace,

 

I think that it's fair to say that those of us who show up online are at this point primarily concerned with saber dueling. And since adjustments aren't being made to firearms, there's little point in having them active in FFA and TFFA maps. Or perhaps you could ensure that the bots that are present are ones who'll eagerly use the lightsaber.

 

I sort of disagree, while I am definitely interested in the increasingly awesome saber system and its balance I also really really look forward to the changes to the rest of the game, like force powers. I really liked that idea on making using no weapon make force powers cost slightly less/be stronger at the cost of being vulnerable. I also wonder how the gunner part will shape up to be, I've always been in favor of a class type thing like in MB2 except I've never really seen it used for dueling or FFA.

 

 

and finally..

 

Don't feel bad, man. Tapela is one of the best OJP E players at the moment and has played alot of even the past builds. Beating him more will take time.

 

Oh yeah, and great job finding that bug, Maxstate (paddy)!

 

I'm flattered to be recognized by you , most of my previous experiance with the mod was around earlier before the keshire animations got added then when they did and then I hadn't played the mod or JKA for a good while. Razorace is awesome at coding all this stuff its changed so much and continues to grow.

 

Also don't know how Mog would feel about that "him" thing

[JRHockney*]

Good idea, but that might not be needed. You gotta work pretty hard as is while on D.

 

Agreed. I actually posted this before I tried the new changes. Although you might want to keep this idea in mind in case you ever decide to lessen or get rid of the DP cost for parries again. This would only be the case if it is decided that it is too hard to go on defense (which I haven't heard any complaints yet).

 

I might recommend that you lessen or get rid of the DP cost for parries for people who's DP is on its flashing red bar, but thats your call.

 

I would also like to recommend that you make the following changes from my priority list before 0.0.9 is released for the sake of completeness:

 

3. Make red and desann DFA do more damage. They are next to impossible to hit with and they do so little damage, that they are hardly worth it. We tested it after you left and got a good laugh at how weak it is for the effort put into it.

 

4. allow running and swing hits when you are hitting at a slow bounce and dont remove slow bounce protection for such a hit (but only during slowbounce)

 

5. Make a person with a saber who's not swinging immune to lightning and maybe grip. Or for grip, if the person gripping gets pushed, make him get knocked over in that awsome new knock down animation. I think these should be easy enough to implement and be an easy fix until we start work on the force powers.

 

6. Create a cvar that disables dodge and lowers the DP/FP threshold for mishaps greatly or just make a cvar that adjusts mishap threholds period. Getting rid of the stuns as a slow bounce penalty will be essential to this as well because stuns = death in such a setting.

 

I also might suggest we test for unusual stun occurances as they still seem to pop up at inappropiate time on occasion.

 

Btw, if 0.0.9 is going to be released this friday, let me know about it on Thursday so I can write up a more complete saber system manual and email it to you.

[razorace]

I might recommend that you lessen or get rid of the DP cost for parries for people who's DP is on its flashing red bar, but thats your call.

Maybe we should try removing the desperation regens (since they aren't that realistic) and just make parries cost no DP in general?

 

Anyway, I agree with most of the recommended changes. I'll get on them when I have time. As for a possible release this friday, I think I'm going to hold off this week as well. Midterms are stressful enough as is.

[Sushi_CW]

Maybe we should try removing the desperation regens (since they aren't that realistic) and just make parries cost no DP in general?

 

Sounds good to me... worth a shot at least.

 

And also, I believe that it is already the case that if you can block lightning if you are directly facing a player trying to hit you with lightning and not attacking. Or maybe that only applies to single player. Either way, I think it's a good idea to have some sort of saber-based lighting defense. Preferably only when you are standing or walking though.

[Maxstate]

Maybe we should try removing the desperation regens (since they aren't that realistic) and just make parries cost no DP in general?

 

Anyway, I agree with most of the recommended changes. I'll get on them when I have time. As for a possible release this friday, I think I'm going to hold off this week as well. Midterms are stressful enough as is.

 

Wouldnt that make killing turtles even harder?

[JRHockney*]

Wouldnt that make killing turtles even harder?

 

Well, with the general damage greater and parries costing DP, it became too easy to kill turtles and put the gameplay a little too far in to the offensive end. Taking away the DP cost for parrying has helped it balance out more, although it has made turtling possible again.

 

Razor has taken the following steps to fix this, he has given the styles slightly different dp damages and raised the parrying range to make moving backwards less universal in parrying (with this change, it allow attacker to attack a turtler with lower strikes and make it possible to do DP damage).

 

Maxstate, I still can't get your animations to work, any suggestions? I dont really know anything able how to copy and paste animations btw. I dont know which is which.

 

After playing a little more, I would say the the DP cost for parrying should be a tiny amount though to help balance out things further. The heavier styles might need to slow down just a tiny bit, btw.

 

And Razor, you really need to take away that 4 FP cost for staff swings. It makes that weapon almost useless. The dual sabers 3 FP cost kind of makes sense at the moment because the fact that the two hit bug hasn't been fixed still makes that weapon kind of a buzzsaw (but not unbeatable). If you do decide to keep it like this, you might want to make hits do 10 DP damage rather than 12 for balance sake. Other than this, I love the slight damage changes to the styles.

[razorace]

Crap, IE ate my reply.

 

Anyway, we can also try different parry DP reduction levels if no DP is too much. Maybe 1/3 or less would work.

 

As for the style balancing:

 

I think the one handed weapons disarm was a good idea. When we were fighting, the disarm only came into play after my defenses had been battered and it felt like the disarm occured right when it should have.

 

For heavy hitter styles (red and purple), they should have a higher threshold for stuns. My reasoning is that increased damage comes from the player putting more force behind the blade. As such, getting properly parried results can result in the player getting stunned earlier than they would normally.

 

Finally, do we need to do something positive for the "weaker" styles to make it so players will want to play them or is the speedier swings/windups good enough as is?

[JRHockney*]

Anyway, we can also try different parry DP reduction levels if no DP is too much. Maybe 1/3 or less would work.

 

That maybe a good idea, but I would bring a little bit of the desperation thingy too. it's not too unrealistic. It's kind of like adrenaline. Or we could just penalize missed parry with the lesser stun thing I was talking about before.

 

For heavy hitter styles (red and purple), they should have a higher threshold for stuns. My reasoning is that increased damage comes from the player putting more force behind the blade. As such, getting properly parried results can result in the player getting stunned earlier than they would normally.

 

Hey! Thats kind of like my old idea!....or apart of it........hooray!

 

Finally, do we need to do something positive for the "weaker" styles to make it so players will want to play them or is the speedier swings/windups good enough as is?

 

Maybe lower their threshold a bit? Hmmm, thats tough one. Their biggest advantage is not only necessarily just the ability to hit first, Its more the ability to hit slow bounces easier which can be a huge advantage for someone hwo can aim.

[razorace]

I'm actually enjoying the combat better without the desperation stuff. It feels like I'm in real trouble rather than just needing to get a parry. Hopefully we'll add the Rage/Protection regens so players can have an oppertunity to regen faster in bad situations.

[Tapela]

For heavy hitter styles (red and purple), they should have a higher threshold for stuns. My reasoning is that increased damage comes from the player putting more force behind the blade. As such, getting properly parried results can result in the player getting stunned earlier than they would normally

 

 

 

 

You changed the styles? Why? The varying DP damage doesnt seem that bad but swing speeds and penalties like getting stunned seems to be really bad. Why use red if its slow and you get stunned for a little more dp? I havent tried it out yet of course but I don't like the sound of it at all .

 

Exactly how different is the dp with the styles? I liked the fact that you could use whatever you wanted because they were all the same speed and basically just different swing animations that you liked better than the other. How different are the styles now?

 

Also have you changed the force powers yet razorace? If so will most of them be changed for 0.0.9 release later down the line? I'm wondering myself how they'll be changed and if they will be usable in a fight, cause right now it costs too much for little advantage.

 

*Edit* Seems you did change the force powers a bit but I don't know how much, most noticable is lightning. So far I don't know if I like the slower windup or whatever for red style cause I feel unless I'm a good distance I cant swing without being force to block and getting dp damage to a slightly faster stance with winding up. Maybe its my imagination, I havent had much time to play the new changes and so I am completely new to it . Anyways nice force changes, I look forward to getting the hang of the new saber changes though.

 

Hopefully it is just me not knowing the changes and red stance hasnt gone the way of the staff saber as I liked using it for the style of the swings. Oh and I also think that not having recovery parries makes the duels much shorter because there isnt much you can do when you're in the red. It hurts the back and forth type of fighting but makes it so the fights don't last forever, I'm not sure how I feel about it personally yet but I know some may have liked being able to recover and come back.

[razorace]

Well, I've always wanted the styles to have slightly different attributes to give them more personality. The idea is to make the saber styles be a matter of preference than rock, paper, saber gameplay. Plus, I'm trying to make any changes be reasonable and realistic.

 

I've changed the force effects a little bit. I'll talk about that more in a upcoming force powers suggestion thread.

[JRHockney*]

The changes are pretty reasonable so far. I am a bit worried that there is becoming less strategy to the combat and too much swing spam though. At the moment, Its hard to say really tell at what point and for what move you have taken the advantage.

 

Because of this, I think we need to start think of some more possible techniques or exploits that happen in the fast saber combat portion of the fighting. I've already suggested that swing block less DP cost will swinging and getting hit idea, but you dont seem to like it (and it can be used while comboing!)

 

So keep thinking about ideas for this and I will do the same. I know that seemingly less structure (although its more structured now)swing spam is what turned off alot of mb2 player I know.

[razorace]

I disagree with that so far. Saber attack comboing is pretty difficult since you gotta keep alternating movement directions as impacts occur. Plus, we're in a slightly different position that MB2 because the saber parrying is more immediate and more rewarding.

 

I think the main issue is that most normal JKA players have gotten too used to saber duels lasting less than 30 seconds. Any system that makes the battles last longer than that make them feel frustrated. There's really nothing we can do about that without making the duels last only 10 seconds, which goes against the basic OJP Enhanced principles.

 

Personally, I think the saber combat in Enhanced is as intense as I've seen saber combat in a game. Being the single dueler in power duel against two humans is insane. The single dueler has to parry attacks from all directions while the team duelers manuver wildly to try to get back shots at the lone saberer. It's great!

 

Speaking of which, I was thinking that the way to balance power duel would be to make the doubles team have one less force mastery ranking than the lone dueler. As such, a game with a Jedi Master max ranking would allow the lone dueler to be a Jedi Master while the double teamers would be jedi knights. That should allow the lone dueler to use his force power advantage to keep the saberers at range.

[razorace]

However, I am a bit worried about the running like you mentioned earlier. We might have to nerf running a bit more to prevent players from running away from an attacker to simply recharge DP. Maybe double DP block costs for runners?

[Sushi_CW]

That sounds like a pretty good idea, although I think running should still be possible as a legitimate tactic (strategic withdrawal ).

[JRHockney*]

I disagree with that so far. Saber attack comboing is pretty difficult since you gotta keep alternating movement directions as impacts occur. Plus, we're in a slightly different position that MB2 because the saber parrying is more immediate and more rewarding.

 

Actually, it wouldn't make much of a difference in the existing comboing because you are already forced in to a block when you get hit first. The difference would be on the impacts because you could suddenly press the right block direction in the middle of your swing and save some points for what would already force you into a block and stop your comboing.

 

I think it might be worth a shot at least to see what happens. If people got too good at this, we could even increase the overall DP damages again or maybe lessen FP cost and make battles REALLY intense. THis might open up other possibilities for the combat in general too as far as maybe making this block allow for a quicker startup swing or something.

 

Speaking of which, I was thinking that the way to balance power duel would be to make the doubles team have one less force mastery ranking than the lone dueler. As such, a game with a Jedi Master max ranking would allow the lone dueler to be a Jedi Master while the double teamers would be jedi knights. That should allow the lone dueler to use his force power advantage to keep the saberers at range.

 

Sounds good to me. I am pretty sure that the lone saberer already has faster FP gain, but you might want to find out for sure. I'm pretty sure because I've notice a faster fp gain from all may time power dualing bots and then noticing how much more quickly I lose fp when I wait to double fight a single bot. Have you ever noticed that bots on single are a lot harder to beat than bots on double?

 

However, I am a bit worried about the running like you mentioned earlier. We might have to nerf running a bit more to prevent players from running away from an attacker to simply recharge DP. Maybe double DP block costs for runners?

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I present a script seen from: "Monty Python and the search for the Holy OJP E Jedi!"

 

King Jedi: CHAAARRRGGEE!!!!!!!!!!

(several saber hit sounds)

King Jedi: I'm out of DP!!! RUN AWAAAAYYYYY!!!!!!

(several saber swings missed)

King Jedi: He's out of FP from his swings!!! CHHHARRRGGGEE!!!

(Hacks off head)

King Jedi: Victory is mine! Now thats more than just a flesh wound!!

(roll credits)

 

Um, yeah. I agree. Doubling DP cost would probably be a good idea in general. Good thinking.

[Sushi_CW]

Actually, it wouldn't make much of a difference in the existing comboing because you are already forced in to a block when you get hit first. The difference would be on the impacts because you could suddenly press the right block direction in the middle of your swing and save some points for what would already force you into a block and stop your comboing.

 

I think it might be worth a shot at least to see what happens. If people got too good at this, we could even increase the overall DP damages again or maybe lessen FP cost and make battles REALLY intense. THis might open up other possibilities for the combat in general too as far as maybe making this block allow for a quicker startup swing or something.

 

I have to say, I don't like this idea very much. I think that committing to a swing should mean giving up some degree of defensive ability. I agree with Razor- leave it how it is.

[Alesh]

Totally off-topic for the current discusion, but seeing the thread has a "generic" title...

 

The Red DFA modification made me remember an idea i had a while ago; how about making something similar for blue style with the stab-down jump you do vs knocked down enemies? Instead of requiring a minimum forward speed it could have a maximum one, or require falling speed.

 

To be fair maybe yellow (well, all the styles really) should get a similar move too, but i'm not sure what it could be.

[razorace]

So, basically, the flip slash move would be modified to work as a knockdown move. I like that idea. I'll see what I can do.