Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

After all that testing, I'm pretty sure that the parry directional system is working properly.

 

Thinking about it, the old swing block idea might work...provided that the defender only taps the attack button. That way I could tell the difference between a windup for an attack and a start fake/swing block. However, this would be granting more to the defender. Maybe if this was offset by making the defenders taking full DP damage even when they parry? Well, we can give it a shot the next time someone is online to test this against.

[JRHockney*]

After all that testing, I'm pretty sure that the parry directional system is working properly.

 

Thinking about it, the old swing block idea might work...provided that the defender only taps the attack button. That way I could tell the difference between a windup for an attack and a start fake/swing block. However, this would be granting more to the defender. Maybe if this was offset by making the defenders taking full DP damage even when they parry? Well, we can give it a shot the next time someone is online to test this against.

 

I'm not sure about full DP damage to direct parriers. That may make them too much less practical to use. Maybe increased a bit though would even it out. I'll be available for testing later tonight.

[Sushi_CW]

After playing against humans again (mostly Razor), I take back some of my concerns. I think Razor is right... right now, we need human vs human playtesting more than anything. A lot of my concerns, I think, have been coming from the bots being insanely tough.

 

The melee-grapple thing, as it turns out, is a lot harder to do in an environment with lag, even against Bots, so it probably isn't that big of a deal.

[da_chimp]

so all we need is a perminant test server with regular players and little note pads in which we can write down any flaws we see and with more players we may get more ideas so it would be a champion win win situation

[razorace]

Well, for the most part, the code server has been filling that role. We've been much more productive since I can make dynamic changes to the code during testing.

 

However, we're still lacking in players, which just means that people have to get the word out about how neat Enhanced is. Right now, Enhanced is literially getting fewer downloads than "mods" with 3 word descriptions or less.

 

Anyway, in terms of the actual saber system, me and hocky where trying out the attack parries that hocky suggested ages ago. It's actually pretty cool, however, we're concerned that it might be too powerful.

 

In addition, we're thinking that part of the turtling problem might be that players have a very hard time attacking when low on DP. In fact, you're often penalized for being agressive with your back to the wall. Any ideas on how we could modify the DP/mishap system to get around that?

 

But, again, I think the main problem is that we need more hardcode testing. I think a lot of the issues turn out to be dramatically more/less important after playing a couple of real rounds vs real players. So, come play on the servers!

[JRHockney*]

Apart of thats my fault. I've been slacking on advertising the new Enhanced on the MB site because of the intial release problems and then me getting sick and busy at the same time. I was hoping to put the new Enhanced on JK files, but I've been too busy to figure out how to give them a 10 mb + size file. If anyone else wants to do this, and help with the distribution or advertising of this mod, Razor has already given permission for any one to do so.

 

Hey Razor. I think I've figured the best way to do that parry negating attack thing we were talking about:

 

After you press attack long enough to deliver a full swing, press and hold attack again to do the parry negation move. This will allow for immediate comboing ability and to break through the opponents intial parry. It is important to note that this move only do 1/2 the damage of a normal swing and is only really meant to help start a combo.

[razorace]

Well, the problem is that we can't detect button release and then holds like that with the current code.

[JRHockney*]

Well, the problem is that we can't detect button release and then holds like that with the current code.

 

Damn. It probably because the swing is just a swing after the point of start fake right? arrgh. Hmmm,here's two more options:

 

1. pressing attack and alt attack at the same time to just start it as a move that starts from the beginning.

 

2. press and hold alt attack before the collision. After the collision, you automatically start winding up for another swing in whatever new direction your pressing, but you have to let go of alt attack unless you want to do another parry negation move or attack fake or something.

[razorace]

It's because the program doesn't look for button presses outside of the decision points (like the transitions between animations or during a saber impact).

 

1. This might work.

 

2. This might work as well. However I can see how this might make the combat feel a bit funny since there'd be no visual feedback for the power swings.

[JRHockney*]

Alright, I still believe in the idea above, but after playing today, I noticed a few aspects of the saber combat the need to change, I think.

 

I noticed that the first minute of combat is intense and very close as to whos winning, but once both players start getting to around 30-40 FP (which usually happens close to the same time, they start playing very causiously and really are careful about how much they swing. At this point, its kind of like "whoever attacks a little more, loses!" This needs to change in my opinion.

 

I remember the reason for making swings cost FP was to prevent swing spam. Well honestly, given the fact that playing defensive is so easy and mounting a good offense is much harder, I don't think that swing spam even exists in our saber system (at least that swing spam that doesn't involve running, which hopefully thats too hard to do now).

 

Because of this, I would like to prepose a radical idea:

 

make regular swings cost no FP.

 

This would ensure that the action doesnt move a a snails pace when both players are at 30 FP. Although with this new addition we would have to rethink a few things like how the dual and staff are balanced, but I don't think that will be too hard.

 

The balance will happen by continuing to have your FP drain also occur 1 per block. I also think that a bigger FP penalty needs to happen when your dodge is activated, maybe 3-5 FP or something.

 

Consider this idea carefully or at least the reasons behind why I made it.

 

Btw, I noticed today that when I tried to use an attack fake an a person who I'm pretty sure was in the red zone, they didn't get mishaped even when I hit them in the back while they where running away!! You might want to recheck the code or fill me in on a change you've made to attackfakes causing mishaps.

 

Thats all I have time for right now.

[JRHockney*]

I have two things that still bother me about the saber combat:

 

1. When you your opponent blocks and you're close to him, often times his saber goes right through you. I'm not sure if anything else can be done to prevent this, but it looks tacky and might be worth the effort to fix. Do you think keshires blocking anims might help this?

 

2. That spin that often happens after you get hit and you turn around completely has really just annoyed me since it was first added. What was it for again? Most of the ime it happens, it just looks like a random turn around in the middle of combat. DO we really need it anymore?

 

Btw, have you been able to make any more progress on the saberlock anim disarm move?

 

OK, thats it for now. Hopefully I'll be able to find internet access more where I'm at.

[razorace]

1. This one can't really be helped due to the nature of the rendering system. We could technically increase the player's bounding box but then the players would be physically larger for fitting thru doorways and such.

 

2. That occurs when a player in a spin move gets bounced/blocked/etc. I suppose we could try fixing by doing something else but I'm not sure that would look right either.

 

And I haven't messed with the saberlock animations for disarming yet. Just haven't had the time.

[Maxstate]

Wtf is up with staff sabers?

 

Are they overpowered or is it just me? Today i was beating single saber bots and dual saber bots on Jedi master with ease, but the Jedi Trainer with the staff always beats me because i cant see the direction his saber is coming from since he just stays close to me and attacks. He also never loses enough fp to get disarmed or anything.

 

Wtf? Help would be appreciated.

[razorace]

yeah, staffs seem over powered at the moment. We're still working on trying to balance it.

[JRHockney*]

Wtf is up with staff sabers?

 

Are they overpowered or is it just me? Today i was beating single saber bots and dual saber bots on Jedi master with ease, but the Jedi Trainer with the staff always beats me because i cant see the direction his saber is coming from since he just stays close to me and attacks. He also never loses enough fp to get disarmed or anything.

 

Wtf? Help would be appreciated.

 

Yeah, bots with staff are rediculusly hard to kill. You'll have a much easier time with human staff opponents though. Btw maxstate, do you know how to use Dragon? I'm still having problems understanding it and you seem to at least know how to do replacments. If you do know how to use it, would it be possible for you to work on some possible block pose replacments that are cool looking, and closer or to the side of the blocker so they don't stick into the attacker when their activated. It's a pet peeve of me and many of us whenever our sabers plunge themselves into our opponent (in the block animation) without killing them.

 

Hey razor. I'll reiterate my old idea for balancing it again: Rather than all hits on staff only doing 50% of the normal damage, make them do 75-80% of normal damage and make hits on the back do much less damage. Staff will still cost 2 FP to swing and probably still only do 12 DP damage. This idea is more balanced and will still make staff the best weapon for taking on two opponents.

[Sushi_CW]

Has anyone else noticed that staff gets free combos? While playing a couple of days ago, I discovered that I could keep combo moves going without changing the direction of my attack. This made it very, very easy to do a lot of damage quickly with a staff, and fixing this might go a long way toward balancing the thing. Unless, of course, the free combos are an intended feature.

 

I've also noticed some situations where I seem to be making combo hits on my opponent, but MY DP is dropping like they are making combo hits on me (which they possibly are). Shouldn't this be impossible? Shouldn't at least one of us have our combo broken and be forced into a block? Has anyone else noticed this happening or am I just imagining things?

 

Also, I've noticed that in the vs. human playing I've been doing lately, I've had far fewer duels in which both players run out of FP and can't effectively attack. In general, it's felt quite well balanced. I actually kind of like the occasional multi-stage duel where both players are forced to take a break to recharge...it makes the whole thing more dramatic (although admittedly frustrating for anyone who is waiting their turn to play).

[RBitG]

I've also noticed some situations where I seem to be making combo hits on my opponent, but MY DP is dropping like they are making combo hits on me (which they possibly are). Shouldn't this be impossible? Shouldn't at least one of us have our combo broken and be forced into a block? Has anyone else noticed this happening or am I just imagining things?

 

Yes, when i chose Dual aswell, we just sat there for almost ten seconds making combos at each other, finally i died, but it was rather cheap.

[JRHockney*]

Has anyone else noticed that staff gets free combos? While playing a couple of days ago, I discovered that I could keep combo moves going without changing the direction of my attack. This made it very, very easy to do a lot of damage quickly with a staff, and fixing this might go a long way toward balancing the thing. Unless, of course, the free combos are an intended feature.

 

Good observation. No wonder staff bots seem to roll over us like freight trains. Thats worth a fix.

 

I've also noticed some situations where I seem to be making combo hits on my opponent, but MY DP is dropping like they are making combo hits on me (which they possibly are). Shouldn't this be impossible? Shouldn't at least one of us have our combo broken and be forced into a block? Has anyone else noticed this happening or am I just imagining things?

 

Let me guess, you both often enter the blocking position after it starts happening, right? This is the glitch I was talking about, Razor. It seems to happen alot, but its so fast its hard to tell what just happened.

 

I also noticed something really weird last night. On some maps, mainly the rift sanctuary, I noticed that their were weird occasions when I started losing DP slowly and went the block position really quickly as if I was being attacked be a ghost.

 

I also saw that weird glitch where you get pulled in random directions agin last night. This time, it happened to a player I was fighting.

 

YOUR SERVER IS HAUNTED!!!!!

[Sushi_CW]

I've also noticed some situations where I seem to be making combo hits on my opponent, but MY DP is dropping like they are making combo hits on me (which they possibly are). Shouldn't this be impossible? Shouldn't at least one of us have our combo broken and be forced into a block? Has anyone else noticed this happening or am I just imagining things?

 

To clarify: As far as I can tell, this happens with all saber styles, not just staff. I just noticed that I hadn't made that quite clear.

[razorace]

Good observation. No wonder staff bots seem to roll over us like freight trains. Thats worth a fix.

I haven't seen this behavior yet but I'll look into it when I have time. In theory all the styles use the saber transitioning code so I'm not sure why this would only be a problem with the staff.

 

Let me guess, you both often enter the blocking position after it starts happening, right? This is the glitch I was talking about, Razor. It seems to happen alot, but its so fast its hard to tell what just happened.

I'm not sure what you mean. Please explain some more.

 

I also noticed something really weird last night. On some maps, mainly the rift sanctuary, I noticed that their were weird occasions when I started losing DP slowly and went the block position really quickly as if I was being attacked be a ghost.

Don't know, haven't seen that one yet.

 

I also saw that weird glitch where you get pulled in random directions agin last night. This time, it happened to a player I was fighting.

Again, it's probably the minor differences between your movement code and the movement code that's running on the code server. This problem goes away whenever I release a new update.

[Sushi_CW]

A couple of other issues I've noticed:

 

1. Attacking enemies on the ground seems to be a bit ineffective at times... I've done two or three overhead swings right through enemies on the ground or getting up without doing any damage.

 

2. There are definitely some hit detection problems. For example, I've found myself dying...the game tells me that bot X got me. Problem is, bot X was on the other side of the room fighting someone else at the time. Either something is up with saber hit detection, or Jon is right and your server is haunted. I think that this might account for the seemingly random loss of DP that I've noticed and may have been seen by others.

 

3. There is an sporadically recurring problem where you ignite your saber, and it doesn't appear. Clicking attack will get it to ignite again, this time for real. I haven't been able to reproduce this one on call, but it does happen with enough regularity that you've probably noticed it by now (unless, of course, my client install is just messed up ).

[razorace]

1. I've noticed this too. I haven't decided what the problem is yet. It might just be that it's physically harder to hit players on the ground OR it might be that the bounding box is too small when the player is flat on the ground.

 

2. Odd, I haven't seen this at all. I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

3. Haven't seen this one either.

 

Remember with bugs, the more information I can get, the better. Unfortunately, these bugs sound like tricky, subtle ones.

[Sushi_CW]

I was getting Jon's "random player pull" thing today, on the Vjun duel map with 8 players (bots). It happened in the middle of a duel with one.

 

As far as the non-igniting saber, it generally happens when I'm meditating and get up by clicking (attacking). It makes a sound like it is igniting the saber, but it doesn't actually happen... however, sometimes it works just fine. I can never tell which will happen.

 

Also, for some reason, hit detection doesn't seem quite as sharp as it used to. When's the last time anything relating to this got tweaked? I know you recently put in something that gives good hit detection with a lower sv_fps value, but at this point I'm not convinced that the new one on low sv_fps is nearly as good as the old on on high sv_fps. My (possibly wrong) gut instinct is that this may be at least partly responsible for the difficulty of hitting enemies on the ground and maybe some of the haunting effects on the server.

 

I did some more investigation into the "free combos" thing... it turns out I can do the same thing in single saber! I can continually swing and chain hits from a single direction, without having to change the direction of attack. This goes against what I've been told is possible, and may be responsible for some of the wierd things that are happening in close quarter combat. It is also very easy to spam... bots at least I can defeat very quickly by simply holding down attack and walking in a circle around them, using the same side-swing over and over again. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet... I haven't had a chance to see how well it works against humans to try to exploit this "feature." It should be easy to parry, in theory.

 

A question: What is supposed to happen if two sabers hit each other in mid swing? I personally think it would be best if both players get recoiled/slowbounced at the same time (the degree of which could potentially be based on their respective DP). The situation I think is most common is where one player starts a swing just as the other player's swing is landing, or where one player is trying to come out of a block into a swing while the other player is trying to combo.

 

Right now, I'm somewhat against the idea of being able to do a stronger parry by doing an attack fake just as their shot lands... that seems too hard to accurately control in a realistic laggy environment. If we are going to have one parry be stronger than another, I'd like it to be based only on movement.

 

I hope I'm coherent... I really shouldn't write these so late at night.

[JRHockney*]

The random pull thing is because of the new features conflicting with the old ones or something like that (according to razor). It should go away with the next Enhanced.

 

I noticed the free combos thing as well. Something might have to be done about that.

 

A question: What is supposed to happen if two sabers hit each other in mid swing? I personally think it would be best if both players get recoiled/slowbounced at the same time (the degree of which could potentially be based on their respective DP). The situation I think is most common is where one player starts a swing just as the other player's swing is landing, or where one player is trying to come out of a block into a swing while the other player is trying to combo.

 

As far as I know, they just bounce off each other. I'm not sure about having both people slow bounce when it happens because I think it happens more than we might notice and this could potentially slow down the combat too much. There might also be a future move that happens when only the sabers collide.

 

Right now, I'm somewhat against the idea of being able to do a stronger parry by doing an attack fake just as their shot lands... that seems too hard to accurately control in a realistic laggy environment. If we are going to have one parry be stronger than another, I'd like it to be based only on movement.

 

It's actually just a start fake that does that. I was worried that it would be spammed to death, but so far its proven to be very hard to spam and not overused in the combat (so far). I say keep it for now. Remember that you can not use force powers on this parry though.

[razorace]

I noticed the free combos thing as well. Something might have to be done about that.

You'll have to show me the next time we're on the server. I imagine that this isn't really a free combo but just the way the system normally works. If you attempt to attack from the same direction after an impact, your player returns the the start position and will then start the attack again if you continue to move in that direction. This isn't a combo and is not an exploit.

 

As far as I know, they just bounce off each other. I'm not sure about having both people slow bounce when it happens because I think it happens more than we might notice and this could potentially slow down the combat too much. There might also be a future move that happens when only the sabers collide.

Yeah, they just bounce. It would totally slow the combat down if both players slow bounced. Plus, it would totally feel random like the mishaps used to.

 

It's actually just a start fake that does that. I was worried that it would be spammed to death, but so far its proven to be very hard to spam and not overused in the combat (so far). I say keep it for now. Remember that you can not use force powers on this parry though.

Yeah, it is pretty hard to do. Even with no lag, it takes some work to do. Personally I normally just do the movement parries because they are much more natural. Also, please note that this does cause a heavy slow bounce, which is affected by force powers.