Gold leader Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Now that you mention hell... As some of you might know, the dutch crown prince is engaged to the daughter of an Argentinian ex-minister (in the cabinet-Videla). The royal family now is Protestant, and his fiancee is Catholic. One of the issues of the upcoming marriage: Is she to become Protestant? Yesterday I read in the paper a letter from a Catholic priest. He wrote that someone who leaves the Catholic Church is automatically excommunicated and that this is a cardinal sin. I suppose that committing a cardinal sin means (for the Catholic Church) that it's impossible to go to heaven. But what if one leaves the Catholic church and still is a good Christian? You cannot go to heaven? Or is it unthinkable that you can be a good Christian when you leave the Catholic Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 If you leave the Catholic Church and become a Protestant knowing full well that the Catholic Church is the one, true church, then you are royally screwed. If you convert because you honestly believe the Catholic Church is wrong, then that is, of course, another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Also from the Catholic point of view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 That IS the Catholic point of view... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold leader Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 You said "another matter". But what kind of matter is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Well, then it's up to God. But there would be no pumishment just for not being a Catholic, if that's what you mean. Maybe some time in Purgatory for ignorance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ike Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 the baptisms of John were symbolic. Baptism of water with the words "i baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is not only a symbol of our faith but a spiritual washing. We are "born again of water and the Holy Spirit." Our sins are not covered up with a white cloth. We are not a dung heap covered with snow. In baptism, Original Sin (which we inherit from Adam and Eve) is washed away, which allows us to enter heaven, and, in the case of non-infant baptism, any Actual Sins (sins we commit) are washed away. Sins are also washed away in the sacrament of Penance (Reconciliation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 And venial sins can also be washed away by receiving the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest garyah99 Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 But you still have the gift of free will. You can take communion, get baptised, stand on the street corner handing out tract and sing hymns til you're blue in the face, but if, in your heart, you deliberately choose to turn your back on God, and follow the ways of the world, you've got problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Conor Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 Of course, because (and I think all denominations agree with this) we are saved by grace, not faith or works. If we accept God's grace for us we will have faith and we will do good works. To commit a mortal sin is to reject God's grace and risk Hell, for what is Hell but the place for those who reject God? Lucky for us God is merciful, as He is always offering us His grace no matter how much we fall away from Him. Interesting point, the Catholics believe good works and faith are not possible without the grace of God. So we believe that if for some reason God withdrew the offer of His grace, humans wouldn't even be able (or probably even want to) do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I thought the Bible taught that no matter what you did in life, God was the one that accepted you in his kingdom? I dont think ANYONE besides GOd should be able to say "YOur going to hell" becasue then they are saying they know what is in a persons heart, and have the ablitiy to judge them. I avoid sin, to show my thanks to God for what he does for me. And i repent to God for my sins everyday, and ask for forgivness. I dont need a witness ot see that i repeneted, God is my witness ,and all my faith belongs to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Tycho Posted April 4, 2001 Share Posted April 4, 2001 I'm with you with that, K_K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 But we aren't judging anyone, we are just repeating what God said through the Bible. We are making assumptions about what is in the heart just for the sake of conversation. I hope you're not suggesting that everyone goes to Heaven no matter what they do, because it will take me about 5 nanoseconds to shoot that one down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ike Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 KK, then you make the false assumption that sin is a private matter, and that what hurts one member of the body does not hurt the others. Recall what Paul said on the subject of being different members, but one body. Sin is a public matter, so what hurts you, hurts the rest of teh faithful, so it is necessary to confess your sins to a leader of the faithful, i.e. a priest, who has God given authority to absolve sins. Also, if you read Acts, you will see that the faithful confessed their sins to others. Nowhere does it say "confess directly to God". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 Sin comes from the heart. Not from the hand, or eye, or tounge. If you have to publicly confess, you are saying that whoever listens can forgive you, and that is not true. God is the great Forgiver. But if i sin agasint my neighber, then i confess to them, and not to a crowd, that has no knowledge. a priest, who has God given authority to absolve sins. um... where does it say they have power greater then or equal to God? No man can Judge a Mans heart. And I directly confess to God, becasue he knows my heart. no one else does. or can becaue if they think they do, they are putting themselves on level with GOd. i live a Chistain life praiseing God grace and FOrgivness even tho I sin, and constanly sin against him. For NO one has greater authority on earth the God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ike Posted April 5, 2001 Share Posted April 5, 2001 noone has greater authority, but there are those with God given authority. Did not Jesus give Peter the Keys to the kingdom of heaven? "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..." Sin does start in the heart, but is brought to fruition through the hand, eye, tongue, etc. Does not the Lord's prayer say "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."? Again, what hurts one member of the body affects the other members. It is an act of humility to admit to one's sins. If you "confess to God", why even bother itemizing your sins? He knows our hearts, so he knows what our sins are. Where is the difficulty in that? God wants us to humble ourselves, especially after offending Him and in seeking forgiveness. It takes humility to tell your sins to a priest. The priest then gives you advice on avoiding sin, gives you a penance to perform in reparation for your sins, and based upon your sincerity, will then say the prayer of absolution which then, through the power of God working through the priest, wipes your sins clean. Whom would you think is more sorry? A person who does something wrong, then thinks about it and, in his mind, is sorry for it but says nothing to noone. OR, a person who does something wrong, thinks about it and is sorry, but also goes to the person he has offended, or to a VALID REPRESENTATIVE of that person and makes a formal apology for the specific action he has done? The first person is sorry, yes, and that is good. But the second person is showing real sorrow and is already making reparation for his sin. Reparation for sin is necessary. Jesus did make reparation for us on the cross and paid the eternal debt of Adam's sin, but we are still all responsible for our own sins and must make reparation for them. Imagine our sins as nails being pounded into a board. When we go to confession, the nails get taken out of the board, but there is still a hole in the board. We must fill the hole in the board with reparation, either in this life or in the afterlife, which is the purpose of Purgatory, which is a whole new discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tierce Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Lets see i took the liberty of skipping the 2nd and 3rd page so if this has already been said..forgive me. I am er..catholic, but i prefer christian. I believe that if ur a good person then u have a ticket to heaven. I know it sounds insane, but i couldn't see a loving God condemning many to hell becuase they didn't go to Church. ------------------ Boo!..admit it i scared the living sh*t out of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 I jsut am saddened is that all these Churches are Christians, but yet do things diferantly. No one is better then someone else... let God be the Judge of the faithful, and stop pointing fingers, and who is wrong and who is right. It what is in our hearts taht saves us, and not what we do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Don't forget the parable of the sheep and the goats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zoom Rabbit Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Mystics have church in the head. Is that why it's called a 'temple?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Dont tell me that you have to actaulyl do works to get to heaven... becasue i can show several passages that prove you dont need ot do any type of "works" to get into heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ike Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 KK, we went over this already. YOu can't just say you believe and then sit on your ass and not do anything and expect to get to heaven. Good words are *required* as a proof of your belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyan Farlander Posted April 7, 2001 Share Posted April 7, 2001 Originally posted by K_Kinnison: Dont tell me that you have to actaulyl do works to get to heaven... becasue i can show several passages that prove you dont need ot do any type of "works" to get into heaven Remember the sheep and goats! And remember St. Paul - "Faith without works is dead." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K_Kinnison Posted April 8, 2001 Share Posted April 8, 2001 grrrr.. fine then.. *pulls out bible* First Question is "What do good works paly in our salvation" Romans 3:28 we maintain that a man is jsutified (declared "not guilty") by faith apart from observing the law Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from your selves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast Romans 9:30 The Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Isreal, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Becasue they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from christ; you have fallen away from grace. and if you read the italicied parts you will know what happens if someone tries to earn salvation on thier own, by relying on good works. How do we do good works? Romans 8:7 The <u>sinful mind</u> is hostile to God It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Galatians 5:17 The <u>sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirt</u>, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each otehr, so that you do not do what you want Romans 7:18-19 I know taht nothing good lives in me, that us, in <u>my sinful nature</u>. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what i do is not the good i want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this i keep on doing do we ahve the pwoer to do our own Good works? nope Why? becasue of our sinful nature Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship in you, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do. Philippians 2:13 ...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose 2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound in you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men It teaches us to say "no to ungodliness and worldly pasions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age Why are we able to do good works? Because God enabled us We say taht God gets credit for the forgiveness of sin, we said that HE gets the credit for our faith. Would you have to say the same thing about our good works? just like how an apple tree produces apples, a chistain full of faith, will produce the fruit of the LORD in good works. he sanctifies us, He leads a beliver to hate sin and be eager to live a life filled with good works. Ike, i can very easily "sit on my ass" and do noting and earn salvation, but i dont want to. Cuase and effect we are ENABLED to do good works thru faith. And i dont need to prove my belief to ANYONE. God allready knows. But others see my faith in the blessings i recive, and the Good works i do. Keyan, tell me where in the bible (book chapter verse(s)) this story is, and i might explain it better. If you have no faith, you cannot do good works. Cuase and effect aqgain. might raed the paragraph above. If I dont do works, I have no faith, and I will die both in the spirit and in the body. But since i KNOW i am in constant battle with sin, the holy spirit is with me, and GOd has a place set aside for me in heaven for when I enter his kingdom. [This message has been edited by K_Kinnison (edited April 07, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycho Tycho Posted April 8, 2001 Share Posted April 8, 2001 Wow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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