Bad government!

[Admiral Zaarin]

I usually stay out of these threads, but I just have to say this.

 

WHAT?!

 

Fine, maybe there are a lot of bad things about the Chinese government, and I don't like them either, but what you're talking about is plain crazy. Genocide. Killing over a billion innocent civilians. Think about this: do you have control over the American government? Do you decide who your country is at war with? I don't think so. It's the same situation in China. Even if the Chinese government is how you describe it (and to be honest, I don't know much about it), your average Chinese citizen probably doesn't even care. Just remember that their government makes the policies, not the 1.2 billion innocent people sitting in their homes, watching television, talking to their friends, living their lives.

[Innror]

Nute, i don't think you as an american should bring up the human rights issue, you have some problems there yourself, being probably the only western country to allow the death penalty. Sure, China has huge human rights issues, but that hasn't stopped the US from having good relations with other countries like them before, for instance in central and south america, not to mention Africa. Human rights hasn't exactly been the main paradigm in american foreign policy.

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

Waitaminute! Before we crucify the space frog...

 

Are we sure that he's spouting his actual political views...or is he just trying to get a reaction from everyone? Remember: this is Nute we're talking about. I doubt that anyone who isn't already in prison would cause that much destruction and loss life if their finger were actually on the button.

 

Fondas, I'm afraid that my country is very much lost in its own arrogance on this one. We have completely glossed over the fact that the Chinese lost their pilot in the incident, and that the plane was in disputed airspace (according Chinese views, anyway.) When I see the uncompromising intolerant anger in their eyes over China's expecting of an apology, I shudder. What hideous monsters we have become, that we can't even bend our pride far enough to acknowledge their loss in this? Tonight, the chances of war between the US and China are 25%.

 

China suffers from a self image problem. We need to understand this, and give them that extra quarter--respect costs us nothing! I, too, have personal issues with China's history in Tibet and Tiananmen Square (just to spout a couple of quick examples) but we are talking about the interaction of enormous, faceless nations...and in that context, individuals can only get lost in the equation.

 

America: grow up! If you want to be world leaders, you had better start acting like it!

 

*Vive la resistance! End transmission*

[Gold leader]

The foreign affairs test! Are you good at foreign affairs? Test your knowledge of the world here! It's free!

 

China is a threat to our world because:

A) They have a nuclear bomb or two

B) They aren't a threat at all since their civilation has yet to discover the wheel

C) Nobody can live on only rice

 

Communism sucks because

A) It's communism

B) My favourite color is blue, not red

C) Communist nations produce ugly tanks

 

American spy planes have the right to crash into Chinese fighters because

A) They came from the right

B) Chinese technology is inferior

C) They don't have to ask them permission for perfoming a crash test

 

American diplomats have the right to visit the Ep-3 on Chinese soil whenever they want because

A) All your base are belong to us

B) The plane, boss, the plane!

C) George W. Bush says so

 

USA and China will soon declare war on eachother because

A) Nobody messes with the USA

B) Nobody messes with China

C) 10 Megaton solves the problem much faster than diplomacy

 

 

All A's? You've failed!

All B's? You've failed too!

All C's? Guessed right, you've also failed!

A's, B's and C's mixed? You mean you've really thought about those questions?

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

Rant addendum:

 

Also, our 'understanding' of the Japanese fishing boat shows just how little we pay attention to the news, or care.

 

Yes, the boat was in our waters! No, it wasn't fishing! It was full of icthyology students, on a field trip...and the Japanese being close friends of our nation, it had every reason to feel as safe in American waters as an american boat would have been.

 

The boat was capsized because there were US civilians on a tour of the submarine at the time, and the captain wasn't told of the boat's proximity when he ordered the sub to surface. It was a tragic accident, which no one denies...but to insinuate that it was somehow 'out of its waters' is SHEER AMERICAN STUPIDITY!!! My point in bringing the incident up is that the Japanese people are currently sensitive toward American subs, and we surfaced one in one of their harbors unannounced a couple of days ago.

 

Whether they be friends, trading partners or the Red Devil left on Earth, we had better stop insulting the Asian nations.

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

Gold Leader: as a matter of fact, you can live on just rice. Rice is the only food for which this is true.

[edlib]

Originally posted by Zoom Rabbit:

Gold Leader: as a matter of fact, you can live on just rice. Rice is the only food for which this is true.

 

Yes, but after a few years of that you would most likely wish you were dead.

 

------------------

"That's the last time I trust the strangest people on Earth!" - Homer

[Gold leader]

Or a pizza for a change.

[Nute Gunray]

Whoa. Back up a minute there Innror. The US doesn't have a lousy human rights policy because we execute murders and terrorists. They are SUPPOSED to die because they forfeited their right to live when they took it from someone else. China on the other hand doesn't even have a REASON when they kill someone, which has happened a few times while I've typed this post. The murder of baby girls simple because they're baby girls or the imprisionment of a guy because he's a member of Falun Gong or because he wants to do something the State didn't allow him to puts them way lower than the US can ever go. Plus we're the good guys. we can do whatever we want and get away with it (remember, the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo weren't war crimes because we were the good guys). Plus, the US doesn't have diplomatic relations with most of Africa and South America. We have fewer relations than are members of the UN, which is an even smaller number than the amount of nations they sell Coke in.

If it was almost ANY country (ANY) other than China, this would already be over. China thinks they are the #1 country in the world, which is obviously not the case. If we were to apologize to them (which will never happen. The US doesn't apologize to ANYONE for anything ever. Same reason we don't dip our flag at the olympics, same reason our ships get right of way coming into anyone's port unless a head of state or monarch is in our way then we have to move), China is arrogant enough to run around proclaiming this huge victory against the weak Americans. Plus we didn't do anything. The Chinese fighter it ours

[Admiral Odin]

Fondas your comment about watching a war on CNN, I find offensive. Because I would mind to see if China was attacked, and I wouldn't care if the civies got in the way (although it would be tragic). You said you have your opions because of Nuclear attack and the such. I have my understanding of war by knowledge seeing the effects it left upon my family members and the terror that I felt when I was little and thought that my father could be sent over to the middle east and I would never see him agian. Then the bomb scares, and the armed guards at the gates to base housing during the alerts.

 

I am with Nute on this one. China is in the wrong, we offered to help with the search but they ignored our offer. They keep american citizens hostage which I consider an act of war. I would go there and fight if my country would need me to. You say we stick our noses were they shouldn't go, well what do the people of Kosovo or Bosnia. If we didn't they would have been exterminated. We do not look for enemies during the Cold war Russia was enemy #1, China, Nother Korea, Cuba are also enemies because they are communist. We do not look for enemies.

 

About the sub accident, that is what it was an accident, it was tragic and everybody reconized that and the commander that was responsible apologized.

 

Now on to my opion of the Asian people. I hate China because they are enemies of the US, I don't like Japanesse for what they did to American soldiers during the second world war, the Vietnamese for their cowardence and attacking US soldiers when we were trying to help them. Korea I don't have an opion about. I am not racist I don't hate asians just the countries yes and that is it.

 

I love the United States, I would happily give my life in service to this country, and I feel that any one that doesn't american that doesn't like our goverment should leave right now and see how it is to have no freedoms. It is hard to put in words the seeting anger I feel when I hear people that don't even live in America critize us for the way we behave especially when they don't know what they are talking about. I understand critizm but to say things that are just not true upset me to no ends.

 

I'm sure most who have posted here have jokenling said the US should crush China but I wasn't.I stick by what I said, and I am open to a debate over why I believe I am right.

 

------------------

"Dulce bellum inexpertis."

(Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb

[Admiral Zaarin]

I hate all governments. Period.

[Psycho Tycho]

Even the U.S?!

 

You shmell.

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

And the XWA Pigharmonic Boys Choir squeals beautifully...

 

Are there no liberal Americans besides me who post on this forum? Am I the only one with the huevos to stand up for our point of view in these 'W' times?

 

Rosie, I am coming to Canada now. The United States can do without me.

 

------------------

'What's up is clearly defined as the opposite of what is down, in this case being the strongest source of local gravity...failing that, in space, what's up is opposite the direction of accelerative G-force--or what I'm targeting with these laser cannon. Die, b*tch!'

 

--Official forum space terrorist

[Admiral Zaarin]

IMHO, all current governments, whoever they are, are good for propaganda, and precious little else.

[Psycho Tycho]

Bye Zoom.

[Nute Gunray]

If we went to war with China and they pulled up the draft because of this I would puss out and run for Canada. However, if China so much as TOUCHES the US soil in any way be it airstrikes on Okinawa, attempted invasion of Alaska, or nuclear strike on the US, they better start praying to Mao or whatever they do because I'M COMING FOR THEM.

[edlib]

OK Zoom, here's how I feel: I'm apolitical, so I feel both sides are in the wrong on this one. It's not worth us going to war over unless they torture or kill the flight crew. Then action should be taken, but NOT on the scale that some have been recommending on this board. I have nothing agaist the Chinese, or even communism for that matter. The plane and the "Secrets" it holds are lost to us now, we should just accept that and get on with things. Just part of the cost of playing this game. As long as the crew comes back safe and sound I couldn't care less about the rest of it. It's just not worth killing and dying over otherwise.

Just my $.02, Edlib

[Guest Rogue 9]

I definently agree with Nute on this one, there is no reason we should put up with China's crap, they were trying to play chicken with our snooper and it didn't blink, unfortuantely for the Chinese pilot he just wasn't as good at the game as Americans or our Russian Counterparts are, don't expect a Prop driven plane to get out of the way of a supersonic jet, sounds like common sense to me. Americans can get close enough to another fighter to make faces at the pilot. the chinese are still learning this game and could use a little pratice.

 

and for people who think we would tolerate this type of spying, we've got Russian Intel Trawler within 12 miles of most of our naval bases thats alot closer than we were to china. the Soviets ran Intel planes into alaska all the time and we ran them out, we never ran into them. the Soviets did the same to us.

 

...and Zoom you probably are one of the only people brave enough to voice your views despite their being contrary to a great many others views so don't leave us, life would get boring

 

[This message has been edited by Rogue 9 (edited April 04, 2001).]

[Guest Rogue 9]

and if they reactivate the Draft I'll be in the Air Force before the ink dries

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

I'm not going anywhere! The 'going to Canada' crack was a joke...

 

Besides, I can't very well scream my left-wing gibberish right in their faces if I'm in the next country, can I?

 

Actually, I really liked what you had to say, Edlib. You're right--both sides are at fault.

[Nute Gunray]

Between 1956 and 1991, there were over 40 THOUSAND encounters between Soviet slow movers and US fighters. There was never a single collision. Conclusion: china's pilots suck.

plus i have yet to determine what the US did wrong. Fly our plane around in international airspace while listening to chinese pop music (that IS what SIGINT is...)

[edlib]

OK, Chinese pilots suck. I'll give you that. But think of it this way:

How would you feel if one of your neighbors was standing in the street or in another yard watching your family with a pair of binoculars? You would want to go out and break his face, right? Even if he wasn't really on your property, it still wouldn't stop you, would it? And if he kept saying "Well I don't see what you're so upset about! Everybody does it! I've been doing it for years with no harm done!" Well you just might have to arrange an "accident" with your car as you pull out, huh? Even if it was resolved peacefully would you expect an apology and a promise to not do it anymore? I suspect you might.

I feel we should be doing whatever it takes to get our boys back! If that means swallowing our national pride and offering a formal apology, then so be it! We will still be the most powerful nation on the planet, PERIOD! I can't see how this would make us weaker. Maybe in the eyes of a few other nations who most likely hate us already anyway! I don't care about our image on the world scene, most of the world don't like us much already! Our allies will still back us up, and our enemies will still hate us. How will escalating this conflict change any of that? Or will a quick, peaceful resolution really make us that weak? I just don't understand the problem here.

Again, just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it! (I can already guess which most of you will do on this one! Oh well... ) Edlib

[Innror]

Well Nute, i think the death penalty is a human rights issue, as do most organisations dealing with human rights if i remember correctly. It's wrong, and it shouldn't take place in a modern country. I know many americans disagree, but hey, i still think it's wrong .

Regarding your relations with countries violating human rights, most relations have been unofficial. Selling weapon, giving financial aid to dictators, stuff like that. You even helped overthrow democratically elected governments in Guatemala in 1954, and in Chile in 1973. However i think this policy has indeed changed a bit since the Cold War, and the US probably have a more human rights based foreign policy now than earlier.

Oh yeah, by the way i do think that the bombing of Dresden was a war crime, even if it was done by the good guys

[Nute Gunray]

If there's any country on the WHOLE PLANET you can't apologize to, it's China. They have a huge superiority complex about that sort of stuff that dates back before there was civilization in Europe. Ever do something and then never be able to live it down? If the US apologized to China, every time we would turn around China would be ripping on us for kowtowing to them.

[Innror]

I agree with you on that one, China do like to feel superior