Admiral Zaarin Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 Originally posted by Nute Gunray: ....rewarded, self-advancement and privacy.... Not for me (well, the privacy part I agree with). My base goal is, and always has been, to enjoy life as much as possible. In my opinion, money has done more than almost anything else in modern society to prevent this on a massive scale. I'm completely opposed to the concept of money, or any kind of exchange system for that matter. IMHO, all it does is create a highly oppressive and potentially dangerous 'class' based society, the rich and the poor, to generalise it greatly. A world in which a person's main objective is to have more than others can never be a good thing.<font size="-2" color="#414141"> [This message has been edited by Admiral Zaarin (edited June 10, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 Though ****. That's how the real world works. Everyone's out to have more stuff than the other guy. So far it's worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue 9 Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 Without Capitalism, the Internet would be full of Educational Crap, and Star Wars would never have been made for lack of a profit motive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Zaarin Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 I fail to see what has worked. There are millions of people who, solely because of money, struggle to even have enough food to stay alive, and many who don't survive. I haven't done much in depth research on this, but I'm practically certain that money has caused more deaths in recent history than any war could hope to. I don't see 'That's how the world works' as a valid argument. It's complete nonsense to say that things can't change. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible. In my opinion, the money-based system doesn't have a single redeeming feature, and hundreds, if not thousands of down sides. It may be motivation, but it's the one of the worst kinds I can imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 it works because all the others failed. A country that didn't exist 250 years ago decided that a free market, capitalistic system was the way to go. THAT country is now the most powerful country the world has ever seen, surpassing nations that have existed for longer than ten times as long as that country. Of course, I'm speaking of the US. OTHER nations saw that their monarchal system or whatever crazy thing they were doing wasn't cutting it, so they switched to Capitalism too over time. Eventually, some people in Europe (I swear, Europe's got to be the screwiest continent ever. no wonder my ancestors left ) decided that Capitalism was bad and they came up with a thing called Communism, which was all peace, love, and lollipops. Around the same time, Socialism was created. The Communists decided that they would use Socialism as a transitional economic form until they could totally sweep away Capitalism. So then the Russia Empire collapse and we get the Soviet Union. Things start working a bit and so people get the mistaken idea that Communism/Socialism=GOOD. So the first five year plans end, but the USSR doesn't make the planned change from Socialism to Communism. Lenin declares his mistakes, and dies shortly thereafter. Stalinism rises which is REALLY messed up **** that I can't begin to understand. It's like Communism, but with someone in charge. More like...a monarchy or something. Years later, China goes Commie. Not long before Mao dies, he is heard to lament the fact that he regrets that CAPITALISM IS THE ONLY SYSTEM THAT WORKS and that he should have chosen that instead, as communism only improved the lives of a handful of peasants a few miles from Beijing. Then in the early 80s, the Soviets figure out they're done. They can't match production, be it agriculturally, militarily, whatever, with the US. They begin to find a way to gracefully get rid of communism... [This message has been edited by Nute Gunray (edited June 11, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Zaarin Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 True. Though, IMO, the primary reason most other systems failed is that, whilst they were radical, they were still constrained by conventional thinking. To eliminate capitalist principles, you have to alter society totally, not just do something along the lines of communism. Anyway, I'm too tired to argue this properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted June 11, 2001 Share Posted June 11, 2001 I once read a paper that went on and on and then summed it up in three sentences: Capitalism works with human nature. The other systems try to change human nature. Capitalism is superior for that reason, as you can't change human nature. i declare the win. i did good for having a cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Zaarin Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 That's probably at least partly true, but I still believe that a lot of what we call human nature is defined by society. I knew I should have thought twice before getting into a debate on capitalism with Nute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zargon Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 Originally posted by Admiral Zaarin: I still believe that a lot of what we call human nature is defined by society. Society just tells what part of our nature is good and what part is bad, and it represses those bad parts....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Zaarin Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 To me, modern society has taken over so much of our lives that it's very difficult to tell what comes from nature, and what comes from what society constantly tries to hammer into us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 Human by nature are violent, look at early man, a predator: Now look at what the so called advances we have made in society, (I'll start with the anciet and work up to modern times) 1.Ancient culture (Egypt, Hitites ect.) overall violent, they would take slaves kill them if it suited them. 2.Roman Empire Very violent, and waring empire. The gladitorial events prove this. 3.The Dark ages/Asia The Dark ages had people very isolated now, how ever poeple still loved to see a good hanging. Same with Asia people made war, killed 4.modern times (I'm skipping ahead because the rest is mostly the same) War continuse to be a dominate feature in Human society, we watch and get entertainment from seeing people get killed on television or the movies (it doesn't matter if in the back of our minds it is fake, because while we are watching it, the difference doesn't really matter) Remember I skipped a lot out because I simple don't feel like typing it. So Human nature is chaos, society keeps it in check by placing limits on that nature. Capitalism allows humans to be more violent, competition can be seen as violence, the other forms of government try to change that nature of humans which is why they fail. Communism believes people will work torwards the common good, however humans want to work towards the better ment of themselves and rule over others. Because of this Communism cannot work as it goes against the natural inclinations of humans (ie control and destroy). When some forms of capitalism are entered in to communism, it is no longer communism truely but a hybrid of both and it will die out or further transgress into full capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 In the far future, after the human race has evolved some more, and the competitive nature has been bred out of us capitalism might disappear and communinism might have a chance to work. Don't hold your breath though. As long as the reptile brain is still controlling our impulses it doesn't stand a chance, no matter how civilized we try to pretend to be. Animal instict wins every time. Law of the jungle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zargon Posted June 12, 2001 Share Posted June 12, 2001 How do you figure that the human race will bred out the one thing that keeps us going and entertained? Competitiveness is what drives us as a race to DO SOMETHING, ever heard of profesional sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 I was really thinking more on the global socio-political scale here, rather than the individual sporting event/ game scale, although I expect that will slowly become less important to us as a species over time. Our competitive nature is a survival instict that served us well when we were a young race fighting for our lives and our future on an ancient, primeval planet, but it's importance to us is diminished with our intelligence. It served it's purpose for us, but we are moving beyond needing it. We will eventually outgrow it totally. But no time soon, don't worry. I'm thinking millenia here, at the very least. As a species we will have to learn to think as one world, rather than a chaotic group of feuding states, or even ambition-driven individuals. Why? Because it's a question of survival as well as the force of civilizaton over time. Global communication technology will serve to speed up this process for us, and if you think about it, it already has! We will have to become less competitive and learn to work together more, or we will find a reason to destroy ourselves forever. If we are to eventually explore and colonize even our local solar system, let alone another system, it will have to be as a unified species. We have already come a ways toward this, but we have a long way to go. I don't expect anything to happen in my lifetime, but I'm sure that eventually it will have to happen. Of course I could be wrong, but none of us will be around to know about it! [This message has been edited by edlib (edited June 12, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jabba The Hunt Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 Theres no use saying all this I estimate in abuot 300 years time we will have the perfect society, where everyones needs are filled and people live for their own selffullilment and the good of mankind. If you look back in history as countries develop it is easier and easier for the poor to get food, Britain now has very few involentary poor people (i define poor as not being able to get food every day) anyway on the basis that this trend continues to happen there will come a point where everyone is at a level where they do their job as something to do and the money doesnt matter as they can get the food and entertainment for almost nothing (later money will disvole and it will be free) so people then end up working to forfill themselves, they do what they most enjoy doing. Greed doesnt come into it as everyone has got what they want and need. ------------------ Official Forum Newbian Your more of a newbian than me, now thats saying something! jabbathehunt@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue 9 Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 Yes Jabba, One day the U.K. population will pay its entire income into a tax fund where it will be divided up and given to people who don't work as well as those who do, this will cause a shortage of money, the British Economy will falter and America will step in and help you revamp your socialist government back into a Working Capitalist System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rogue3 Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 ok communism works only to a point, so does captilism, no one system is better trust me! [This message has been edited by Rogue3 (edited June 13, 2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zargon Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 Humans as a race are far to inherantly flawed to have perfect soceity. A race of imperfects cannot reach perfection....... And edlib, I do still disagree to a point.... Things like dating will always contain competition, and countries will always strive to be able to say, "We are the best, and the rest of ya can just *@%& off!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted June 13, 2001 Share Posted June 13, 2001 Zargon: Of course you do, we aren't there in our evolution yet. But our decendants will look back at us like we look back at neandertals and cro-magnons. There will still always be a legacy of these types of behaviors we carry around with us like a vestigal tail, body hair, or our canine teeth, to remind us of our more savage past. As far as dating: Competition plays such a huge role in the quest for mating rites in our species that we will never rid ourselves of it completely. But I believe that the fighting over territory and use of natural resources (and that's all that our national pride and political posturing is, and has ever been about) will become a thing of the past once we take a few more steps down the evolutionary path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taarkin Posted June 14, 2001 Share Posted June 14, 2001 My word, Jabba's post was actually legible! ------------------ Was I supposed to eat the heads too? 'Cause I took nooo prisioners! Once again, evil is defeated through the use of decorative agricultural technology! Official forum Psychic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Grand_Admiral_Ice Posted June 14, 2001 Share Posted June 14, 2001 You guys still replying to this thread? ------------------ May the Force screw you everything you do except sex or should you get screwed? Stop you're confusing me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted June 14, 2001 Share Posted June 14, 2001 Of course! It's taken a life of it's own now. It's ALIVE!!! IT'S ALLLIVVVEEE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nute Gunray Posted June 14, 2001 Share Posted June 14, 2001 I once invented a perfect society. But I lost the paper I wrote all the stuff down on. I bet it's in the same place as Tesla's notebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edlib Posted June 14, 2001 Share Posted June 14, 2001 I know where that is! It's the same place where all the lost socks from the dryer are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Odin Posted June 16, 2001 Share Posted June 16, 2001 My dryer will dry everything but one sock. ------------------ "Dulce bellum inexpertis." (Sweet is war to those who have never experinced it.) Roman Proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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