Israel/Lebanon situation

[toms]

?? Did you mean Hezzbollah ?? I know a lot of people have called for the destruction of israel, but lebannon isn't a muslim state so its unlikely it would od such a think. Though i couldn't blame it for wanting to in the current situation.

 

Since when are israel meant to be the good guys? That just depends who's side you are on.

 

Either way, it doesn't look like its going to calm down anytime soon. The weird thing is that everyone (USA, Israel, etc..) seems to know that the whole situation was engineered by iran to take the focus off it's nuclear programme... but they are all falling for it anyway.

 

Israel seems to have now started bombing beirut... even the airport and the docks which have no possible connection to Hezzbollah. Also seems that, in addition to bombing the southern suburbs which do have some hezbollah party offices, they've been bombing targets in the eastern suburbs, which are christian areas.

 

Aparently there are currently up to 1/2 a million refugees fleeing southern lebannon, and the UN is warning of a major humanitarian crisis looming.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Since when are israel meant to be the good guys? That just depends who's side you are on.

Quite.

 

Aparently there are currently up to 1/2 a million refugees fleeing southern lebannon, and the UN is warning of a major humanitarian crisis looming.

There's already a major humanitarian crisis. It's called The Middle East.

[Nancy Allen``]

I meant Lebanon. They are calling out for the revolution to begin and to drive out Israel from their land. Now I admit to not being an expert of hpw the land had changed hands, but I see Yassar Arafat calling for children to become suicide bombers and think why should Palestine be entitled to it if they are not going to try and claim it legally. But the current situation with Lebanon has only made more enemies for Israel, and it seems that the world is baying for the genocide of the Jews.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Two Red Crescent Ambulances en-route to assist 30 wounded in the town of Beit Hanoun have been destroyed by Israeli forces. According to Mads Gilbert, a doctor stationed in Gaza, it's not the first time the Red Crescent comes under fire from Israelis, and that the Israelis have killed "many" ambulance crewmen in this and earlier Gaza conflicts.

 

I ask myself again, as I have multiple times since they went into Lebanon: "Who do they think they are?!" Firing at civilians and the medical teams trying to help them?

 

Now I admit to not being an expert of hpw the land had changed hands (...)

Israel was given a bit of it and took 90% of the rest.

(...) but I see Yassar Arafat calling for children to become suicide bombers and think why should Palestine be entitled to it if they are not going to try and claim it legally.

Which they haven't?

 

You think they'd resort to suicide bombing if it was as easy as writing to the UN?

 

http://adamboulton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/bush_blair_unpl.html

 

Dagobahn Eagle,

from a very Palestinian-friendly country (how much does Norway give HAMAS every year again;)?).

[TK-8252]

and it seems that the world is baying for the genocide of the Jews.

 

Sure there's the Iranian types who want to see all Jews die, but then there's also some Israelis who want to kill all the Arabs... so it goes both ways I guess.

[Nancy Allen``]

Two Red Crescent Ambulances en-route to assist 30 wounded in the town of Beit Hanoun have been destroyed by Israeli forces. According to Mads Gilbert, a doctor stationed in Gaza, it's not the first time the Red Crescent comes under fire from Israelis, and that the Israelis have killed "many" ambulance crewmen in this and earlier Gaza conflicts.

 

I ask myself again, as I have multiple times since they went into Lebanon: "Who do they think they are?!" Firing at civilians and the medical teams trying to help them?

 

Nick Berg and Margaret Hassan in Iraq. You point out that this is not the first time it has happened. If this was collateral damage then it makes it no less wrong but if Israel are deliberately targeting medical teams then they are fighting dirty, and in my mind have no right to take such action. But on the other hand in war there are no rules, some of the things in Vietnam is testement to that.

 

Israel was given a bit of it and took 90% of the rest.Which they haven't?

 

Wasn't there any backlash against Israel over it? Why would America be in support of them?

 

You think they'd resort to suicide bombing if it was as easy as writing to the UN?

 

I do. Have they ever? From what I read they do it because they consider it more of an honor to martyr themselves killing Jews than to approach the UN and ask for aid in getting their land back. More honerable and judging by their reactions more enjoyable.

 

 

They are discussing the situation in the Middle East. The worst I heard was Bush saying he felt like ringing up Kofi and saying to call Bashad and make something happen. Is there anything specific I should be looking for? The fact Bush discovered he was being listened in on?

[TK-8252]

But on the other hand in war there are no rules, some of the things in Vietnam is testement to that.

 

This is INCORRECT.

 

Unless you are a TERRORIST, then you feel that there are no rules in war.

 

However, civilized people believe that there need to be rules of engagement. For example, killing a combat medic is considered a war crime. Even Nazi troops respected such a rule and did not fire on medics. It was the Communist forces that chose to target medics.

 

We have things called Geneva Conventions, which set the international laws of warfare. Terrorists do not abide by the Geneva Conventions; they are war criminals, also known as "bad people." It is clear that Israel also has no respect for the Geneva Conventions. They bomb little children playing in a park. They target ambulances. They target mosques. It sounds odd how there is literally no difference in what Israel is doing and what Hezbollah is doing. But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Why would America be in support of them?

Very good question. I considered starting a thread on this not too long ago: Why are the Israelis and the Americans so close allies? It reflects very poorly on the US, for one thing. Though with the USA's past dealings with questionable regimes, it's not like it doesn't make sense:(.

 

But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.

Exactly.

[Char Ell]

We have things called Geneva Conventions, which set the international laws of warfare. Terrorists do not abide by the Geneva Conventions; they are war criminals, also known as "bad people."

I notice how you continue citing the Geneva Conventions in your posts on this thread. I used your link (thank you very much ) to find out about the Geneva Conventions. From what I can tell it's probably the Fourth Geneva Convention that you are referring to since it outlines how the wounded, medical personnel, etc. are to be treated between two conflicting parties that have agreed to abide by the GC. It's pretty long though and after a cursory read I didn't find anything that stood out to me as a GCIV article that Israel had violated. So what part of the GC do you believe Israel has violated?

 

They bomb little children playing in a park. They target ambulances. They target mosques. It sounds odd how there is literally no difference in what Israel is doing and what Hezbollah is doing.

I wasn't aware that Israel is targeting ambulances, mosques, and children playing in a park. Where are you getting this information from?

 

But Israel has killed over 300 people, injured over 1,000, and made 500,000 people into refugees. Hezbollah has no where near the capacity to do as much damage as Israel can.

There is no doubt in my mind that the current conflict in northern Israel and southern Lebanon is very one-sided, in Israel's favor. Israel has a fully trained military with attack aircraft, artillery, tanks, etc. Hezbollah has assault rifles, RPG's, and some really old rockets that they fire off in Israel's direction, praying fervently that Allah will guide the missile to a choice target. Hezbollah should have known that Israel wasn't going to sit idly by on its hands when it attacked Israel's military patrol, killing and capturing Israel's soldiers. Of course neither Hezbollah or the Lebanese military forces (not sure if there is any real difference there) can hang with the Israeli military. Hezbollah would get slaughtered if they fought out in the open. So they resort to the tactic that will give them the greatest chance to survive in this situation, guerrilla warfare. Hezbollah fires off some rockets from a particular area and then hightail it out of there. Israel sends in its attack aircraft to bomb the area the rockets came from. Unfortunately its the innocent bystanders that get the short end of the stick in this scenario and pay with their lives. This is not without precedent in the annals of history. However I readily admit this does not justify Israel's actions.

 

Very good question. I considered starting a thread on this not too long ago: Why are the Israelis and the Americans so close allies? It reflects very poorly on the US, for one thing. Though with the USA's past dealings with questionable regimes, it's not like it doesn't make sense.

America's support of Israel reflects poorly on the U.S. of A.? If you're a Muslim then I can understand this sentiment. If not then would you care to explain why you feel this way? While most countries don't support Israel's current military campaign in southern Lebanon many of these same countries have supported Israel in the recent past. If the majority of the member countries of the U.N. had not supported UN Resolution 181 back in 1947 then Israel would never have come into existence.

[Nancy Allen``]

This is INCORRECT.

 

Unless you are a TERRORIST, then you feel that there are no rules in war.

 

However, civilized people believe that there need to be rules of engagement. For example, killing a combat medic is considered a war crime. Even Nazi troops respected such a rule and did not fire on medics. It was the Communist forces that chose to target medics.

 

I invoke Godwin's Law. I win.

 

Seriously, as a civillised people we respect and honor the Geneva convention, no question. As a civillised people we have to play by the rules. But people such as Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist groups feel they don't have to. That is why Hamas hid in Lebanon in the hopes of escaping Israeli retalliation. But believe me, war is hell and there are no rules to hide behind. If the thought of Israel bombing Lebanon to kill Palestinions horrifies you, as it should, take a look at some of the actions of the Gulf War, or Vietnam. If recent history is more to your liking Abu Gharib are two words that strike terror into every liberal, democrat and really any sane civillised person. This is the kind of thing that happens in war. It shouldn't and the people who commit such atrocities should be cut off from the civillised world, but it does and no amount of crying about the rules is going to change that.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I wasn't aware that Israel is targeting ambulances, mosques, and children playing in a park. Where are you getting this information from?

Worthwhile question, as I didn't post a link:). All I had was a Norwegian article by the public TV channel NRK.

Linkie.

 

I'll work on finding you something you can actually read. Try this for starters (a way down there's a list of crimes committed by Israel).

 

And this. More about ambulances getting hit (scroll down).

 

It's pretty long though and after a cursory read I didn't find anything that stood out to me as a GCIV article that Israel had violated. So what part of the GC do you believe Israel has violated?

Basically all of it:p.

 

Targetting civilians, targetting refugee camps, targetting the Red Crescenet and other medical personell. And that's just the violations of the 4th Convention.

 

America's support of Israel reflects poorly on the U.S. of A.? If you're a Muslim then I can understand this sentiment. If not then would you care to explain why you feel this way?

Because regimes that brutally murder innocents deserve no political support whatsoever. And I do believe I don't have to follow a particular mythology, or dislike the Jews in general, to believe that.

 

Seriously, as a civillised people we respect and honor the Geneva convention, no question. As a civillised people we have to play by the rules. But people such as Al Qaeda, Hamas and other terrorist groups feel they don't have to. That is why Hamas hid in Lebanon in the hopes of escaping Israeli retalliation. But believe me, war is hell and there are no rules to hide behind. If the thought of Israel bombing Lebanon to kill Palestinions horrifies you, as it should, take a look at some of the actions of the Gulf War, or Vietnam. If recent history is more to your liking Abu Gharib are two words that strike terror into every liberal, democrat and really any sane civillised person. This is the kind of thing that happens in war. It shouldn't and the people who commit such atrocities should be cut off from the civillised world, but it does and no amount of crying about the rules is going to change that.

What a wonderful, beautiful, heart-warm, and posimistic attitude. Not only that change and improvement is impossible, but the "two wrongs make a right"-rhetoric claiming that since others do it, it's acceptable.

 

I choose to not subscribe, however.

[Nancy Allen``]

Change and improvement are possible, and we should not accept that two wrongs make a right. That is why we condemn the likes of Private England for the torture of Iraqi prisoners, why people speak out against the terrorist suspects at Guantamano. Some people are beyond change however, they will not accept that their actions only bring condemnation and ruin to themselves. You can find a good example between the civillised world where we have torn down the barriers between sex, race and religion, and places such as Afghanistan when the Taliban ruled, where not following their ways led to death or slavery, and women were lucky to be treated the way we might treat a camel. It is because we are able to recognise and despise the barbaric actions of those who are caught up in the madness of war that makes us better people.

[TK-8252]

Targetting civilians, targetting refugee camps, targetting the Red Crescenet and other medical personell. And that's just the violations of the 4th Convention.

 

Collective punishment is also illegal.

[rccar328]

Collective punishment is also illegal.

So is terrorism, kidnapping, and launching unguided missiles into cities and towns...

[TK-8252]

So is terrorism, kidnapping, and launching unguided missiles into cities and towns...

 

All of which Israel is also guilty of.

[Datheus]

Why exactly do we have to lay blame on a single side? These people have been arguing with each other for thousands of years. And many, many times it has come to blows.

 

As far as I'm concerned, they're both equally guilty. Is the Israeli government targeting EMTs and children? No, of course not. They would lose their support. Is the IDF grunt targeting anyone he feels is a terrorist son of a bitch? You bet.

 

Would some Hezzbolah nutcase come to your house and kick your puppy, dump on your upholstery, and shoot you in the face? If he thought you were the enemy, you'd better believe he would.

 

These people are not plastic figurines without emotion sitting upon a world map. Every last one of these people are fightning tooth and nail for what they believe.

 

And they both believe the blood of the enemy has to be spilt.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Is the Israeli government targeting EMTs and children? No, of course not. They would lose their support.

I would have thought so too, if I didn't know better. Israel has been targetting refugee camps and the likes for a long time. Lots of regimes resort to that when fighting guerillas, and it's a huge mistake as it merely breeds more hatred and resistance.

 

When a squadron of gunship helicopters swoop in and fire on refugee camps, they do it on orders from above.

[TK-8252]

They would lose their support.

 

You'd think they would. But the people in Israel have the idea that they're god's freakin' people and they can do whatever they want. It's the same attitude that Islamic terrorists have.

 

Why so many Americans have always supported Israel I have no clue. It must just be because they'd support any regime with Judeo-Christian ties, rather than secular governments in Europe (with the exception of Britain, because of their cultural connections).

[Dagobahn Eagle]

You'd think they would. But the people in Israel have the idea that they're god's freakin' people and they can do whatever they want. It's the same attitude that Islamic terrorists have.

And the "God Blessed America" neo-cons (not that I'm saying there's as bad as the terrorists). Maybe that's it? God's two chosen people working together for the common good:rolleyes:?

[toms]

The US government supports israel because the israeli/jewish lobby is a powerful force in US politics. Simple as that.

 

The jews got screwed in WW2, but as a result of that the western governments screwed the muslims in anattempt to make up for the atttrocities commited against the jews. Also, as a result of the events in WW2 it became politically incorrect (god, can't beleive i used that phrase!) to criticise or blame the jewish people for anything.. so US politicians, always worried about appearing correct for their voters, were never willing to offend the powerful jewish lobby groups.

 

Unfortunatley for the poor palestinians/muslims, they never had a united front, never could put as many US voters behind their cause, and never could claim that any slight agaist them was a case of anti-semitism.

 

To think that merely because the US supporst israel over palestine makes the israeli cause just is to be ignorant of all the domestic and international politics involved.

 

Its also worth pointing out that the UN decreed decades ago that Israel had illegally seized territory... but the support of the US has always precluded the UN from enforcing those borders on Israel. SO its fair to say that the palesinians DID go to the UN, the USA blocked the UN and THEN the palestinians resorted to suicide bomings and other such tactics.

 

To claim that anyone would rather resort to suicide bombing than a reasonable alternative is insane. People resort to suicide bombing when all the other alternatives have been exhausted.

And to be fair it works, as if they didn't resort to suicide bombings then the odds are that none of us would have even heard of the middle east, or the fact that millions of palestinians had lost their land.

 

(i'd be really interested to see ANY source that shows that yasser arafat calle dfor child suicide bombers.. as that sounds like rubbish to me. )

 

It seems like Nancy Allen is assuming that Israel is right because the USA supports it, and then trying to make the facts fit that conculsion. In which case its worth remembering that the USA has at one time or another supported the Taliban, Al Quaida and Saddam Hussein...

 

--

 

I don't believe that the israeli troops intentionally target ambulances... but i don't believe they make ny effort to avoid them either. Morally i'm not usre there is much difference.

If u want i can crank out google and search for the videos of israeli tropps shooting unarmed children, breaking suspected millitants arms with rocks, and shooting unarmed peace protestors.

Suffice to say that the israeli army isn't that bothered about collateral damage.

 

Is it even collateral damage when 100 civilians die to kill 2 militants??? Is that an acceptable ratio?

 

--

 

PS/ The lebonese army and the hezbollah militia are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT organisations. To equat ehte two is like saying that the Irish police force is the same as the IRA.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Norway, Brazil, the Vatican, the EU as a whole, Russia, the UN, and many other nations all condemn the Israeli actions. The Norwegian SV (Socialist Left) party is debating a Norwegian boycott of all Israeli goods.

 

As for the USA: Look at this list of sanctions against Israel and note which country vetoes nearly all of them.

[Nancy Allen``]

And the "God Blessed America" neo-cons (not that I'm saying there's as bad as the terrorists). Maybe that's it? God's two chosen people working together for the common good:rolleyes:?

 

So God is a terrorist now?

 

The jews got screwed in WW2, but as a result of that the western governments screwed the muslims in anattempt to make up for the atttrocities commited against the jews. Also, as a result of the events in WW2 it became politically incorrect (god, can't beleive i used that phrase!) to criticise or blame the jewish people for anything.. so US politicians, always worried about appearing correct for their voters, were never willing to offend the powerful jewish lobby groups.

 

Fair enough. But that does not mean they are justified in their actions now. We are sorry that the holocaust happened and have done everything we can to make amends for it, but I do believe with the news I have seen in the past couple of days that Israel is going too far.

 

Its also worth pointing out that the UN decreed decades ago that Israel had illegally seized territory... but the support of the US has always precluded the UN from enforcing those borders on Israel. SO its fair to say that the palesinians DID go to the UN, the USA blocked the UN and THEN the palestinians resorted to suicide bomings and other such tactics.

 

Can you provide a link of the Palestinions approaching the UN and America not allowing them to? It's well known they ignored them in going to war with Iraq so it'll be interesting to see what else they had defied the UN on.

 

To claim that anyone would rather resort to suicide bombing than a reasonable alternative is insane.

 

In our eyes, and the eyes of anyone who is sane, it is. To those who follow militant Islam however it is considered an honor to martyr yourself killing your enemies, whether it be Jews, the West or Muslim traitors.

 

And to be fair it works, as if they didn't resort to suicide bombings then the odds are that none of us would have even heard of the middle east, or the fact that millions of palestinians had lost their land.

 

Worked in the negative mostly, as people would see the suicide bombings on civillian, not military or government targets, and see them as terrorists, and whether or not you support Hamas that is exactly how they should be seen.

 

(i'd be really interested to see ANY source that shows that yasser arafat calle dfor child suicide bombers.. as that sounds like rubbish to me. )

 

Here's your f'n source.

 

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=17080

 

It seems like Nancy Allen is assuming that Israel is right because the USA supports it, and then trying to make the facts fit that conculsion. In which case its worth remembering that the USA has at one time or another supported the Taliban, Al Quaida and Saddam Hussein...

 

Well duh, you make it sound as if that wasn't common knowledge. America has a reputation of people turning on them, and if they are not careful Israel could be the next ones to do so. I support the Jews and Israel because of Hitler's attempt at genocide, at the Palestinions trying to kill as many of them as they can, for how they've been mocked and slurred against. Frankly I don't give a crap about history from thousands of years ago, how does that show what Israel is today? But I will be very clear on this, America or the UN, someone should deliver an ultimatum to the Israelis given how it has come to light their deliberate targeting of civillian targets. 72 hours, if that isn't unreasonable, to cease fire, otherwise in my opinion they should nuke or carpet bomb the lot of them. Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. If these are the tactics they are going to employ then they can burn for all I care.

 

I don't believe that the israeli troops intentionally target ambulances... but i don't believe they make ny effort to avoid them either. Morally i'm not usre there is much difference.

If u want i can crank out google and search for the videos of israeli tropps shooting unarmed children, breaking suspected millitants arms with rocks, and shooting unarmed peace protestors.

Suffice to say that the israeli army isn't that bothered about collateral damage.

 

Actually they are deliberately targeting civillians, it was on the news last night. As I said this is the kind of thing that happens in war, and being a realist that is not going to change no matter how many times people cry about the Geneva Convention. With that said, anyone who does commit these atrocities ought to be fried.

 

Is it even collateral damage when 100 civilians die to kill 2 militants??? Is that an acceptable ratio?

 

No it's not. 1 civillian casulty for an entire war is unacceptable, but this goes beyond collateral damage and is closer to exactly what the Palestinions have been doing, what the suicide bombers in London and the hijackers in New York and Washington have done.

[TK-8252]

So God is a terrorist now?

 

Every religion throughout history, including those thriving today, paints god as probably the worst man that ever existed. If god was a current world leader he would have been put on trial for crimes against humanity. He would have killed more innocent people than Stalin, Hilter, and all the horrible kings and warlords had killed COMBINED.

 

Just think of it. He didn't like what people were doing, so he FLOODED the planet, killing EVERYONE (love that collective punishment)! Innocent people, right down to the last child.

 

God sends little children who are killed to hell because they chose to believe what their parents taught them (not the "right" religion).

 

If god isn't the biggest terrorist ever, I don't know who is.

 

Of course this is all off-topic. And I don't believe in god anyway.

[Nancy Allen``]

Why do they follow him then if he is that bad? For that matter, why did he send his son to die for our sins if he is half as evil as you paint him?

[TK-8252]

Why do they follow him then if he is that bad?

 

Ignorance, superstition, indoctrination, fear, etc. It's a separate topic though.

 

For that matter, why did he send his son to die for our sins if he is half as evil as you paint him?

 

Ah, just like a preacher with his hand in your pocketbook would want you to think. That story makes no sense. "Die for our sins?" What good does that do? Does it make our sins less bad? Besides, he was resurrected FFS. What's so bad about dying if you get to go chill with your pops up in heaven being worshipped 24/7.

 

It was a publicity stunt. Like when Hitler or Stalin would pose for a picture or a portrait with children. Same kinda deal. Eh, why would Hitler smile with a group of children if he was so evil. Sure seems like a nice man.

 

Totally off-topic though.