Rev7 Posted October 9, 2007 Share Posted October 9, 2007 watch this... she says it at 5 mins in thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipmonlee Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Having said this, you cannot now say that you're not basing your assumption on those planets locations. It is precisely what you did here. I was basing my assumption on the location of the Unknown Regions. Clearly their position was consistent all the way long. Which is why I question the maps as a basis. They are completely inaccurate. Yet you still pointed to the TSL map as your basis for Malachor V being in the unknown regions as stated on the greater map, whereas I look at what is established by comments in the game. Like I said, the TSL map was posted to show author's intention. I'll now focus on posting official maps only because it seems to be causing more confusion than anything. Obviously, because that's where the Sith Empire is. You pointed to the map as the basis for claiming the Sith Empire was nowhere near the unknown regions. Well, it isn't by the map, which is still off by 4000 years, but looking at what's established by what is said in the game, there is no basis for claiming the Sith Empire is not in the unknown regions. Quite the contrary. The Sith empire is not in the Unknown Regions: http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1713/galaxy2ak3.jpg This is the map from the NEC. In an earlier post I quoted: "Coming from their homeworld at the Unknown Regions, the Rakata were the first species to produce a stable hyperdrive (...) By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life in the known galaxy and the Unknown Regions" "Just like the taboo-Mandalorian planet, Malachor V, which belongs to the Malachor system, nearby other worlds that would be instrumental to the destiny of the galaxy, like the homeworld of the Rakata, and the Chiss' ascendancy (...)". The "Unknown Regions" it's referring to is clearly the one shown in the map, which is post K2 and C-Canon. Nowhere it is mentioned that the Unknown Regions were bigger. Now, we know that Korriban and other Sith planets are indeed in the other side of the galaxy. I'll refer to an earlier, official map: http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/8701/factfiles139xb6.jpg That shows Korriban, Thule and Ziost far from the canonical location of the UR, and is C-Canon as well. since we don't know just how large the Sith Empire really was in its time We do, actually. It was a few hundreds of planets, which clearly shows that it can't extend to the Unknown Regions. If it was more extended, the Republic would have noticed their presence. whereas KotOR1 places at opposite sides of the galaxy Because the location has been retconned. Yet on the map you refer to - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg - Onderon is a complete non-factor against a strike from Lehon or a place close to it. It's on the wrong side of the galaxy for that. It's placed pretty well as a defensive position against the worlds of the Sith Empire, however... Perhaps, but that's purely conjeture. The map you seem to prefer places Yavin right on the path between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Not a clever place for Sadow to hide, given that he was hunted by both - it would completely undermine the reasons why he hid there after the Great Hyperspace War, since it would have been a fairly obvious place to look for him I don't see how. The Sith fell into civil war and couldn't afford looking for him, whereas the Republic decided to bombard nearby Sith worlds. It's perfectly consistent, even more when you take into account the fact that he was aiming to rebuild the empire and it would have been impossible for him to do so if he fled that far. Yavin is also placed at that part of the galaxy by the NEC map... Not sure how the Republic missed that one... Because they thought they would eliminate him by cleansing all nearby planets. This goes back to the fact that the Old Sith space was quite explored, and not "unknown", like the true Unknown Regions, which they know absolutely nothing about. I'm afraid not. The planet you refer to, the red one, is Yavin. You have unfortunately chosen a KotOR1 map from a point during the game when the Star Forge system (Lehon/Rakata Prime) has not yet been found. On that map Lehon is just to the left and below the galactic center, almost exactly half-way between Kashyyyk and Korriban. Yeah, my mistake. Point given. However, the NEC graphycally shows the position of the Unknown Regions, and then explicitely mentions Lehon being included into them, is C-Canon and was published after K2. I'm not sure how we can escape that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamqd Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 The Unknown Regions could be broadly defined as areas not connected with the skein of reliable or well-known hyperspace routes spanning the galaxy, did not look to Coruscant as the ultimate center of civilization, or were not under the broad hegemony of the Galactic Republic before the Galactic Civil War—but the full reasons behind this lack of contact remain unknown. The depiction of the Unknown Regions varies from source to source. Some fans would like to limit the term to areas outside the plane of the galactic disk, and this hypothesis is not contradicted by any canon or EU evidence. It is supported by movie canon, which describes a Galactic Empire, and in which the entire galaxy can be surveyed for any lost planet, fugitive General Grievous, or Rebel base. In Vision of the Future, the space known to the Old Republic, Empire, and New Republic is not specifically assigned to any section of the galactic disk, nor are the Unknown Regions. They do appear adjacent on the map, which includes the disk. The territory under the hegemony of the Empire of the Hand, while by no means comprising all of the Unknown Region, seemingly embraces as much as 240 sectors, roughly a quarter of the volume of known space. Although huge, this volume is emptier than the Galactic disk, since the combined total of the Unknown Regions contains no more than one percent of the galaxy's stars (Galaxy Guide 8: Scouts p24; Tales of the Bounty Hunters p301). In contrast, the The Essential Chronology and New Jedi Order series, as well as the associated galactic map, have bulked the Unknown Regions on one side of the Galactic disk, and this seems now to be a geometric projection of sub-volumes above the disk (however, it should be noted that some fans subscribe to a two-dimensional interpretation, in which the Regions actually touch much of the disk). Worlds such as Kamino, lying "beyond the Outer Rim" on the opposite side of the galaxy, in a dwarf satellite galaxy 70,000 light years from the galactic center, might also be considered as lying on the edge of this zone. I think all the maps are misleading as they show, or point to the unknown regions as a pocket of space to the west of the core... when in fact by definition they encompass all less/un-traveled space, in most sources the planets of Zonama Sekot and bastion among others are mentioned with regards to the UR and they are on the opposite side of the Galaxy to Lehon, these systems sit in what is now known as the tingle arm, which borders with the Sith empire. On a side note: The Term Unknown Regions is a point of View, often coined by members of the Galactic Republic, there are obviously thousands of Races who at some point in history have been sentient and possess advanced technology, but had yet to contact the Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I was basing my assumption on the location of the Unknown Regions. Clearly their position was consistent all the way long. Only on maps that are highly questionable. The Sith empire is not in the Unknown Regions: http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1713/galaxy2ak3.jpg This is the map from the NEC. In an earlier post I quoted: "Coming from their homeworld at the Unknown Regions, the Rakata were the first species to produce a stable hyperdrive (...) By transporting these slave species to new worlds, the Rakata were believed to have inadvertently seeded swaths of the galaxy with sentient life in the known galaxy and the Unknown Regions" "Just like the taboo-Mandalorian planet, Malachor V, which belongs to the Malachor system, nearby other worlds that would be instrumental to the destiny of the galaxy, like the homeworld of the Rakata, and the Chiss' ascendancy (...)". The "Unknown Regions" it's referring to is clearly the one shown in the map, which is post K2 and C-Canon. Nowhere it is mentioned that the Unknown Regions were bigger. Now, we know that Korriban and other Sith planets are indeed in the other side of the galaxy. I'll refer to an earlier, official map: http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/8701/factfiles139xb6.jpg That shows Korriban, Thule and Ziost far from the canonical location of the UR, and is C-Canon as well. Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." From the defining source on Malachor V, which I would presume to speak to the author's intentions... We do, actually. It was a few hundreds of planets, which clearly shows that it can't extend to the Unknown Regions. If it was more extended, the Republic would have noticed their presence. In that case I'm going to argue that the unknown regions area that you define must have been noticed by the Republic long before, since it's a LOT closer to the core of the Republic than the Sith worlds on this map - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg Since Malachor and other worlds were clearly not discovered by Republic, they therefore cannot be in this unknown region that you refer to. Because the location has been retconned. Or merely contradicted each other due to inconsistency. Perhaps, but that's purely conjeture. Actually, it's well established in TSL by the quotes I posted, which I also think speaks to the author's intentions, seeing as how they are in the game. What is purely conjecture here, however, is the idea of an entirely new order of ancient Sith. I don't see how. The Sith fell into civil war and couldn't afford looking for him, whereas the Republic decided to bombard nearby Sith worlds. It's perfectly consistent, even more when you take into account the fact that he was aiming to rebuild the empire and it would have been impossible for him to do so if he fled that far. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Naga_Sadow "Naga Sadow, with his lone ship, retreated to the remote moon of Yavin 4, fourth moon of Yavin Prime. It was here that he conducted Sith alchemic experiments on his Massassi warriors, causing them to mutate from red-skinned Humanoids into fearsome, savage, hunchbacked predators. Despite these abuses, his Massassi slaves treated him like a god, building huge temples to honor their Sith Lord. Naga Sadow had hopes of reconstructing a new base to form a new Sith Empire, but this was never realized." "Sadow encased himself in a suspended animation chamber, beneath the focusing chamber of a primary temple, where he remained in a coma-like trance for centuries, waiting for someone to call upon his power and continue the history of the Sith. He remained in suspended animation until 4,400 BBY, when a dark-hearted Jedi named Freedon Nadd arrived on Yavin 4, awaking the Dark Lord. Sadow taught him in the ways of the Sith, and Nadd became a force to be reckoned with. After his training, for a reason unknown at this point, Naga Sadow was killed by Freedon Nadd, which likely brought the Sith race to true extinction." Because they thought they would eliminate him by cleansing all nearby planets. This goes back to the fact that the Old Sith space was quite explored, and not "unknown", like the true Unknown Regions, which they know absolutely nothing about. 1. This argument appears to me to be in utter conflict with your point that the Sith Empire would have been discovered by the Republic, if it had more than a few hundred planets. The unknown regions - according to your source - is much, MUCH closer to the Republic than the Sith Empire appears to be, so by that logic another Sith empire would have been discovered that much sooner and therefore cleansed by the Republic. 2. If they were looking for Naga Sadow on all nearby planets, then - according to your source - Yavin IV would have been one of the first where they should have looked for him, since its very close to the Sith Empire on the map - http://www.xs4all.nl/~wrvh/galaxymap/galaxymap_p1.jpg - and also straight on the path between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Yeah, my mistake. Point given. However, the NEC graphycally shows the position of the Unknown Regions, and then explicitely mentions Lehon being included into them, is C-Canon and was published after K2. I'm not sure how we can escape that. 1. The maps are highly questionable as sources, since they conflict. 2. The map is still off by 4000 years with regards to the KotOR era. 3. A different Sith Empire than that of Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh has yet to be established. 4. TSL (Kreia) says that Malachor V and Korriban are on the fringes of the Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait. I still don't see how your quote from the NEC contradicts this in any way, unless you see the Unknown Region as a specific area of space that is carved in stone and unalterable (even after it becomes known...), whereas I see it the way adamqd does... On a side note: The Term Unknown Regions is a point of View, often coined by members of the Galactic Republic, there are obviously thousands of Races who at some point in history have been sentient and possess advanced technology, but had yet to contact the Republic. QFE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jvstice Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Exactly! The term "unknown" begs the question, unknown to whom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Generally the Republic or the people who inhabit the "known-space". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noizer Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 silentscope001. this is simply the best idea i heard for a game in a verry long time. good thinking. just signed myself in to this forum to say this. hope they do something with this excellent piece of thinking. gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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