Moral Kombat... this is bad, really bad...

[TiE23]

Wow, this thread is just one big wall of text... scary, since when do people have such large opinions?

[Spider AL]

People with large genitals have large opinions, Tie.

[Mace MacLeod]

Okay, just say the vid. Gotta scream bullsh*t on a few points:

 

1) The 9/11 bombers didn't learn to fly on flight simulators. Flying airliners into specific buildings requires much more skill and training than can be acquired through flight sims.

 

2) Look up the word "lynching". See how often it happened in the good ol' USA. Pick up an American newspaper or read transcripts of Presidential statements. Violence in certain convenient circumstances has always been celebrated and continues to be celebrated at the highest levels of American society. This is just yet another transparent attempt to scapegoat video games for the US's inherent problems.

 

Right at the beginning, the makers of that little video tipped their hands: "Violence has been with us since Cain and Abel..." Gee, I wonder where they're coming from ideologically. And the fight against video games is just another chapter in the overall fight that the self-righteous elements of American society have been waging for decades. Ozzy Osbourne and Judas Priest got sued in the 80's, the whole PMRC thing, hell, you could make a good argument for the opening salvo being Elvis only allowed to be filmed from the waist up on his first appearance on the Ed Sullivan Show. It's all part of the same thing, really.

 

It's a certain segment of society who think that they're perfect, that the US would be the ideal shining beacon of everything that is right and proper if it weren't for these nasty Other Elements who drag it down. And it always seems to be something from outside, something weird and alien. Popular culture has always been used as the handy scapegoat for all the problems America can't figure out how to deal with or can't accept are a product of their own society. I mean, the flashes of GTA and Manhunt interspersed with news footage stills of the Columbine shooters are about as blatant as it gets. But stuff like that always conveniently overlooks such basic things as:

 

Video game companies didn't hand these kids guns.

Video game companies didn't leave them unsupervised for days on end without bothering to teach them how to deal positively with the problems and stresses of life.

Video game companies, like the music and movie industries, are a reflection of the society they arise in, not the driving force behind social development.

 

It's just a sad, ineffectual bit of denial from people who refuse to wrap their heads around the fact that violent, bawdy media is a symptom, and the illness is rooted far, far deeper in the culture than media can penetrate.

 

People with large genitals have large opinions

Heh heh...you wish.

[Samuel Dravis]

Self-censorship is crap. But responsibility is not self-censorship. Censorship is restriction per rule. Responsibility is normally somehow connected to thoughtful way of acting.

My only problem with this is that people should be forced to be "responsible" i.e., not do things that are strictly speaking legal but you dislike. If you just don't like it, that's fine with me. You could even tell them to stop, for example, swearing in front of your children. I have no problems with that.

 

And who defines "responsibility"? Hmm, first of all - the dictionary. And then, maybe those who create and those who serve the market? Together that gives .. society?

Those who create the market have already decided that it is acceptable, obviously, because otherwise such media wouldn't even be around. Those who serve the market are simply acting in the interests of those who created it. I doubt that's the exact definition that you wanted though.

 

No, as I've stated so often, I did not suggest such thing. The opposite is the fact, I am against restriction of rights. I do, however, suggest, that people stop being all whiny about their oh so important personal rights for so-and-so, when somebody says it might cause problems in society. I think I am getting old, but I start to wonder why exactly do we need violent or adult entertainment to this extend? Why is "everybody" saying it's the parents problem when their kids are exposed to it "not mine".

Not exactly. I only hold the parents responsible for what they have control over. Random "bad" stuff they might see is hardly under your control.

 

You for instance, you stated that it's not the media's fault that they offer such contents, because "people" want that. So basically you say it's available because YOU want to. And yet you say it's within MY responsibility ALONE when my kids see YOUR stuff? Hm. I think that could be more of a reason why society is "going to pot".

Depends on what you mean by "my" wanting it. If I care about it being available for people who want it, then yes. There's no reason to restrict it. I do buy some violent games (okay, most of them, heh), music that has cuss words, watch movies with explosions etc etc. However, those are hardly outside of your control with respect to your children using them, so I consider my support of such media a non-issue.

 

Oh, I think that sounds like a perfect marketing strategy here. An example: noone likes the oh so frequent raising of oil/gas prices, and yet noone really stops buying gas or driving cars; I wonder why?

Because of a series of incredibly stupid decisions based on ignorance of alternatives and failure of government to look out for the best interests of the people. That's why.

 

However, that's not the case with media...You can pretty much pick and choose what you like there. Right-wing, left-wing, middle-of-chicken, moral zealotry, complete lack of empathy, historical denial, rational analysis, financial perspectives... you can get it all if you really wanted to. The government doesn't need to create anything when it's all available already.

 

Oh, that wasn't my point here. I was trying to say, that regardless of the player and regardless of the actual influence it might have on the gamer, be it an 80 or 10 year old person, one game is "suggesting" violent behaviour and the other one not. That's all.

I'm not sure they even do that. People know it's a game, and games are not real. To say that one "suggests" an action in reality depends on the inability of people to distinguish the two, of which I have seen little evidence.

 

Many "grown up" persons have problems with making a difference between real life and fantasy. And for children it is kind of normal to "mix" reality and fantasy up to a certain level. It has nothing to do with "lax parenting". And it has nothing to do with violent content. Kids just do that.

Oh, I agree with you totally there. When I was much younger I used to pretend my stick was a sword and I was fighting off the bad guys by whacking branches when I lived in the country. However, I don't remember thinking it was a good idea to hit people with the stick. If I ever did, I imagine it was corrected quite quickly by my parents!

 

And I don't expect everyone to suffer, although I wouldn't say, that a less violent content (for instance) would cause suffering? I mean, after all, all we need to do is create another, different market, eh?

Sure. Enough people stop buying violent stuff, there almost certainly will be someone that caters to you eventually. Not guaranteed, but greed can generally be relied on.

 

I don't want help. I don't need help. I don't have a problem with alco -- wait. Forget that.

The difference is a one is a physical addiction, something that literally can't be helped. Media is hardly necessary for survival and you can do without it. I imagine you would find this even easier as you wouldn't want it anyway.

 

When you are a parent, you might get an understanding of what I mean. Putting the media and contents aside, society is sometimes, to put it simple, an ignorant and self-centered asshole when it comes to parents and their children. I sometimes really have to wonder if some people really think that I got a child just to annoy them for this small amount of time when we "share" the supermarket, for instance.

Oh, I know exactly how taking small kids to the market is, trust me. Even more embarrassing is when people say "oh you have such a cute son" - when I was holding my brother. ^_^

 

I agree, sometimes people are just not very understanding. I still don't think they should be forced to be nice, however.

 

That's basically correct, but again, once you're a parent, you will soon learn, that you're not the only influence, and as an example, to introduce the word "****" to a kiddo is very easy, it just has to hear it a couple of times from some random "unresponsible" strangers in public, who has ANY RIGHT TO SAY IT. But to "make it go away" takes a little longer, and as you've stated correctly before, it's the parents task ALONE to do that. And yes, "parroting" is very normal for kids who learn speech, "repetition is learnsome", says the scotsman.

I appreciate what you mean. Yeah, kids learn things and they say them without real knowledge of what they mean. I have noticed with my siblings, however, that when they started to say things that were offensive my parents jumped on it every single time they did. I guess that works, because they don't do it much. I see what you mean in that it makes more work for you to tell them that. I just don't know what to tell you other than that if you want your kids not to say it, you'll just have to tell em not to. I suppose you could get on the case of people who say it to your kids, but you can't really make them stop doing so.

 

And please, do not suggest now, that parents should stay at home with their kids.

I shoulda thought of that one! Though, to be strictly honest, my mom did. And she homeschooled me too. XD

 

I have done drugs, I have participated in crimes, and you know what? Not a single time because of the shooter games, violence, porn and rap I've been exposed to. I mean drugs doesn't mean violence. Crime doesn't mean violence. So what's your point?

Just that. There's little reason to believe there's a causal link between violent media and violent acts, and thus no reason to place restrictions on such media.

 

Hm. Correct me if I am wrong, but you've stated several times in your post (and I agree on that) that "censoring" is not going to help, also and mainly because the problem is not the media, who's offering violent content, but the people, who demand it, or as you've phrased it "Don't treat the symptoms, treat the disease."

 

Without that you now start about how censoring and restricting wouldn't work, because I think we're past that point, HOW?

As far as I can tell, be a good example. Be the paragon of virtue. Maybe your kids will see the light?

 

Seriously, that's about it. There's little else you can do. Like I said, the #1 influence on kids is their parents, so even if you try it probably will have some effect. If it takes, then they'll do it for their kids, etc etc, which increase exponentially like rabbits, and eventually the world will be filled with virtuous kids!

 

But seriously, sooner or later kiddos watch tv on their own, for instance, and in the end it has nothing to do with "not spending enough time" with your kids, when you let them do things on their own, because that's also very normal when kids grow up.

Sure, sure. I realize you can't be too restrictive, especially when they're 15+ or so. Though by that time they should already be able to make value decisions by themselves, which makes them responsible for their actions. I wouldn't hold the parent responsible for something stupid done by a kid when the parent did all that can be expected for the maturity of the kid in question.

 

Uh-oh, looks like someone's holding a parental grudge, and had to watch tv secretly over at his friend's house all the time.. XPPPPP

Hehe, a few times, yah. However, I actually have decided TV really is crap, to the point that I don't own one, nor watch it when there's something else available. Scary!

 

Ah, yes, parents don't know anything. But once you're a parent, you'll know they knew a lot more than you might have been thinking of.

 

Thought I put in another foolish statement that can only come from a parent. It's a conspiracy, y'know.

So I have been told. I'm not old enough to even consider the accuracy of this so-called wisdom though, so I can safely ignore it.

 

 

 

 

Basically, none. Unbasically, for instance, do I know what kind of content is displayed on the screens of a games store while we pass by? Do I know what's next on MTV which is on in the clothing store where I buy clothes? Do I know what kind of maybe non-violent-but-still-inappropriate advertisement there will be on the screens around the next corner? No, I do not know.

And although I do worry about those things, parents like me are still "accused" of "lax" or "incompetent" parenting, and it's expected that I respect everyone's rights and personal freedom, while most people are not even willing to give that back.

For instances like that, I certainly wouldn't hold you responsible for what your kids do. Depending on how old/mature they are, you will already have instilled a moral framework with which they can deal with it. If they're not that old, you might have to do some explaining, but I can't fix that for you.

 

Maybe it's true and I fail at being father, because I do not really have an idea how to deal with this, except maybe, I could like cut down my right to visit public areas and such when I want to, maybe I could stay at home forever, and with that skew the need to get new clothes for my children. All the food I need I could grow in the bathtub, so I won't annoy people at the supermarket. Oh, I really hope I don't touch anyone's rights with this decision..

Technically you could do that, although it would be kinda weird. Only thing I've known of being grown in bathtubs is weed. XD

 

Seriously, however, I don't think such extremes are necessary. The vast majority of people don't commit crimes, they aren't particularly evil blah blah. Interestingly enough, you might even need them to be aware of the bad things in order to make good things meaningful. For example, when your kids complain about bad spinach, tell them to shut up and look at the kids in Africa or something.

 

I would probably still complain about the spinach though.

 

 

Ray, I think we agree on a lot of the things you bring up. My only issue is that I don't think people should be forced to conform to the standard you want your kids to see, which I don't consider as important as being able to say things which some consider objectionable. People should be free to do as they wish so long as it brings no obvious harm to others. That's the only problem I have with restrictions on games and basically any other media.

[BongoBob]

Holy walls of text batman.

 

tl;dr

 

Sam I thought at first glance you said the only thing you've ever grown in bathtubs was weed

[Ray Jones]

I'm not sure they even do that. People know it's a game, and games are not real. To say that one "suggests" an action in reality depends on the inability of people to distinguish the two, of which I have seen little evidence.

"Suggest" might be the wrong wording then.

 

There's little reason to believe there's a causal link between violent media and violent acts, and thus no reason to place restrictions on such media.

There's even less reason to think there's a causal link between non-violent media and violence. That's the idea of my "games comparison" - if you have a game where you have to punch the Ray to get into the porn store and another one where you have to dress him up in pink to get in, one game is cleary suggesting dressing up the gay way gives you porn to no limit, while the other one is not. That doesn't mean people will dress up as the tooth fairy when they gonna buy porn, but the idea is stuck to their heads. Also almost every fictive story and game is somehow related to the real world and contains real world elements. That doesn't prove or maybe indicates anything, but I cannot say for sure what, if I place myself in front of a porn store, holding a pink dress, will happen when I say "I'm Ray and you can't get in" to those who want to get in. Nope, calling the police is no option here. Neither is "use wild Amazon girl with large opinions on Ray". (Although, it's my right that they should've coded it in??)

 

Ray, I think we agree on a lot of the things you bring up. My only issue is that I don't think people should be forced to conform to the standard you want your kids to see, which I don't consider as important as being able to say things which some consider objectionable. People should be free to do as they wish so long as it brings no obvious harm to others. That's the only problem I have with restrictions on games and basically any other media.

I agree, this whole thing goes a lot farther than the question if good games or bad games cause whatever things. We have a problem in people's head and thus society, not with games or "freedom of games".