Why are some people gay?

[Vaelastraz]

Being atheistic is not "normal", just like it's not "normal" to be a starwars fan.

It's just not the social norm.

 

"normal" in a dictionary:

"Conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm; not abnormal"

 

So neither starwars fans nor atheists nor gay people are normal, since their lifestyle is not the social norm.

[Spider AL]

Hmm, how many Atheists are there in the world? Could it be said that Atheism is not normal because they are a minority?

Depends on the country. In the US, we atheists are not "normal". We're abnormally free of delusions, for instance. We're abnormally rational when it comes to the issue of theism.

 

But in my country specifically, we are "normal", because atheism is the norm in the UK. We are the majority at around 66%, according to some estimates. It's normal to be atheistic in the UK.

 

Normality is not a virtue nor a vice, and has nothing to do with "good" or "bad".

[Nancy Allen``]

But this falls under the fallacy of Appeal to Popularity, just because everybody's doing it doesn't make it normal.

[Spider AL]

hahah... Actually "everybody" doing something would indeed make it normal, Nancy.

 

Perhaps you should read through the definitions of logical fallacies a bit more studiously. Appeal to Pop. doesn't apply.

[Nancy Allen``]

An appeal to popularity, as the name suggests, occurs when the popularity of a thought, argument, or object is appealed to as evidence that such is valid or superior to others. A couple of examples:

 

The majority of people in the world is opposed to the war in Iraq

Therefore, the war in Iraq is unjust.

"News 8, where more Michiganders get their news than from any other station."

Most scientists believe evolution is true [see also Appeal to Authority].

It should be apparent why appealing to popularity is fallacious. Simply put, to err is human. To avoid mistakes consistently well one must be exceptional. Also, humans are social creatures, so often someone accepts something just to "fit in." However, fitting in or majority rule is irrelevant to the validity of a logic claim. 1+1=2, no matter how many people are persuaded to believe otherwise.

 

Therefore it applies.

[Spider AL]

Uhhh... No, therefore it DOESN'T apply. Read it again, Nancy.

 

"An appeal to popularity, as the name suggests, occurs when the popularity of a thought, argument, or object is appealed to as evidence that such is valid or superior to others."

 

Nobody has stated that normal behaviour is "more valid" or "more superior" than abnormal behaviour, therefore it does not apply. QED. Accept it.

[Nancy Allen``]

You believe that Atheism is superior, to the point that you believe that people are not entitled to believe in religion.

 

By the way, what is the majority in, say, the Middle East? How does Atheism fare where the law is 'Islam or die'?

[Spider AL]

You believe that Atheism is superior

I believe it to be a rational standpoint, and that rationalism is superior to irrational faith, yes.

 

But since I've also stated that atheism is NOT normal in many countries including the US, what are you accusing me of? An "appeal to UN-popularity"?

 

Once again, your assertion that I've perpetrated a logical fallacy is without basis. Just accept it.

 

to the point that you believe that people are not entitled to believe in religion.

This is flatly false. I have stated many many times that people are entitled to be rational or irrational, theistic or atheistic as they please. And you know it well.

 

Your misrepresentations of other people's positions are totally fallacious and unhelpful, Nancy.

 

By the way, what is the majority in, say, the Middle East? How does Atheism fare where the law is 'Islam or die'?

Why do you ask?

[Nancy Allen``]

Because clearly you cannot say that Atheism is the norm in, say, Saudi Arabia. You cannot go around there saying how superior it is to Islam and how...no, actually, don't let me stop you. Find out for yourself.

[Spider AL]

Atheists are indeed even more seriously persecuted in some Islamic states than they are in the US, Nancy, you're correct on that point... but I still fail to see the relevance of this.

[Nancy Allen``]

The point is you cannot have one other person agree with you and call it rousing support. Just because the majority of people in one area are Atheist doesn't mean it's an accurate depiction, nor does it make it superior to religious belief or warrents Atheists condemning those who believe in religion.

[Spider AL]

I absolutely agree. And since I've never claimed to have "rousing support", never claimed that atheism is superior to theism "because of it's popularity" and since I've never "condemned" any theists, I must ask again: What's the relevance of this?

[Nancy Allen``]

But in my country specifically, we are "normal", because atheism is the norm in the UK. We are the majority at around 66%, according to some estimates. It's normal to be atheistic in the UK.

 

And just looking back.

 

Your misrepresentations of other people's positions are totally fallacious and unhelpful, Nancy.

 

I had a great teacher.

[Spider AL]

Yes, atheism is normal in the UK. What's your point? I never stated that "normal" is "superior".

 

I had a great teacher.

So you admit that you ARE misrepresenting people's positions? Good. Now you should stop doing it.

[Nancy Allen``]

Ha, this reminds me of a scene from Spiderman.

 

"You're lucky I'm such a good sport, no intelligent person would go this far."

"You hear that? Spiderman just admitted he's an idiot! You all heard him!"

 

So, others arn't allowed to misrepresent people's positions? But you are? And don't try and deny it because you do.

[Spider AL]

lol. Nancy, if you could find an example of me misrepresenting someone's position you would have done it by now. You can't and won't find such an example. I do not misrepresent people's positions the way you have.

 

When you have something relevant to say on this issue, I will respond to it. Until then, have a good evening.

[Nancy Allen``]

I seem to remember you doing a big song and dance over Jae's comments on the media showing names on coffins, portraying her as an emotional basketcase. I could dig it up if you like.

 

I'd prefer if you all would not dig up something like that. Thank you. --Jae

[ET Warrior]

I was convinced while I was reading those last several posts that this thread was about atheism, but then I checked and sure enough this is about homosexuality.

 

Back on Topic, please.

[Nancy Allen``]

Why are some people gay? Drawing on all my knowledge and experiance of homosexuality I would say it's a matter of choice. Someone sees something or are introduced to something, it appeals to them and they go for it. Someone is very much in love with a member of the same sex. Someone is far more comfortable with members of the same sex. Those would be the most common examples that spring to mind. That's not to say that there isn't some gay gene or people arn't born gay. I haven't however seen or heard of someone who is gay and doesn't want to be, and because of that I chalk it down to it being choice, or dominently choice.

[Spider AL]

I haven't however seen or heard of someone who is gay and doesn't want to be, and because of that I chalk it down to it being choice, or dominently choice.

Well of course there are many many gay people who don't want to be gay, either because of the social stigma attached to homosexuality, or because of misguided religious concerns.

 

We've all heard of the silly church-sponsored programs that claim to be able to "cure" homosexuals of their evil ways! These programs would never survive if there weren't a steady influx of poor self-loathing homosexual people to fill their coffers with cash.

 

So since you've based your opinion on the nature of homosexuality on an erroneous belief that all homosexuals want to be homosexual, perhaps you should now re-evaluate that opinion.

[Nancy Allen``]

This is based on my knowledge and experiance. I don't portray myself to be some all knowing being, and if you look you will see that I have left the idea open that homosexuality is not a choice.

[Spider AL]

if you look you will see that I have left the idea open that homosexuality is not a choice.

That's not relevant to what I was saying Nancy.

 

You stated that because you had never heard of any homosexuals who didn't want to be gay, you believed homosexuality to be (predominantly) a matter of choice.

 

And now that I have informed you (in post #70) of the obvious fact that there are many homosexual people who wish they were straight, once again, I think it's time you re-evaluated that opinion. Because the whole REASON you had for holding that opinion is now gone.

[Nancy Allen``]

Back on topic please.

 

Some people are gay because it is a matter of choice. Aside from that I'd really need to refer to an expert on homosexuality.

[Spider AL]

The past five posts have ALL been on topic, Nancy.

 

Some people are gay because it is a matter of choice.

This is very unclear. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that homosexuality IS a matter of choice, or are you trying to say that only SOME people make a conscious choice to be homosexual?..

 

Or are you saying that... Well what are you saying?

[Nancy Allen``]

To the best of my knowledge homosexuality is a choice. Not being an expert on it that is how I see it. Some people, as in 'Why are some people gay?', are so because it is a choice. If there's evidence to the contrary I've yet to see it.