Opening the lock at the bone dam (aka: Apostrophe debate)

[Du Man]

LOL. Approaches to Teaching Cervantes' Don Quixote is the title of a book published by the MLA. There is no page number since it is the title of the book.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you were so shallow as to cite the title of a book to support your notion that there is no standard English grammar. First off, Cervantes' is both a familiar name (in the literary world) and ends in es, which is an exception that Oxford allows and probably the MLA.

 

You see, everybody allows for this es case because you can actually read the ess sound as opposed to making it up with just an '.

 

Further reading leads me to believe, to avoid awkwardness, passages should be rewritten to exclude the apostrophe, The Elements of Style section II.1. So the title of this forum would be The Garage of Glottis.

 

Wow, do you even read the sources you cite, because you just offered me on a silver platter yet another source that supports my view (thank you, by the way).

 

Charles's friend

Burns's poems

 

This is the usage of the United States Government Printing Office and of the Oxford University Press...

 

Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is

[Stickywulf]

You see, everybody allows for this es case because you can actually read the ess sound as opposed to making it up with just an '.

Ha, Ha, Ha. How quickly you change your mind.

Let me quote you. 'Again, we're not pronouncing, we are writing, and in my understanding good writing puts clarity before pronouncation.'

Now you agree that the pronunciation can make a difference to the spelling of the word. ROFLMAO.

 

 

This has also been shown in the links previously given. I will not give page numbers, I expect you are capable of using the search function of your computer.

Trask: Second, a name ending in s takes only an apostrophe if the possessive form is not pronounced with an extra s. Hence:

 

Socrates' philosophy

Saint Saens' music

Ulysses' companions

Aristophanes' plays

Same reason: we don't say *Ulysses's companions, and so we don't write the extra s.

Ask Oxford: Also add an apostrophe to a name ending in -es that is pronounced like the word is: 'Moses' mother'.

The Oxford Guide To English Usage: Polysyllables not accented on the last or second last syllable can

take the apostrophe alone, but the form with -'s is equally

acceptable, e.g.

 

Barnabas' or Barnabas's

Nicholas' or Nicholas's

The Elements of Style: Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake. But such forms as Achilles' heel, Moses' laws, Isis' temple are commonly replaced...

The Story of the Apostrophe: In multi-syllabic words ending in a sibilant, particularly in the case of

familiar names, one usually adds only an apostrophe, though there are

exceptions occasioned by stylistic or euphonious needs

wikipedia: If the singular possessive is difficult or awkward to pronounce with an added s sound, do not add an extra s; these exceptions are supported by University of Delaware, The Guardian, Emory University's writing center, and The American Heritage Book of English Usage. Such sources permit possessive singulars like these: Socrates' later suggestion; James's house, or James' house, depending on which pronunciation is intended.

 

I will conclude this post the same as I have done most others. The choice is with the writer and how he intends for the word to be pronounced. Now that you finally accept the pronunciation makes a difference to the spelling then you will have a chance to see my point of view. Personally, I would pronounce the title Glottiz Garage, regardless of the spelling. If it were my choice I would name the forum Glottis' Garage to depict my pronunciation. I can not speak on behalf of the forum owner, depending on his pronunciation, he could spell it differently.

[Du Man]

Ha, Ha, Ha. How quickly you change your mind.

Let me quote you. 'Again, we're not pronouncing, we are writing, and in my understanding good writing puts clarity before pronouncation.'

Now you agree that the pronunciation can make a difference to the spelling of the word. ROFLMAO.

 

I never said such a thing. I was trying to help you understand why AskOxford only lets you add just an ' in cases where the name ends in es, since you kept obsessing over the ess sound. I still insist writing takes precidents over pronunciation since how you pronounce a word is so fluid and momentary compared to how permanent something you write can be. You want your grammatical standards to be consistent if you what to avoid long drawn out debates like this one.

 

Now let's tally up your sources. Oh, and by the way, when you cite sources, you usually have to explain why you are citing them or how they support your argument.

 

Trask: Second, a name ending in s takes only an apostrophe if the possessive form is not pronounced with an extra s. Hence:

 

Socrates' philosophy

Saint Saens' music

Ulysses' companions

Aristophanes' plays

Same reason: we don't say *Ulysses's companions, and so we don't write the extra s.

 

Explain to me why Trask still accepts "James's fiancée" then. You keep passing this case without criticizing it. And did you also read Trask's sentence very carefully? "...if the possessive form is not pronounced with an extra s." The words above have already been declared to be exceptions to this rule, because they are ancient, familiar, and all end with es (except Saint Saens, I guess that n is getting in the way).

 

As far as I'm concerned, Glottis is an unfamiliar, recent proper name that ends in "is" (though how recent is arguable, I'm still waiting on Thrik to tell me what word it's based off of, but if it was based off of a word, it has just recently been used as a proper name in English). And do you still keep ignoring this line "This ['s] rule applies in most cases even with a name ending in s." Not all, not some, but in MOST cases!

 

-1

 

Ask Oxford: Also add an apostrophe to a name ending in -es that is pronounced like the word is: 'Moses' mother'.

 

Does Glottis end in es?

 

-1

 

The Oxford Guide To English Usage: Polysyllables not accented on the last or second last syllable can

take the apostrophe alone, but the form with -'s is equally

acceptable, e.g.

 

Barnabas' or Barnabas's

Nicholas' or Nicholas's

 

Almost, but your bias has come back to haunt you in that same source.

 

Nouns ending in s add 's for the singular possessive, e.g.

 

boss's Hicks's

Burns's St James's Square

Charles's Tess's

Father Christmas's Thomas's

 

Now I won't claim to be great at pronouncing, spelling, or identifying syllables, but I believe Barnabas and Nicholas have three syllables, while Charles, Christmas, and Thomas have two, correct? Doesn't Glottis have two as well? What makes Glottis a special exception from Charles or Thomas?

 

-1

 

The Elements of Style: Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake. But such forms as Achilles' heel, Moses' laws, Isis' temple are commonly replaced...

 

I think they meant "end" instead of in, which is a pretty sad mistake for someone explaining grammatical rules. Though you almost had me there with the -is ending, but is Glottis an ancient name? Well since I never heard of it until I played this game, and until someone proves otherwise, no.

 

-1

 

Oh, and I don't think a technology university would be considered a reliable source for grammatical rules.

 

The Story of the Apostrophe: In multi-syllabic words ending in a sibilant, particularly in the case of

familiar names, one usually adds only an apostrophe, though there are

exceptions occasioned by stylistic or euphonious needs

 

Again, never heard of the name Glottis until I played this game, so again I'll have to say its an unfamiliar name.

 

-1

 

As for multi-syllabic words, is "Thomas" one? How about James?

 

wikipedia: If the singular possessive is difficult or awkward to pronounce with an added s sound, do not add an extra s; these exceptions are supported by University of Delaware, The Guardian, Emory University's writing center, and The American Heritage Book of English Usage. Such sources permit possessive singulars like these: Socrates' later suggestion; James's house, or James' house, depending on which pronunciation is intended.

 

How about you read from the horse's mouth?

 

The possessive in words and names ending in s normally takes an apostrophe followed by a second s (Jones's, James's),

 

Thus there is nothing freakish or new age about Glottis's, but hold on...and don't wet you pants in excitment...

 

but be guided by pronunciation and use the plural apostrophe where it helps: Mephistopheles' rather than Mephistopheles's

 

Pronounciation over writing? First this is a journal, not a literature association or an academic institution, so they're teaching people how to write, not making standards. Though rather than defining for people that you only use the ' and no s for ancient, familiar, polysyllabic names ending in es, they're making people rely on their tongues, which is as I said before not a good way to establish a standard. We measure stuff with measuring sticks, not with our arms or feet.

 

-1

 

One down, two more to go. And don't bother changing your pants...

 

Exceptions: With nouns or proper names where pronunciation would be awkward (especially words ending with an ees sound like Sophocles), you may add only the apostrophe. Either use is acceptable: the bass's fins, Pardes' students, Pardes's students.

 

Does Glottis end with and ess sound? Does the end of Glottis sound like Sophocles? No. And again, this was published (on a website) by a writing center, not a literature association or academic institution, so again, they are teaching people how to write (with their tongues), they are not setting standards.

 

-1

 

Note that although some people use just the apostrophe after singular nouns ending in s (the witness’ testimony, Burns’ poetry), the -’s is generally preferred because it more accurately reflects the modern pronunciation of these forms.

 

-1

 

I will conclude from this post the same as I have done most others. The choice is with the writer and how he intends for the word to be pronounced.

 

You were able to conclude that from 10 sources, the majority of which don't agree with you?

 

I gave you my opinion already, I don't need to hear yours again.

 

Now that you finally accept the pronunciation makes a difference to the spelling then you will have a chance to see my point of view.

 

I may make fun of you, but I will never assume that you accepted an opinion of mine. This is possibly the most insulting thing you can say to me. You have crossed yet another line.

 

Personally, I would pronounce the title Glottiz Garage, regardless of the spelling. If it were my choice I would name the forum Glottis' Garage to depict my pronunciation. I can not speak on behalf of the forum owner, depending on his pronunciation, he could spell it differently.

 

That's your opinion, and if you stay around this forum long enough (which most people don't) maybe you will one day be an administrator and change the title for your own liking.

[Stickywulf]

You have added the word "from" into one of my sentences changing the meaning of the sentence. In case you are not aware, the word "conclude" has more than one meaning. When a word has more than one meaning it is referred to as a homonym. That's minus fifty billion for you on the score tally.

 

Conclude

Definition 1: to bring to an end.

Definition 2: to determine by reasoning; deduce; infer

 

The fact that you have forced your opinion into my sentence undermines your moral. Regardless of what I say, you have already determined in your mind, what you want to believe. You are so insinstant that your thoughts are correct that you will never conclude, under any circumstances, that you are wrong.

 

To show you there is another recognised method of indicating possession for Proper Nouns ending in 's', I give you a passage from a teacher's guide:

 

[Celce-Murcia, M. & Larsen-Freeman, D. The Grammar Book: An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course, Second Edition, 1999, International Thompson Publishing Inc. p. 302]

 

The first [way of signalling possession] is in writing by inflecting regular singular nouns and irregular plural nouns not ending in s with 's :

the baby's crib. the women's room.

or by adding an apostrophe after the s ending of regular plural nouns and singular forms that already end in the sound s .

the boys' trip. Kansas' farmlands.

The apostrophe added to regular plural nouns and singular nouns ending in s does nothing to alter the pronounciation of the word; however,

the edition of the 's to singular and irregular plural nouns gets

realized in speech as /s/ when it occurs after voiceless consonants, /z/

when it follows voiced consonants and vowels, and /ýz/ after sibilants

(i.e., /s/ , /z/, /s/ ),

 

The polite thing for you to do would be to acknowledge that there are different punctuation methods, which vary according to country. You can try spout some crap about the King's English and all, except that in your last post you spelt center [centre] which show's you follow an American standard anyway. The other alternative is to close your eyes, stick your head in the sand and scream, "I am right, I am always right, I will rant all day long until everyone does things the same way as me". God help you.

 

I will again conclude this post the same as I have done most others. The choice is with the writer and how he intends for the word to be pronounced. The writer has the privilege of choosing his own writing style.

[Du Man]

You have added the word "from" into one of my sentences changing the meaning of the sentence. In case you are not aware, the word "conclude" has more than one meaning.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you made your conclusion (that is, your end opinion) FROM the sources you cited, rather than just saying you're ending your post.

When a word has more than one meaning it is referred to as a homonym. That's minus fifty billion for you on the score tally.

 

.....what?

 

Conclude

Definition 1: to bring to an end.

Definition 2: to determine by reasoning; deduce; infer

 

yeah, I thought you meant the 2nd definition, which you can only use if you justified your opinion FROM the sources you mentioned. Are you really trying to justify anything you say?

 

The fact that you have forced your opinion into my sentence undermines your moral.

 

Now you're just BSing. I thought you justified your conclusion FROM the sources you listed. If you were ending your post, why didn't you just say "I'm ending my post" or "In conclusion, ...." See how much clear writing matters? If you wrote it in one of the above ways, then I would have assumed you justified nothing, rather than justifying your opinion from your sources. Wait, why the hell am I arguing with you!

 

Regardless of what I say, you have already determined in your mind, what you want to believe.

 

Like I determined "pronunciation can make a difference to the spelling of the word"? Because I believe you made that one for me.

 

You are so insinstant that your thoughts are correct that you will never conclude, under any circumstances, that you are wrong.

 

No, I'll conclude I'm wrong if you prove Glottis is a familiar, ancient name like Socrates. Thrik mentioned Glottis is based off of a real word, why don't you ask him what that word is?

 

Or, prove why James's verses James' should be optional. According to every source we read together, it should be James's.

 

And if it was optional, why did you push for Glottis' in the first place? I suggested Glottis's because I thought Glottis' violated established standards for grammar. You pushed Glottis' because it's your opinion that it should be spelled that way. I'm pushing a standard, you're pushing an opinion. As I said before, I do not push my opinions on others if I know they are opinions.

 

To show you there is another recognised method of indicating possession for Proper Nouns ending in 's', I give you a passage from a teacher's guide:

 

[Celce-Murcia, M. & Larsen-Freeman, D. The Grammar Book: An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course, Second Edition, 1999, International Thompson Publishing Inc. p. 302]

 

Why thank you for quoting a published source with a page number! But as you criticized my sources for being american, I'd like you to note that your's is an ESL teacher's guide rather than handbook for writing or a guide to writing published by a literary association, for English. You can read my criticisms above for why you could discredit teacher's guides.

 

The first [way of signalling possession] is in writing by adding an apostrophe after the s ending of regular plural nouns and singular forms that already end in the sound s .

 

Kansas' farmlands.

 

May I intercede and say Kansas is a familiar name as opposed to Glottis.

 

The apostrophe added to singular nouns ending in s does nothing to alter the pronounciation of the word;

 

 

however,

the edition of the 's to singular and irregular plural nouns gets

realized in speech as /s/ when it occurs after voiceless consonants, /z/

when it follows voiced consonants and vowels, and /ýz/ after sibilants

(i.e., /s/ , /z/, /s/ ),

 

I'm thoroughly worn out now after going through 6 sources that I found agree with you (on the net though), but two sources which I've appended at the end do agree with me.

 

http://www.emporia.edu/writinglab/punctuation.html

 

http://writingguide.geneseo.edu/faculty/drakeguide.html

 

http://grammar.qdnow.com/2007/01/01/apostrophe-plural-grammar-rules.aspx

 

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/apostrophes1.html

 

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000131.htm

 

http://orvillejenkins.com/words/apostrophe.html

 

And the ones that agree with me.

 

http://www.ithaca.edu/flanagan/GUS/apostrophe.html

 

http://www.liquidsilverbooks.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1776.html

 

So, -10 + 6 - 2 = -6.

 

The polite thing for you to do would be to acknowledge that there are different punctuation methods, which vary according to country.

 

Or vary within a country like England? By the way St. James' was recently used by the football stadium, and I've read in the sources above that the 's has been falling out of favor in order for faster, efficient (and cheaper) writing, where as 's has always been in use, so it is you, friend, who is "new age."

 

You can try spout some crap about the King's English and all, except that in your last post you spelt center [centre] which show's you follow an American standard anyway.

 

Oxford supports the 's case as they do in America (except for a few sources I provided for you). Our spelling my differ, but not our grammatical rules. Again, standards are established by universities and literary associations, not countries.

 

The other alternative is to close your eyes, stick your head in the sand and scream, "I am right, I am always right, I will rant all day long until everyone does things the same way as me". God help you.

 

Considering how many times you have passed specific paragraphs that are counter to your opinion in the sources you have cited, I find this rather funny.

 

The alternative is proving you're right with respectable sources and justifying why I'm wrong, not discrediting me on the basis of nationality.

 

I will again conclude

 

Now let me get this right, you mean "end" not "I will conclude from what I have justified" as you never justify anything, right?

 

this post the same as I have done most others. The choice is with the writer and how he intends for the word to be pronounced. The writer has the privilege of choosing his own writing style.

 

From the sources I just posted, I'm willing to accept your opinion, except for how he intends to pronounce it, for the above sources say this is more of a style thing. The unanimous aggreement I thought I had has dissappeared with the finding of these new sources.

 

However, from every book on literary standards I have read, from every research paper I have written, I will continue to defend that the 's is a clear way to show both possession and singularity, especially for words or names that are not well known.

 

But now, I'll leave it up to the moderator to decide as I do not have unanimous aggreement in the sources we have cited.

[Stickywulf]

I just started playing through the game again and in the game options I have enabled "text and speech".

 

At the part in the petrified forest when Glottis tears out his heart and throws it away, Manny says, "Those spiders have Glottis' heart in their web".

Manny's pronunciation is Glottis's heart but the spelling is Glottis' heart.

 

The game designers chose not to have the s after the apostrophe, which seems strange considering how Manny pronounces it.

[Thrik]

Man, you guys sure know how to have an in-depth language discussion.

 

In areas of ambiguity like this I find it best to just go with your preferred style. One of the more memorable things taught to me was that as long as you're consistent and don't break your own 'rules', the communication will be clear.

 

I was also taught that breaking rules for the sake of impact is fine as long as you're actually aware of them and do it in a way that doesn't compromise readability.

 

So at the end of the day, intricate rules about in exactly what circumstances what is used are largely superfluous. Although as far as I'm aware the way the title is currently spelt is more likely to appeal to most people's perception of what's correct, I still personally would use Glottis' in normal conversation because it just seems more natural to me. I pronounce it verbally as Glottis's, however.

 

Incidentally, the BBC and Sky frequently use it in the Glottis' way on television in programme summaries and the like, and subtitles. I was also taught in (an English) school to use it in the Glottis' sense.

 

The beautiful thing about language is that the speakers and writers dictate the future of it, not a committee. Words like 'alternative' and 'alright' are a testament to this reality (the former should never technically be used to refer to more than the one alternative option, and the latter is technically slang but has been elevated to the 'rank' of a non-standard word due to such widespread use).

[Stickywulf]

Yeah, you're right. Only after this lengthy discussion and then I saw how the word was spelt in the game I thought it was worthy of mentioning.

[stewlil]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

This guy got alot more than he bargained for!

[elemily]

Glottis' Garage looks less like a typo

[Du Man]

nice flamebait. Subtle, quick, and non-committal.