How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[Agen]

I was wondering about how you'd be able to balance the guns and the saber in jk2.

In JK u simply got a big gun called a conc that fires blue stuff and went crazy and killed everything in your way. The saber posed the least threat as you would jsut run a few meters away then start shooting crap out of them while the saber pitifully swings hurting nothing except stray germs flying through the air. So how do you think you would be able to balance it os you won't jsut use the Bigggest moronic killing gun ever(ok maybe not as bad as the redeemer).

But you don't want the saber to become a all round god like staff!

I'd like to see your views and maybe we can give raven a few good ideas and tips.

[Guest digl]

maybe some kind of force protection (that consumes lots of mana) that "magnetically seals" you, and weapons fire bounce back from you. This could work for all weapons except TDs

 

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

[The_WAH]

Perhaps it would make the game more balanced if you could block more weapons with your saber in JKII than in JK (I think there were only about 4 weapons you could actually block in JK) Of course you wouldn't be able to block non-energy weapons (like thermals and such, they'd probably blow up if you tried) but one of the few problems I had with JK was that blocking was very rarely used. I saw in some E3 footage gave the saber more functions (like saber throw) so it could be a more verstile weapon than it was before. I hope anyway.

 

BTW... I'm a new guy, even though I never posted anything I've been a lurker around here for quite some time.

[Guest digl]

welcome The_WAH

Wait for stormhammer with his welcome medallions and Jedi Knight_114 gift baskets. You should get them during the day

 

Saber throwing was in mots, but It seems Its better now

 

Good point blocking more weapons, but Itd look weird i.e. blocking the conc or rail or a similar weapon

 

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

[Agen]

Welcome to jk2.net hope u enjoy the hype.

Yeh the saber has saber throw and such and it has been confirmed that u can stop T.Ds by using foce push to get them away but liek everything it's bound to not owrk soemtimes.

But things liek the conc couln't have been stopped mainly because it was compressed air.i don't think foce push would stop the rocket launcher but it has blanced the game by much i suspect.

The Flechette has cannot be stopped by a saber as it jsut bursts everything out and i'd imagine it's liek the flak cannon in UT.

But i'd like to see some sort of warning when someone ahs fired and it relativly coming in ur direction.

So when someone has fired an energy weapon there will be an on-screen warning and if ur quick enoguh u'll be able to jump outo f the way.

Also since we're using ghoul 2 what about u can knock the saber out of ur opponents hand if u hit hish and (probably applies to multilpayer more) and also when u use force push hew drops his gun and isntead of bringing out fists u could jsut see your hand and then it woydl let you climg away or start fighting.

[Omedarcus]

I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

 

I've never seen Obi-Wan Kenobi need a rocket launcher, so why should any Jedi? . JK2 should prove Obi-Wan's description in Episode 4, that the lightsaber is better than any blaster or anything else.

 

It'd be cool to be able to fight a whole load of stormtroopers and kill them all without losing health, unlike in JK1 & MotS where you'd take a lot of damage and couldn't kill them all. I'm basing this statement on just the JK1 & MotS demos, so I could be wrong

[Kwup]

jedi are pussies

 

they have to use the force (AKA cheats) to kill stuff

 

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: RaoK ]

[SlowbieOne]

Jedi are what?

 

I'm sorry but that's pretty uncalled for. If you think Jedi's are weak, then why are you here? Why not go play some other game? This is JK2, starring, you guessed it, a Jedi. I think you're jealous of Jedi cause YOU can't use the force.

 

I prefer balance, but if they are gonna make one weapon dominant like they did with the Conc., I say make the Saber more powerful than anything.

 

I plan on saber dueling more than anything anyway.

[Guest digl]

I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

 

Sorry but I dont agree at all

As Iv stated hundreds of times, IMO what made JK so good and so popular was Its variety

You had weapons, saber, and the force. And you could mix them as you wanted to

Play NF saber, NF guns, FF saber, FF guns, or everything at the same time, It had something for everyone. I want the same and more in outcast

 

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: digl ]

[Agen]

I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

No i have to strongly disagree with you there as i was a ff gunner in jk and i woudln't want jk2 to be just a saber game. if u want that then Jedi Power Battles is for you.

JK was so popular because u could choose. You could choose force. You could choose your looks. You could choose you saber. You could choose to use your saber. You could choose to use guns. You could choose not to use the force.You could choose to use the force. U had the choice. Jk was good because it was you choosing what u want to be, much liek Black and White, You are supposed to be a god but You are really udnerneath what ur creature is.

JK had a variety and how hard is it to kill a heap of metal that shoots at u. 1 jedi blocks one jedi kills.

In jk2 u can go through the whole game with just your saber or jsut with guns. You don't even need to use the force. JK2 is resembling this because this is what made JK so good. You have to balance and i don't think you're going to balance liek they way u said it. I don't want anything to dominate. JK was perfect gameplay almost except for the unbalancing. Raven has a big job to balance this.

We're with you alll the way raven (except to the toilet )

[Cartman's Dad]

Well in all of the 9 posts there's been some quite good ideas.

I think we should have a thing were everytime u use the biggest gun u can get it takes off some of your shield.

[Agen]

Yeh there should be some way someway to penalise people for being unfair by using the meanest gun. For MP only though because ur only hurting the comp in sp.

Like what about taking off some er.. i dunno soemthing.

[Moradivh]

In the original JK, sabers were a joke. You only used them for bosses, or when you're looking for a "special challenge." As for the other 90% of the game, guns were best. And only 2 of them, the BIGGEST guns. How stupid is that?

 

Why should the dev's waste time designing weapons so pathetically weak that nobody with intentions of survival actually use them?

 

Drawing upon the movies (and looking at the game's title - JEDI KNIGHT), one might conclude that lightsabers should be all-powerful. But that's idiotic too.

 

Weapons require BALANCE. Do you have any idea how much more fun the original JK would've been if everything was JUST as dangerous? I might still be playing the game now, 4 years later.

 

I don't have a beef with rewarding the player with better weapons as they progress through the game. Maybe the first one or two guns Kyle finds will be crappy. But it's a stupid waste of resources to design EVERY gun, except two, so they'll only be used for an hour, and practically never again in solo OR multiplayer.

 

The lightsaber should ALWAYS be dangerous, no matter who you're fighting, no matter what weapon he has. A saber should be as practical as any conc rifle or rocket launcher. But it shouldn't be BETTER than these weapons.

 

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: The_Line ]

[StormHammer]

Hmmm, interesting points raised so far.

 

The best way I can see around it if there is going to be a powerful weapon like the conc, is that there should be either a limit to the ammo available on the level, or it should in a hard location to reach, or maybe give it a slower rate of fire...or perhaps the weapon starts to overheat the more you use it, and inflicts damage on the user. That was a feature I liked in Gunman Chronicles.

 

That way, although you could use a really powerful weapon, it would have it's drawbacks.

 

Of course, that would only limit the weapons use, and not provide a defence against it, but it could potentially offer more balance.

 

 

The_WAH...I have welcomed you in another thread.

[Omedarcus]

I agree with The Line, it's a Jedi game so using some laser rocket launcher (the concusion rifle) is out of place. I could see if this was Shadows of the Empire 2 or something and we're talking about Dash Rendar using guns, then it'd be cool. But Kyle Katarn is now this strong Jedi, like Obi-Wan young & old, therefore the lightsaber should be the most important weapon and the most fun . I also agree that the JK1 lightsaber was a joke. The JK2 saber should be ....I know I keep referring to it...a "laser sword" version of a powered up Heretic II blade

[thrEEpaGe]

the idea of 'penalizing' people for using the decent guns is idiotic!

 

and no, that's not an opinion!

 

first of all, there already is a penalty..splash damage! you can kill yourself easily with the CR unless you know how to shoot it (i never do, but im elite )...the saberers, imo dont understand the eliteness of the jk1 CR...it owned!

 

second of all, if you were to penalize someone for that, it would be from the recoil, and since they obviously have more advanced technology than us, they obvioulsy would have some kind of recoil absorption system (heck i think at least ONE person has that now)..

 

and if you want to go play sabers, just get on a dedicated servers that disallows all guns and go saber away to your heart's content =)

 

the whole problem i saw with jk1 saber whiners was when they would come into oasis (any version) and complain when you were owning them away with the cr when they had a saber (or any other non splash damage gun)....in ji, for instance, you are given opportunity to get and keep the cr, and was pointless not to use it [due to it being incredibly time consuming to use say the repeater only with jk's lag])

 

anyway, thats my 2 cents..we need splash damage in JKO!!!!

 

as for the single player, the CR wasnt available until the middle of the game...and even then, power cells were scarce (i only played hard difficulty)....and by doing that they made each shot count!

 

i would even venture to say that the saber is UNFAIR! eventually, the power source on a light saber would run out! you dont need batteries to maintain your lightsaber. therefore, the saber is unfair, and the CR is completely fair!

 

okay maybe im a little off base on that last one, but im a debater....leave me alone

 

anyway, thats my opinion =)

[TrUeFoRcE]

i hope they dont put another force power liek force protection in jk2, that just got annoying getting all ur shots deflected and thats all the person had to do was press a key and activate it..atleast if they have it make they should it last a very short time or something...

[Moradivh]

Thanks, Omedarcus and thrEEpaGe, for representing the two opposite extremes of this issue: the crazed gun fanatics and radical saber-lovers.

 

So what's my bias? Well, I played a lot of multiplayer JK. I know how all the weapons worked. I played FF, NF, sabers-only, and no-restriction games. I could hold my own in conc-rifle deathmatches, but my favorite games were no-force lightsaber duels. I got to the top 40 on Case's Ladder with just my sword, and could've got a lot better if I had more interest.

 

I'm also a fan of realism in games, and balance (duh). It saddened me to see hordes of Jedi get gunned down by some prancing idiot with a rocket launcher. I was horrified by the sheer uselessness of trying to deflect gunfire with a saber. I wept at the suckiness of Chewbacca's bowcaster rifle (that gun should OWN!!!). And seriously: why does Kyle persist on carrying around his trademark "Brayer pistol" if it's such a puny gun? I don't care how sentimental it is: the guy's LIFE is in danger. And another thing... why would the Empire, a regime with enough resources to build DEATH STARS, equip their entire military force with the suckiest, most pathetic firearm in the galaxy: the Stormtrooper rifle?

 

Anyway, realism's a whole other can of beans, and very dependent on one's point of view.

 

Omeda, I'm glad you liked my post, but you missed the point. I have nothing against guns, and I said explicitly that sabers should NOT be better than everything else.

 

I loved the guns in JK. They were HELLA' fun to use, had some wicked concepts built around them. But they weren't balanced, especially in multiplayer -- and multiplay is the one true test of a shooter's longevity.

 

Examples: chewie's bowcaster was the only gun that could bounce off walls and multishot, but it STILL couldn't hit anything. Meanwhile, the concussion rifle was a 100% accurate, far-reaching, exploding superweapon. There was usually plenty of ammo for it on multiplayer maps, and if you did manage to run dry, you could just force-speed and hide from your enemy until the ammo respawned. In games like this, there were two options of play: to use the conc rifle, or to die.

 

And the lightsaber? HAAA HAHAHAA. Out of the 8 or 9 moves you could do with it, only ONE was remotely dangerous (the double-swing), and even that couldn't kill another player with one hit. Plus the greenest newbie in the universe could dodge your swing and vaporize you with a concussion rifle at 500 yards.

 

You see, I don't want the lightsaber to make a player invincible. I don't want a mega-uber wookie gun. I'm only asking for these weapons to STAND A CHANCE, to be something other than suicidal.

 

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: The_Line ]

[DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by TrUeFoRcE:

<STRONG>i hope they dont put another force power liek force protection in jk2, that just got annoying getting all ur shots deflected and thats all the person had to do was press a key and activate it..atleast if they have it make they should it last a very short time or something...</STRONG>

 

You can knock out protection with 2-3 conc/rail shots or a few saber strikes combined with direct destruction hits.

 

If they're stupid or extremely low on force and don't have absorb activated, you can also simply pull their gun and/or blind them.

[DeathBoLT]

The storm trooper rifle wasn't made powerful enough in Jedi Knight.. however, in closed area, it did have a stun effect and if you can get close enough to them for a few seconds, you can easily score a kill against a conc-yielding player who can't fire at you without hitting himself very easily.

 

In the movies, its a strong weapon..

at least for your typical boarding operations, closed area fighting, etc.

And you also didn't see everyone wielding grenade launcher/artillery type deals(concs)..

[Terminator1587246523]

but they even gave the conc an advantage.. the secondary fire gave it no splash weapon.

[The_WAH]

I think the programmers originally intended the 8 power cell drain of the conc to be its disadvantage, but in multiplayer it was easy enough to find ammo and it only took a couple shots to kill someone with it. Now if they made the big weapon in JKII similar to the BFG was in QuakeIII you could only find the BFG in one place on the map and the ammo was very hard to find. I guess this would make it perhaps more balanced. In order to use the weapon efficently you would have to be a good shot otherwise your dead. (It sucks when you run out of ammo and your only other weapon is a pea-shooter)

[Kurt Plummer]

Some Ideas Again (sorry, a few repeats...).

 

First off, you folks are going too directly at the problem IMO. You need to back off and go-round the edges to accept 'entertainment' as much as intensity effects.

 

1. Shields: everyone or noone.

Again, 'just because you're a great hero'... Doesn't mean that everyone else is just cannonfodder to make your legend.

So /some/ NPCs (Non Player Characters) should have their own shields and need 8-10 hits to represent random 'miniboss', in-level, equivalents to your character, as if they are having their own adventure-of-a-lifetime fate, only working for the other side.

 

2. Who Whut Where.

Whether 'reflective' of armoring or actual energy shielding, basic personal protection should also be classed by character and encounter environment. Clothed characters like civillians, criminals or officer corps should be '1 hit kills'. So too, IMO, should Jedi.

 

These should form the majority of encounter groups you meet because armor or shields should raise eyebrows in a 'normal' environs and in mil vs. mil they tend to cancel out do to greater firepower.

 

To make the a shieldless Jedi worthwhile, instantaneous reaction (force predict) should be tied to a fixed number of blocked-bolts-per-second or say 40` incident arrival angle.

 

So you may not necessarily be /surprised/ (and hence don't need to worry about sniper kills) but your Sabre skills are very vulnerable to overload from spread defilade crossfires and multiple shooters, especially early on.

 

Most certainly ST's should take more hits than black shirts to kill to. I /hated/ this in JK1, it made NO sense.

 

3. Evade or Stagger, Not Drop Dead.

Our own Specfor troops now have 'RBA' or Ranger Body Armor. This is because they often are far from home or help and MUST maintain the spirit of assault (i.e. 'storm') in cases of random hits until an objective is taken by fire and shock.

 

RBA is actually quite effective at stopping midrange assault rifle fire which is not specifically 'armor piercing'.

 

But that round still has the decelerative physics of a half ounce, moving at a half mile per second, and stopping in a half inch.

 

To put it simply: _It **HURTS LIKE HELL** 2B Hit_.

 

When concentrated enough as a plasma 'blaster' pulse, energy works the same way (i.e. it has a physical inertia as well as incendiary effect, see the Millenium Falcon getting bounced around by Star Destroyer fire).

 

Between these two effects, armor should function more like a second-chance 'warning flag' so that you WANT TO DUCK when hit.

Especially if you can get behind cover and continue to lay down supporting fire, you are still 'doing your job' while the 'future medics' (other rifleman) finish theirs.

 

Impie Armor especially should be similar to this, gradually disabling unless you are hit in specific areas (broken neck from head blast, shattered arm from gun-around-obstacle hit or similar).

 

Not always killing but certainly something that a good bacta tank visit might be warranted for recovery from.

 

4. Not all Guns Are Equal...

ANY modern gunpowder driven weapon will kill you, given it's aimed straight, and at the right point.

 

But that doesn't keep people from designing new ones for a perceived incremental improvement or because of fashion/cultural differences.

 

A .22 Saturday Night Special revolver will kill anyone inside 10ft if you empty the cylinder. At 20ft you may not even hit them.

 

The classic '.45' ACP will knock you on your butt from 50yds with an incredible wallop but it won't go through most of the higher end vests from 20.

 

An assault rifle which fires that same '.22' caliber round at about four times the muzzle velocity will do for you at 400m, 800m if you are given optics and some specialist training.

 

You may not be able to find a .22 SDS outside of the large American metroplis', you certainly may not be able to find a .45 in the heart of Russia. You probably /won't/ find an M-16 anywhere outside a military arsenal.

 

But there will be 'close equivalents'.

 

We should be forced to similar 'make do' varieties of weapons and milspec graded varieties should actually be very hard to come up with or 'carry through a spaceport inspection' on a lot of planets.

 

Instead, we should have a nearly endless variety of semiauto or restricted-power, '3 round burst', pistol-type weapons with changes in color and length of bolt, recoil and dispersion and shock, thermal and penetrative damage. Both for and against us.

 

Impies should come later with more advanced blaster and a _very few_ 'assault' (ATGW or LAW/RPG type systems) backing them up.

 

5. Sighting Aids DO Help.

Like I've said before, I enjoy the 'awareness' sense of external F1 view. It helps my SA and improves the walking-in-movie enviro-entertainment factors of all that pretty virtual set design. But I never play with guns out side of 1st person because it's impossible to 'feel' the exact aimpoint of your gun.

 

With that in mind it would do a LOT of good to have a 'Bionic Armbrace' to help hold guns more steady and a 'Death Dot' bore-dot to help us _AIM STRAIGHT_, in game.

 

Though I despise the 'Easter Bunny' effects of casually room-inhabitive shields etc. I /do like/ finding more than just ammo among the dead to add to my own arsenal. Especially if I have to finagle it a bit to make it work (a good opportunity for a short animation as you gun is 'upgraded').

 

Some enemies should also have these so that bursts of rounds come in a lot more densely clustered than others do and I suppose if you die you should lose at least some of your stuff.

 

6. Differing Paths To Enlightenment.

Especially if this could be worked into separate plotlines, I see NO PROBLEM making some people mundane-but-mean-as-a-snake vs. the sly-but-a-little-light-on-firepower Jedi.

 

Purely through a "You can't leap tall buildings with more than 2 weapons" weighting.

 

While I almost exclusively fight as a Jedi now because I have Saber-X and some experience, I know that it would have been nearly impossible for me to win as a blade-only warrior, let alone at the speeds I try to maintain per level, my first time out.

 

Especially when it's so FUN to armageddon it!:-)

 

As such, I don't see why you couldn't blast your way through checkpoints (you would Jedi-normally only 'I'm a civillian!' walk past) with a horde of weapons that set off every security alarm in the joint and a 'yeah right, come get sum...' carefree glee.

 

As long as those weapons are ENERGY blockable or MASS (force) shuntable within the limits of saturation that a single Jedi could successfully face in the NPC equivalents, there should be no problemo in SP.

 

In MP, let people set up the artificial rules they think best, you put up with the club or you don't join up.

 

 

Okay, that about covers it...;-) Kurt P

[Terminator1587246523]

Alot of that was good and i agree with most and also the realistic factor about how much u can jump while carrying a bazooka on ur back. In jk u could have very gun and jump some 30 feet. if u were wearing jsut clothes that's posssible for a jedi but een if ur a jedi carrying so many guns is half impossible.

Also i'd like to see a bit where ur in position where u either have to giver up ur guns to egt away or carry on and take the lnog way.. or in multiplay there could be a "bribe" factor.. where there is a jedi and u have to jump to get out but u are carrying all ur guns and have to ditch them or fight the opposing jedi by taking out ur lightsaber and carrying lots of guns slows down ur performance with the lightsaber.

Anyway i think we have some good ideas and since we're using ghoul 2 shouldn't we be able to have amazing falls like when u fall off somewhere and u land on ur head and break it and obviously ur dead and ur body bounces up and then slumps to the ground in style. but we can keep it realistic rather than having bouncy balls flying everywhere as soon as u have a slight fall.

[Guest Emon]

If Raven knows what they are doing, it'll probably be like this: Your a gunner, with a full weapon loadout. You see a Jedi with his saber ignited running at you. You run. FAST.

 

I hope they do class play in MP, like in MotS, but more balanced. They should make it so you can be a variety of gunners or a Jedi.

 

They will at least have balanced weapons in MP, for sure. If they don't it's gonna kill it just like JK.