How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[Moradivh]

Thanks for backing me up here Terminator. That's exactly how I see the game.

 

I used to fight against Element... 3 years ago. But I was always outnumbered. I could've put up a fight against one of you guys... probably couldn't beat the best of you though.

 

This brings back fun memories.

 

See madrebel? I KNEW the bowcaster sucked ass. And you go telling me I'm not a good player... Idunno what kind of goofs you were fighting last night, but the bowcaster is CRAP.

 

What the hell... gettin me all worried I missed some uber-bowcaster-patch fix in the last 3 years....

 

**walks away mumbling**

[madrebel]

at close range....used for surprise attacks the bowcaster is a good weapon.

 

ill admit though that it has no place in FF battles its just not fast enough of a weapon. But it can be effective in NF matches...in certain situations.

 

Which is what you were saying that every gun needs to have something its good at. caster is good at close range.

[Moradivh]

Yeah, but it's not good enough. Not even close.

 

Besides, most people naturally play no-restrictions, FF. If the bowcaster was up for that, it would've been good for NF games too. But it wasn't. So it's still crap.

 

How Raven balances these weapons depends greatly on what game type they favor. Will they focus on FF guns vs sabers, or NF, or what?

 

Ideally, I think saber-Jedi's should be the only characters with full access to force powers, especially force speed and jump. Gunners simply should NOT be as good with the force or the saber.

 

Anyway, that's just my personal preference. We'll see how Raven handles this.

[madrebel]

i think youre right about that....gunners should be inmune to pull IMO with a weak absorb....if gunners had no force absord a jedi would totally own him.

 

thats why i vote for the personalities mode in JKO like it was in MOTS.

 

If the caster's secondary fire was a real strong hit-scan (q3 railgun style) it would be ALOT more efective.

[Agen]

All i say is i think the bowcaster DID suck.. ravne will make it good.

I really don't quite liek the personalities... it scares me.. i liek to use the force as well... ff no f4 or some crap just liek jk is what i want.

[Moradivh]

if gunners had no force absord a jedi would totally own him.

Yeah, but that's not what I want. Half the fun of these games is the GUNS. And the mines. And the thermal detonators. To hell with continuity -- I don't want the Jedi saber-fanatics to own everybody else.

 

So... the guns should be damned good, powerful enough to win against a Jedi of equal skill 50% of the time.

 

And gunners should be able to have SOME force abilities. Just not enough to make them better than Jedi.

 

Again, it'll will take a lot of weapon/force tweaking to get it right. But this game would ROCK in multiplayer if it was accomplished.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Agen_Terminator

All i say is i think the bowcaster DID suck.. ravne will make it good.

I really don't quite liek the personalities... it scares me.. i liek to use the force as well... ff no f4 or some crap just liek jk is what i want.

 

personalities was just an option bro. It wasnt forced. There was still the normal FF/NF and some force options.

 

personalities was cool though because it was i beleive the first multiplaye game that had different classes(team fortress may have been out already i honestly dont remember)

 

There was the jedi, the soldier, the bounty hunter, and the scout.

 

all with very clear strengths and weaknesses.

[Moradivh]

Unfortunately most people would just play FF/NF if they had a choice. So for most people, the game would still be kinda broken.

[aferens]

Here is some text from "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology".

 

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m.

 

Side-mounted power packs supply enough energy for 100 shots.

 

The accuracy should be higher than the previous games in normal mode, and slightly less than MotS in scoped mode. There should be 100 shots in each power pack.

[madrebel]

Originally posted by aferens

Here is some text from "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology".

 

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m.

 

Side-mounted power packs supply enough energy for 100 shots.

 

The accuracy should be higher than the previous games in normal mode, and slightly less than MotS in scoped mode. There should be 100 shots in each power pack.

 

 

secondary fire IMO should be a 2x zoom that fires at about 50-60% of max fire rate.

 

In no way should it, while zoomed, become a magically high powered sniper rifle.

[digl]

I think the scope now will be on the bryar, not in the ST rifle

[madrebel]

Originally posted by digl

I think the scope now will be on the bryar, not in the ST rifle

 

the bryar is a waste of polygons.

 

unless they double the power per shot and make it a hit scan weapon its totally worthless. it fires to slow.

 

but still.....the st rifle has a scope it needs to be used.

[Moradivh]

It's a waste of polygons that's going into the game whether you like it or not. So they might as well make it useful.

 

I still think they should increase the pistol's firing rate slightly, give it a super fast draw and auto-targetting, so it can't miss at close range. That'd make it more practical in multiplayer AND an excellent "newbie gun" for the solo game. It still wouldn't quite have the punch of a ST rifle, but it'd be close.

[Kurgan]

Another thing I'd like to say on the subject of "realism" in FPS games... I noticed in AvP2 that if you pull out the "smart gun" it makes you move more slowly.

 

Now the first thing that popped into my mind was "lame!"

because I knew they had done this with "balancing" in mind and people were going to think "ah, the weapon is HEAVY and so therefore it makes you move slowly."

 

However, barring having a transport weapons buffer like EF, this would make NO SENSE whatsoever. Why? Because lets say you bring a gun like that into battle, that is so heavy it makes you walk at half normal speed and makes running impossible. That would mean that even when you UNLIMBERED the gun and put it away (in your backpack) it would STILL weight you down and slow your movement.

 

So the other explanation you could give for that would be that the character CHOOSES to move more slowly when carrying the gun. Why? Because it's a harder gun to aim, so it requires precision. But then why not simply make the gun only accurate when standing still? That would force the player to stop for shots, but still be able to run around if need be, but his shots would go wild (AvP1 did this with certain guns, although the smart gun had no restrictions).

 

Then it came to me... in the Aliens movie, the Smartgun was actually attached to the soldier. It was like a tripod gun but was hooked up to their suit. It took time to setup, restricting movement, etc. Thus the slowness is simply because it hampered movement with its bulky design, not because it was heavy.

 

I guess the way I see it, is that a game can follow the "classic" FPS design that WORKS (Ie: that is balanced and fun). When it tries to be "realistic" by throwing in some limiting factors, it should have a good explanation, because I LIKE being able to do stuff that I can't do in real life. That's one reason I play video games.. because its' fantasy and anything is possible.

 

Obviously a game can be balanced, and still be unrealistic, but when you throw in a "realistic" factor (which seems to be popular thing to do these days in FPS games) you should at least try to explain why (to the players).

 

Like for example if the plot of the game is that you are Superman, and invulnerable, but simple bullets can kill you, there should be an explanation, even if it's just "they are kryptonite coated bullets." At least that makes it easier to overlook the glaring inconsistency (since it's dealing with the story itself and not simply well worn gameplay mechanics, like multiple lives or one man armies, saving, etc).

 

Stuff like save gems and one hit kills might be more "realistic" but are they any more fun, or just adding to frustration? I saw to the game developers, when in doubt, make it an OPTION, not the default mode.

 

Kurgan

[madrebel]

Originally posted by Moradivh

It's a waste of polygons that's going into the game whether you like it or not. So they might as well make it useful.

 

I still think they should increase the pistol's firing rate slightly, give it a super fast draw and an auto-fire mode, so it can't miss at close range. That'd make it more practical in multiplayer AND an excellent "newbie gun" for the solo game. It still wouldn't quite have the punch of a ST rifle, but it'd be close.

 

it doesnt have to be in multiplayer

 

also, auto-aim? uhmm no If i die by the pop gun i want it to be 100% humiliating, i want to know some jerk off got a lucky shot with it and it wasnt auto-aim

 

auto aim could be exploited by the bad people.

 

[digl]

The bryar would be very useful If its used as a sniping weapon

 

The scope is there just because the STs have a terrible aim

 

The BlasTech E-11 (ST rifle) has a maximum range of 300m, optimal range of 100m

 

It couldnt be used to snipe if it has an optimal range of 100m

[madrebel]

Originally posted by digl

The bryar would be very useful If its used as a sniping weapon

 

The scope is there just because the STs have a terrible aim

 

 

 

It couldnt be used to snipe if it has an optimal range of 100m

 

right, the 2x zoom makes 100 meter shots alot easier

 

im not talking 10x-20x super hardcore marine sniper scope.

 

unfortunately i have to use the example because it fits but, have you played counter strike? They have 2 assault rifles 9sig commando and the stery aug) that have similar scopes. These are by no means "sniper" rifles but at medium range they are VERY accurate when firing 2-4 shot bursts. Thats all im saying should be done with the st rifle.

[Moradivh]

Short-range auto-aim? As in, almost point blank. It'd still be the smallest weapon and fairly humiliating to die from. But it wouldn't be the ultimate fluke of the universe, if that's what you mean.

 

A guy with a pistol should still be a threat, albeit a smaller one. There's no point in designing a weapon that makes your enemies laugh out loud.

 

The auto-aim would be an optional function of the gun, and not location-specific. So if the game allowed head shots, the pistol would STILL always target the torso. One hit kills wouldn't happen.

[madrebel]

heh aim for yourself bro

 

if you dont have a weapon that is good at close range.....dont get in a close range fight.

 

only way the bryer would be of any use is if they upped the power and maybe gave it a scope.

 

either get rid of it in multiplayer or make it more powerful

 

[Kurgan]

Auto-Aim is fine in SP, but in general, only a few guns should have it (like the smart gun in AvP for example). I prefer to have my shots go where I fire them. It's bad enough with lag screwing around, if everyone has autoaim, it just kind of degenerates into a fire-and-forget fest without any kind of skill required, as I see it...

 

As far as the Bryar having a zoom feature, I thought it had been established by Raven/LEC that only one weapon would have a zoom feature and it was not to be the ST Rifle, Bowcaster OR Bryar?

 

In any case, yes the Bryar as seen in DF/JK/MotS is pretty weak.. slow rate of fire and low damage. It was only useful really in JK for sniping, and other than that it was totally outmatched by just about every other weapon (putting the BlasTech into MotS made it entirely irrelevant in many cases as well). Yet, it should be kept in mind that the Bryar is a MODIFIED weapon (from a Bryar Rifle) so who's to say that Kyle Katarn can't simply MODIFY IT SOME MORE to make it more powerful and useful in the new game?

 

That I'd like to see. Give it another firing mode that makes it more useful.

 

Currently, it's obvious that the Bryar was put into the first game to have a trademark weapon and in each successive game because it follows the successively more powerful weapon distribution progression that has been present in all traditional FPS single player games since the beginning (just about every FPS starts you out with the standard "peashooter"). The only area it really has a balance problem is in Multiplayer.

 

Kurgan

[madrebel]

whos to say Lucas didnt screw the pooch and make this "moddified" weapon far to weak. I find it hard to beleive that and ass kickin vigilante would really use this pathetic peice of garbage as his primary weapon.

 

 

Also hopefully the caster in JKO is a replica of chewy's "moddified" caster

 

[digl]

double post there

right, the 2x zoom makes 100 meter shots alot easier

That sounds good for the ST rifle

 

And the bryar should be more powerful

[madrebel]

Originally posted by digl

double post there

 

That sounds good for the ST rifle

 

And the bryar should be more powerful

 

waiting for this game is going to drive me whacky.

[acdcfanbill]

i figgure if it is slower than the ST it should have more punch per shot, its huge in comparison with other pistols, whats all that room for? hopefully for making slow, deadly shots...

[madrebel]

i gotta tell ya, i wouldnt mind seeing a big hitting shooting 'default" weapon.

 

as long as it hits hard to make up for its whack ass speed.