How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[SSH83]

I don't think anyone already mentioned this but com'on ppl, the solution is so simple here! All they need to do is to make an option in MP so that anyone who switches to gun or anything other than a saber, here on refered to Gunners, will have no access to Force power whatsoever. There's balance for ya.

I mean the real conern here isn't the fact that someone using a StormTrooper Rifle will always get screw by Conc Rifle user, but instead all we are really worrying about is the fact that Conc Rifle is so powerful, wielder can litereally kill saber-wielder without a scratch. However, when the gunners are unable to use the force, suddenly the real Jedi would have advantages against Gunner just like how Gunner has range advantages over Jedi.

At least in JK, a NF Gunner has as much chance of winning as a FF Jedi do; that is a newbie with a concusion rifle wouldn't just own any experienced Saber-Wielder. The reason for that is the force power that allowed long ranged kill or sneaky approach toward the gunner can allow a Jedi to outwit the gunner.

IE. persuasion/Bind/Grip + speed then saber, or Force Destruction/DeadlySight+speed then go in for kill. OR the cheap way, Force Pulling the gun.

From all the games that I have played Role-Playing style in, (NF Gunner VS FF Jedi, me being one of the first to promote that, ), nobody seemed to mind the fact that Gunners get to use the Conc Rifle, because it IS just like going against an AT-AT using a light saber. Mass Attack Power with no manuvability VS Fast Moving Melee Combatant. Granted more details would need to be worked out, Ex. preventing somebody to Force Lightning while holding a light saber then quickly change to gun for the kill, either style of play can yeild just as much frags, thus achieving balance.

 

Comments?

[madrebel]

a "gunner" without any force abilities is a sitting duck.

 

i would just force pull his gun then force grip with a force blast mixed in.

 

if i was light side force blind him and pull his gun then hack him to pieces, maybe push him off a cliff of something.

 

a "gunner" IMO needs to have a low level absorb (read immune to pull) that lowers damage done by the force.

 

after all a jedi still has shields which absorbs weapon damaage right?

 

a low level force speed would be nice for a gunner as well as a low level force sight

[SSH83]

madrebel, yes, a gunner is more or less a sitting duck defensively, as are most of the range attackers in RPGs, but a lot of the things I mentioned could also be countered by gunner without force power of his own. For example against force pull, you simply hold your Storm Trooper pistol, or use your fist when running around, set your Conc Rifle to a handy key next to your moving keys, take out your Conc as you aim, and shoot when u see an enemy. Then for blind, you run like a pansy and hope you can spot your opponent as soon as blind starts to wear off, and take your shot.(Btw, blind is cheap against everyone including jedi players anyway, Force seeing helps but blind is still cheap) For force damage dealers, you take them head on. it's just like as if they are also using range weapons against you, and with Conc, you can usually win if that's all what the Jedi do.

The fact of the matter is, a gunner lacks the force, but he will have all the other weapons to his advantage to do things that a Jedi can't do, Ex. Camping at power-up, Sniping, Circle-Strafing while shooting.

In an other word, a gunner is a whole different element/play style that you simply can't mix jedi stuff into. For example, how the hell will a Jedi ever win against a force speeded Conc Rifle user? The gunner just hit and run all the way. Now I'm not saying the result is absolete as an experienced Jedi would then persuasion/blind/grip or whatever, but then a good gunner would then go for corners and avoid that, then the jedi will... you get the picture. Just imagine Boba Fett VS Luke, Fett doesn't have force reinforcements, but he still has a fair chance of winning since he can, snipe, mine, out-gun, etc. Luke. But if Boba Fett uses force, he would probably dominate Luke since he has BOTH range attacking capability AND force power. In conclusion a NF Gunner play style is really just as easy/hard to play/master and dependent of the player's skills as a FF Jedi play style.

 

btw, I think force destruction by itself can kill somebody in 2 shots, while Conc kills in 3. But conc rifle can fire alot more times than one can fire w/ force destruction.

[Agen]

Giving them no force powers is far too harsh

[acdcfanbill]

well, it should be a setting on the server, so each game could specify whether gunners had ff, nf, or somewhere inbetween..

[madrebel]

Ill tell ya right now i would totally own a NF gunner if i had FF and a saber.

 

reason being the gunner is slow, ground bound, and at the mercy of my grip/blast/blind/pull/lightning/push........

 

notice i said the gunner shouldnt have force jump. Give the gunner the lowest possible speed increase is all im saying. make him a bit faster than normal but slower than a jedi.

 

The gunner needs to be able to absorb some damamge from force powers such as blast/grip/lightning and have a high resistance to things like blind and pull.

 

hell make it 80% resistance to those maybe even 90% i dont know.

 

Also i dont think a jedi should be totally denied of guns....let a jedi have thermals and mines and maybe up to the repeater, just not any of the "main stay" guns. Or maybe thermals, mines, and the Bryar only?

 

a "gunner" needs some force ability or he will get totally owned.

[SSH83]

madrebel, of course a Jedi would be able to beat up on a NF Gunner head on, but just try to really think of a different style of play. For example, the gunners would be sniping from high up or some hiding spot before a jedi can see him, yeilding kill.

[madrebel]

right, presumming there is a force sight and a map hud in JKO like JK before it. A jedi ALWAYS knows where thegunner is rendering the sneak tactic useless.

 

A "gunner" needs to have a chance straight up against a jedi without having to rely on 1 in a million shots

[SlowbieOne]

I think it's safe to say there will be a Force Seeing. There should be because it's one of a Jedi's main Force powers and its used in a lot of the EU books.

 

I liked Force Seeing in JK, but I felt they didn't use it properly.

 

In alot of the books particularly the Thrawn Trilogy, Luke reaches out with the Force and can sense beings within a given radius, whether it was through a wall, or not.

 

True, the map worked OK, for Force Seeing, but I think it could be better utilized than that.

 

For instance, you could turn on Force Seeing and stretch out with the Force, and maybe you can see heat sources through walls. Or possibly a sound (e.g. a heartbeat) that gets gradually louder as you get closer.

 

There are many different possibilities, but I always felt uncomfortable with the map on, it took away from the fun becuase it drowns out the gamescreen so you don't get the full visual effect. Also, I highly doubt when Luke Stretched out with the Force, a green map activates in his head where he could see everything.

 

It seems to me like it would be something deeper than that.

[Moradivh]

Just got back from a 20-hour school day... ugh...

 

There's one thing we're missing here: mods. Even if Raven restricts gunners from using the force, some modder will design a game with FF guns, and most players will SWARM to it (not all players, but a very, very large chunk).

 

Why? Because FF guns...

1) Was a classic, unique and fun-as-hell JK deathmatch that people are nostalgic about,

2) Features ALL the coolest abilities and weapons of JK, and...

3) It's more fast-paced than anything else.

 

An unbeatable combination, probably.

 

In a world without mods, I'd agree with madrebel: gunners should only have partial force powers. And heck, COMPLETELY denying them the force is another viable game-balance option (so long as guns are sufficiently powerful).

 

But neither of these "force-limiting" ideas is really a solution. Like I said, modders will find a way around it, and most people will probably stick to that mod like glue. So for the majority of players, the game will still be broken, as will the JKO community.

 

After long consideration, I think it'd be best for Raven to allow FF for everybody, gunners and saber-players alike.

 

But why would anyone use a saber then? Well, sabers would have to be buffed -- easier to hit moving targets, easier to deflect gunfire, and lethal in two swipes. Most sword swings would need a very long, reliable reach. Like madrebel suggested, perhaps Q3's netcode can lend a hand to sabers.

 

If worse comes to worst, some of the guns (and force abilities perhaps), might have to be nerfed. But only slighly, and only after the saber's been powered up.

 

A FF saber-fighter win against a FF gunner of the same skill 50% of the time... even if the guy's got a conc-rifle, even if he's running and jumping with force-speed. Like I've said a thousand times, it should be the SMARTER, more experienced player who wins, not the lamer with the uberweapon.

 

I just hope Raven doesn't overpower the "saber throw," and turn the sword into another lame-ass gun. It might be an easy fix to the saber's weakness, but there are better ways to accomplish that.

[[SWS]Strider]

Maybe also (this may be stupid but I'm brainstorming as ideas come) you could do a slowdown type thing. I know other people have suggested it but mines a little different. How about instead of a gun really slowing you down, instead you become a little more agile when youhave a saber. Since your not having to worry about aiming as much it would make since.Instead of slowing down a player with a gun, speed up the player with a lightsaber a bit.

 

Strider

[Terrin]

I believe in the FAQs... or was it an interview... that you CAN go through the entire single player with JUST your lightsabre. That form of play is possible but is very much a purists approach. To do it this way you'll most likely have to use a lot of stealth and force powers.

 

But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

[Agen]

I'm going to play it jsut as i did jk1........ Use everything at my disposal.

[digl]

Originally posted by Terrin

I believe in the FAQs... or was it an interview... that you CAN go through the entire single player with JUST your lightsabre. That form of play is possible but is very much a purists approach. To do it this way you'll most likely have to use a lot of stealth and force powers.

 

But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

 

Not the entire game, you dont start with lightsaber apparently, because they said something like after you get your lightsaber you dont need another weapon

[Agen]

I now baptise u an official smart ass.

[Guest [eVe]DeathBoLT]

wheres Torment to lay down a long tirade about newbie comments when you need him?? ;)

 

in NF, the only way to beat a conc-using gunner with half decent aim /w a saber is to ambush him around corners, etc. suprise is your only advantage in these type situations..

 

in FF however, the Force is the balancing factor; you try and remove force powers from gunners and you imbalance the game so that the gunner finds himself suffering the same plight the nf saberist in Oasis, only without the redeeming option of a suprise attack. Any half decent ff player keeps Map and Force Seeing on at all times, thus removing the possibility of the gunner ambushing the ff saberist.

 

A clever FF saberist can over come FF gunners via the force. Force Speed and Force Jump provide tremendous advantages in maneverubility. really the only way a Gunner could possibly defeat the advantage force speed/jump give would be if you gave him a ready supply of redeemer sized weapons..

 

Besides, with dedicated servers and pixel collision detection(or whatever its called ), lag will no longer impair the lightsaber's killing ability; i think you'll be seeing a extremely potent weapon in the form of the Lightsaber come Jedi Outcast. The lightsaber will be as leathal a weapon as any other gun

[Moradivh]

A clever FF saberist can over come FF gunners via the force.

In the original game, yes. But any experienced FF gunner wouldn't allow himself to be ambushed... or not very often. You'd have to be this amazing, brilliant saber tactician, or your gunner opponent would have to be stupid. If both combatants were EQUALLY skilled, sword ambushes would hardly ever happen.

 

Also, I know the score isn't everything, but a great bulk of players take it very seriously. If you can't get a GOOD score using a saber, and all the gunners are getting more frags, most players won't use the saber. They wouldn't want to handicap themselves against a gunner of equal skill.

 

Besides, with dedicated servers and pixel collision detection(or whatever its called ), lag will no longer impair the lightsaber's killing ability; i think you'll be seeing a extremely potent weapon in the form of the Lightsaber come Jedi Outcast. The lightsaber will be as leathal a weapon as any other gun

Sweeeet. That's all I want.

 

I hope you're right.

[SSH83]

Originally posted by Terrin

But the point is that it IS POSSIBLE to go through the entire game with just you lightsabre & force powers.

 

Actually, it WAS already possible to finish the game with only Saber and force in the original JK, tho it didn't have saber throw. The AI was a lot dumber than real players, so when you are able to get a good score in MP saber-only games, SP with saber-only was more or less a piece of cake. (It's all about Force Speed and strafing. Try it and you'll see) Somebody even beat medium diff with fist only. It just depends on how "hardcore" you are and how much are you able to endure the quick save/then kill yourself to load save game.

IMO, saber throw is just a "cheap" way for a jedi to take down the enemy. Just think of an RPG game where a melee character, warrior, barbarian, paladin or whatever, that throws a sword from afar to kill enemy. It's just kind of out of character. Not like I dislike Saber Throw or anything, cuz it certainly did make MoS a lot easier.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that it wasn't impossible to beat JK with saber only in the first place.

[Guest [eVe]DeathBoLT]

Originally posted by Moradivh

In the original game, yes. But any experienced FF gunner wouldn't allow himself to be ambushed... or not very often. You'd have to be this amazing, brilliant saber tactician, or your gunner opponent would have to be stupid. If both combatants were EQUALLY skilled, sword ambushes would hardly ever happen.

 

read closer:

in NF , the only way to beat a conc-using gunner with half decent aim /w a saber is to ambush him around corners, etc. suprise is your only advantage in these type situations..

 

I said exactly what you're saying further down in my post

[Agen]

are u spamming then?

j/k.

well......... this thread has got damn long. not quite as lnog as the dreaded raven comparisson but long anyway altohguh this thread won't get lcoked.

In JK the stormies and other enemies could maybe get a few shots into u when u were carrying a gun mainly because there was loads of them. when carrying the saber u blocked and used the force and killed htem so actually if u had a stormie rifle and a saber i'd pick saber if facing loads of them... but if conc and rail det were available it's self explanitory.

it was possible but eventually i decided it was taknig to long against bosses with the saber so i whipped out my comc and shot the bosses to death with my conc... not very jedish but who cares..

[SSH83]

U used gun against bosses?! But then you missed all the fun and the chance to kick ass as a superior jedi.

U must not have played JK MP w/ no gun a lot then?

[Agen]

First tiem i played it i done saber. Then i jsaut rat-a-tat-tated all the wya throguh.

[IronJedi Kaga]

Didn't get a chance to read through the whole thread, so this may be a repeat of an idea. The idea is to implement force energy absorb. Basically with force energy absorb (well as far as game terms), if you were hit with an energy weapon while this power was active, it would subtract force energy rather than health. As for where I got the idea, its a force power that appears in the expanded universe book "I, Jedi".

[Agen]

That's a good point u have there... good idea.... we've had similar ones but not that one i don't think.

[Dirth Vedar]

Originally posted by Omedarcus

I want it to be like the only weapon in the game. It should be like in the beginning of Episode 1 where all these droids are shooting at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and the two of them block the droids and kick their butts with just the lightsabers.

 

I disagree with this. While I agree the light saber should be more powerful, and you should be able to survive on saber alone, I don't think you should take away the fun aspects of the game by limiting concussion rifles.

 

Concussion rifles are very powerful, and so is the rocket launcher, but this is a First Person Shooter, and sometimes you do need to take out a gang of storm trooper in a hurry.

 

I don't play much MP, so I won't comment on the balance of the game there, but if they restrict the use of guns in Single player, the game will get boring VERY quickly. After cutting off the arms and legs of your 400th storm trooper, it just won't be fun any more.

 

And even if you allow concussion rifle, no one says it's a rule you must use it. I emensely enjoy the challenge of getting through as much of the game as possible with only a light saber. They should definitely make the light saber more useful, but should NOT make the concussion rifle less useful.

 

I think the light saber is useful enough as it is. It's great for deflecting shots from stationary gun pods, with persuassion, you can pretty much run around and kill gangs of people. Wouldn't work as well for guns because it takes more than one shot to kill baddies.

 

Keep in mind that concussion WILL kill you if you're careless, and that ammo will run out fast if used constantly, and slow refire rate, and I think that pretty much curbs constant cr use. But I think it's a butt load of fun to sneak up on a bunch of stormtroopers, and fire an accurate concussion shot, and watch them all fall down I still use blaster most of the time as the standard weapon though, so I don't think other guns are necessarily useless after a while. Perhaps if you're an unimaginative player...