How to Balance The Saber and Guns in JK2

[Ushgarak]

Well, with that last point about Kyle being able to go through loads of people, I did add that it was a gameplay issue, which was meant to take into account what you just said.

 

I think I also said that the rifle SHOULDN'T be single shot after all, a bit further down. it was all a matter of 'being like the films' vs. 'good gameplay', and in that instance the gameplay very much wins out in the need to have the rifle fire fast.

 

I also disagree about pull. I thought it was far too useful in the origianl, and also that if Jedi don't use it all the time in the films (when it would apparently be such a good tactic), there must be a good reason not to do it. I would say it was mostly unreliable and distracted you from doing other important things like blocking.

 

Thanks for the welcome, anyway. I hope this medallion tastes nice...

[Redwing]

I think there if they include a gun like the concussion rifle, it should heat up and inflict damage on the user if fired too many times in a row. After all, that would only add to the realism.

 

The JK saber was a joke. To use it successfully, you had to have the time to mess with it for weeks to months, and disallow guns since they simply were far superior to the saber. And it was not at all accurate to the real thing. I hear they're changing that in Jedi Outcast, and I really look forward too it (I hope one- or two-hit kills will be the norm with this thing. After all, it's a LIGHTSABER!)

 

A good idea would be locational damage; ie a hit to the arm would do less than a hit to the head, which should be a one hit kill.

 

The JK stormie rifle is sadly unrealistic. They obviously based its exaggerated inaccuracy on the common misconception that stormtroopers have no aim. When in fact, in the major scenes where they miss alot, in the Death Star and Bespin, they were under orders NOT to kill their quarry!

 

The Bryar was fine, realistic IMO except one thing: it's weakness. The Bryar should have been high powered! After all, we've been told that customized guns like his tend to be high-powered and ammo-wasting. So stay faithful to that! I mean, the guy is using it for PROTECTION!

 

The Tusken bowcaster was a fascinating and unique weapon. It likely won't be in JO, but it was a fun weapon to experiment with and very fitting for the Grave Tuskens, despite the fact that most players can't seem to hit anything with it. A pretty, if useless gun. But I think I'm going to strangle the next person who refers to it as "Chewie's bowcaster". IT WASN'T A WOOKIE BOWCASTER!!! IT WAS A GRAVE TUSKEN BOWCASTER FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Anyway...

 

As for the carb gun in MotS: PATHETIC. Nothing out of the Star Wars universe corresponds to it.

 

Health/Shields should correspond to armor etc. NOT army rank!!

 

Please put powerups in realistic places. Why would people just leave shield powerups or powercells in a random alley?

 

Huge weapons like missile launchers should disable run. Like in TPM, when you carried the proton missile launcher, you couldn't go past a walk.

 

While the conc rifle was fun, it really unbalanced the game. And what was with the wimpy thermal detonators?

 

Use the idea from one of the most popular mods ever created: Saber battle X. Give use Evasion. Doing a flip to avoid being shot at. That ability is awesome and goes a long way towards balancing super-powered weapons.

 

A seeker weapon like the seeker rail detonator in MotS, but alot less powerful!!

 

Like Kurgan said, the idea of weighing down the player with weapons is pretty non-fun. After all, Kyle has all these other weird force powers, why couldn't he lift a few hundred pounds of guns with ease? He's a Jedi!! Look at what Yoda could lift---a several-ton X-Wing in a few seconds.

 

PLEASE. MAKE A DOUBLE-BLADED LIGHTSABER AVAILABLE IN MULTIPLAYER.

And an option to change saber lengths would be pretty awesome as well...I mean, Kyle has a new one, why would he have made a clone of his old one?

 

 

Weapons/changes from JK/MotS I'd like to see in JKO:

 

A more powerful Bryar pistol.

 

Stormie rifle/rifle with scope ala MotS. Except, secondary fire should be stun setting and it should be more accurate, at least with the first shot, or perhaps the longer you fire the more accurate you are.

 

OR just put the scope mode on 2nd fire on the Bryar, and stun for 2nd fire in the stormie rifle.

 

More powerful thermal detonators! Thermal Ds are pathetic in JK/MotS! They're extremely underpowered. Think the thermal detonators from the TPM game; a huge blast radius with lessening damage taken as you moved outward from the blast center.

 

Flash bombs from MotS: Awesome if under-used. Keep em.

 

Mines from MotS: These are incredibly fun! All three modes are great: Manual, automatic timed, and movement-sensing.

 

Rail gun: Keep this, definitely! It's practically a symbol of the best of the Imperial weapons. It wouldn't be a JK game without it.

 

Force seeing: The thing with the map was pathetic! C'mon, make it more like the movies...perhaps you see a monocolor image through a wall or something...not a dot on a map...

 

Force pull should be somehow limited. In the films, Jedi don't just run around pulling everyone's guns away.

 

Force grip is totally overpowered. A good idea would be to make the grip release when the gripper fires a weapon (loss of concentration)

 

Saber Skill should be a force power! If JO is going to have the assign stars to things engine, you should be able to assign stars to your skill with the lightsaber! (And/or other weapons)

[SlowbieOne]

The JK stormie rifle is sadly unrealistic.

My thoughts too.

The Bryar was fine, realistic IMO except one thing: it's weakness

Also agreed. It shot very slow and it took way too many shots to kill. I don't mind the rate of fire, but they should make the bolts more powerful to make up for it. Terribly unbalanced in JK.

The Tusken bowcaster was a fascinating and unique weapon. It likely won't be in JO

I will be in JO, and it seems to have a bit of splash damage, which would compensate for its faults in JK.check this screen:

http://www.jediknightii.net/screenshots/screen017.jpg

As for the carb gun in MotS: PATHETIC. Nothing out of the Star Wars universe corresponds to it.

Ya, it was fun for a bit, but got annoying quickly. I hope they can come up with something more creative than this in JK2.

Please put powerups in realistic places. Why would people just leave shield powerups or powercells in a random alley?

I couldn't possibly agree more. There are many creative ways to get powerups that are realistic. Its so lame when you open up a secret or whatever, and it's health or something, like it was put there just for you. Really takes away from a game for me.

Use the idea from one of the most popular mods ever created: Saber battle X. Give use Evasion

I thought the evasion from SBX was the savior for saber duels. It worked well in JK because original JK lacked any type of defense with the sabers besides jumping like a fool. But I am not sure it will even be necesary in JK2. Sure I would like it in of course, but it seems as if the saber duels are going to be more straight up toe-to-toe duels. But if I was developing JK2, I would definately demand it be included.

[[SWS]Strider]

How bout force seeing works kinda like Predator's view? Where it blurs out everything but you oppenents and makes them bright red or somthing. That way if you in a room and suspect a assult you oculd use force seeing and find the location of eneimes.

 

Strider

[Nob Akimoto]

EF's holomatch, for all the belly-aching I did that it seemed too much like Q3A with ST weapons was relatively balanced.

 

IT WAS possible for a player using a Type 2 phaser to be able to beat someone with a photon burst.

 

Hopefully Raven can make something as, if not better.

 

(Though I do think inventing weapons for a game is unnecessary in SW. There's enough weapons from the EU to last a dozen games.)

[Dirth Vedar]

Just want to make some comment to some stuff I've been reading.

 

Seems like we have fans for the bryer pistol as many people are commenting how they should make it stronger, and how characters in the movies use it. Well, I think the the pistol should still be the weakest weapon, because why bother making a storm trooper rifle if the pistol is better. I think in the movies, people carry pistol for the same reason that cops don't walk around with M-16s. Pistols are convenient, and most of the time is adequate personal protection. Remember, unlike games, characters in movies don't have an invisible pouch to carry 8 different weapons. And even in the movies, you don't see people charging rooms of storm troopers with nothing but a pistol. At least I don't remember any such scene.

 

To make the pistol more useful though, so as to not just have it disappear from the game altogether after 2 minutes into the game, I agree with views which says to make the weapon a better close range weapon. Maybe make it lethal in 2 shots in close quarters, so as long as you don't have to snipe someone from across the room, it'll be adequate protection. And why not? A lot of these weapons are energy weapons right? Shouldn't their power dissapate over distance? Maybe all weapons are lethal in close range, but as the enemy stands further and further away, different weapons can inflict different amount of damage according to the distance. Couple that with different refire rates, maybe different projectile speeds, energy drain, etc., and you can make every weapon useful depending on the situation.

 

Also, there's a lot of Jedi worshipping. Comments like how a jedi should use nothing but a saber and so forth, and mowing down storm troopers, and are feared throughout, etc. Though Jedis should be feared, they also shouldn't be Gods. I don't think Kyle should be allow to run around a room full of bad guys wasting people like he is invincible with nothing but a light saber. I mean, like in Episode I, what did Obi-wan and Qui-gon do when they saw those shielded robot? The ran like heck. They don't intentionally pick fights just because they carry their light saber, they also used their brains, snuck around a lot, and did a lot of negotiating and so forth. I say the extent of the usefulness of the light saber should be something like, if you're standing still, you should be able to block 90% of the shots fired at you, and if you're moving, maybe 75% (it certainly wasn't so with JK). That way, if you're stupid enough to run into a room with 50 storm troopers, and plan to just hack your way through, you will be dead. Because if say Obi-wan was stupid enough to do that, he should be dead as well. I mean, if light sabers and force powers were so great, why did Obi-wan snuck around in the death star to deactivate the tractor beam. Maybe he should have just cut down a legion of storm troopers on his way to the tractor beam controls.

 

Also, I should bring up the fact that Kyle is not exactly a jedi, since he's had no formal training. In fact, I believe his force powers are kinda weak in the begining. I think the theme of the game is that the force powers complements what he already is, an ex-storm trooper who's primary training was in guns, he's more like a han solo character who happens to dabble in the force from time to time. The force powers only made him that much more powerful.

 

One argument made, that jedis always use their sabers, and never guns, therefore, sabers are superior, but, maybe Obi-wan doesn't use rifles because he's never been trained in it. Or maybe Jedis are just snobs, and doesn't bother themselves with guns, maybe kyle was never formally trained in light saber use so he doesn't have the same proficiency as obi-wan. I still don't think guns should be made inferior though, mainly because I don't want kyle with light saber to become like doom with god mode and berserk, where you just run around and kill everything with one hit with no harm to yourself.

 

My opinions are of course my own, and I hope I don't offend anyone if my point of view seems a little strong. No disrepect meant for the all might jedis. Plus, I tend to be more worried and preoccupied with the game play for SP more so that with MP, so my views are probably bias. But I thought I throw out a few rants to help open up discussion.

[Nemios]

About force pull... the real problem is this: in JK a disarmed enemy runs away and don't pick weapons on the floor. I think Jedis in the movies don't constantly pull weapons out from enemies just because they don't really need them and enemy could just re-pick them. I hope in JK2 enemies will be more intelligent to look for new weapons or weapons leaved by dead people.

[DeathBoLT]

Nemios: In MotS they did.

 

Dirth Vider:

I think in the movies, people carry pistol for the same reason that cops don't walk around with M-16s. Pistols are convenient, and most of the time is adequate personal protection.

There is also collateral damage issues; m-16 rounds punch holes in walls,cars, etc.; 9mm bullets don't.

 

 

Redwing:

In NF - To beat a gunner: ambush him with saber.. catch him by suprise. Frequently works. The only problem with overcoming a concusion rifle user vs. saber was that lag often allowed the gunner to escape unscathed. I doubt lag will be a huge problem in JK2.

 

In FF - To beat a gunner: Use your force powers to kill him.

 

Bowcastor - it'll be in JK2.. primary fire sports splash damage and secondary fire charges up like primary fire did in JK.

 

While the conc rifle was fun, it really unbalanced the game.

The conc rifle didn't really imbalance the game.. the other weapons were really underpowered. The ST rifle, etc. did have situations where they're useful, especially in close areas or areas of reduced mobility(i.e. water)... it'd just be nice to see more use from them.

 

As far as force seeing + map: I kinda liked having a radar effect...

[SlowbieOne]

Bowcastor - it'll be in JK2.. primary fire sports splash damage and secondary fire charges up like primary fire did in JK.

 

How do you know? How did this bit of info slip by me? We don't know barely anything about the weapons yet, except some names.

[madrebel]

hmmm so far there arent many splash damage weapons thats not cool.

 

oh well maybe mods will have cool stuff

 

[DeathBoLT]

originally posted by SlowbieOne

How do you know? How did this bit of info slip by me? We don't know barely anything about the weapons yet, except some names.

 

PC Gamer, Nov. Issue...

[Ushgarak]

Right, just to repeat myself...

 

Remember, my post was about balancing the delciate issues of making rhe game like the films and then making a playable game. I said that if Kyle was a Jedi like in the films, then he SHOULD be able to take on horsed of things, obviously with a bit of common sense.

 

But I then said it was a gameplay issue. CLEARLY the game would be no fun if it played like that- it would be like God mode, as you say. So I wasn't saying it should be like that.

 

But the sabre would still be better. I think we can be pretty sure that Jedi WOULD use ranged weapons if they were better than sabres. And to judge by their average performance, they have good reason to prefer their sabres.

 

It's just a balancing issue, is all. I still think the eaisest conclusion is that the sabre should be improved but not be made QUITE as lethal as it is in the films or there would be no challenge.

[digl]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

 

PC Gamer, Nov. Issue...

 

Would you be kind to update us on JKII?

posting all that new info found on pcgamer?

 

Maybe someone who has the mag could scan it

[DeathBoLT]

i apologize.. it wasn't the Nov. Issue of PC Gamer that stated that.. it was in the IGN preview

 

 

and besides, if that preview doesn't say it, how that stormie's being tossed around certainly does.

[Nemios]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

Nemios: In MotS they did.

 

They actually start to punch you but never pick a new weapon.

[DeathBoLT]

if they run over a gun they pick it up..

[Ushgarak]

Besides, if it really IS that easy for Jedi to pull weapons out of the hands of enemies, then Obi-Wan's fight with Jango will be pretty poor. Luckily, they can't, and it will be great.

[Redwing]

@Slowbie One: Yes, I realize that a bowcaster is going to be in JO, but not the Grave Tusken bowcaster.

 

It would be awesome to have stormies go after their guns...make it alot more realistic than them just running over to punch you

 

@ Ushgarak: They don't because it takes concentration, and they have to concentrate on not being shot. In JK and MotS, you could take hits and be fine. One idea would be to disable force pull when attacking with your saber (and take off auto-block), which would fit with the concentration idea. In JK/MotS, because of auto-block, you could pull at the same time.

[Nemios]

Originally posted by [eVe]DeathBoLT

if they run over a gun they pick it up..

 

Really? I MUST try it!