Displays of anti-patriotism

[Guest Argath]

Sorry if any of this has been posted in other threads.

 

Woman dislikes businesses displaying the American flag

 

It's scary that there are people like this out there. I could understand someone not supporting a business that displayed something anti-Arab, pro-war, or whatever, but threatening a boycott because businesses display American flags? That's just ridiculous. I wonder how eager this woman would be to ***** and moan if her friends or family were killed in the attack.

 

Her letter to the businesses seemed almost reasonable up until this point:

 

I do not support many of the policies of our government and I feel unwelcome in places where the American flag is displayed

 

Yeah, I'm sure that's just what the victims' families, friends, and supporters want to hear. They're not just showing support for injured and dead Americans, they're supporting every decision the evil government has ever made.

 

Librarian bans staff from displaying pro-American stickers

 

Supposedly this made national news; I heard about it from friends and family who live in the area, so I don't know whether that's true or not. Sorry if it's redundant, well-known info.

 

Anyway, I personally can't stand the "PC Police" to start ("don't call it a manhole, call it a personhole!"), but this just pisses me off. I just can't believe that someone would go so far as to ban "Proud to be an American" stickers because they "offend non-Americans". We're living in America, for crying out loud, what's wrong with showing patriotism? If any incredibly anal non-Americans are offended by people showing patriotism, they can always leave. It's not like people were trying to wear "Kill all the Arabs, they suck" stickers or "I hate foreigner" shirts.

 

I wonder if this lady calls up and complains every year about the St. Patrick's Day parades around the nation; they might offend the non-Irish, of course.

 

[ September 29, 2001: Message edited by: Argath ]

[Guest Kurgan]

In my opinion, the 1st amendment applies both to showing your patriotism and NOT showing your patriotism. You can even gather peacefully to criticize what the government is doing.

 

There's no law that says you HAVE to fly a flag outside your house or business (well unless maybe you're a federal institution). So it's a matter of personal choice. Most people that can, have chosen to display some kind of flag or emblem in support of the US (and even if you have problems with the US, you can use the emblem for the ideal, after all no nation is perfect... since each is made up of imperfect people).

 

I think in this case it's just silly. If these people would rather not display the American flag, that's fine, but they shouldn't try to take away the rights of others to force them to hold the same view.

 

Seems like common sense...

 

I think you're right on here Arg. I mean, I know it's a logical fallacy to just say "love it or leave it" but I think here it might almost be appropriate. If this person hates the US so much and is offended by patriotism displays, she should go someplace else. There's some fine nations to the North and South of us, with just some paperwork and fees (and oaths, etc), and you're all set!.

 

While I don't like to go out of my way to try to offend people, I think the whole "politically correct" deal is pretty stupid. There's a lot of terrible things in the world to get offended by besides mere words or flags (and better yet, do something about).

 

The other thing is that some of these folks read-into the symbols more than is being said. A flag can have many meanings, but some of these people take the most EXTREME interpretation possible and then use that to claim that they are being offended. An example would be to say that:

 

1) the color black represents death in many cultures

 

2) death is a depressing subject for many people

 

3) Therefore people should be banned from wearing black clothing (driving black vehicles, using the color for stuff, etc), as it offends me.

 

[update] This could also be applied to something like the Swastika which most people associate with the Nazis, genocide, fascism, and racism. However the symbol itself has been used for untold centuries before Nazis appropriated it for their cause, and is still used today by many religious groups that have absolutely nothing to do with Nazism or racial supremist theories. But people who are ignorant of those facts may see the symbol and just assume it's one thing, when it's in fact another. But is it necessary when displaying a symbol to explain it to ignorant people in order to not offend them?

 

There is also a thing called tact, where for example, it might be inappropriate to use a certain symbol because you KNOW FULL WELL that a large number of people are going to misconstrue it as something offensive. However, free speech would seem to indicate that it's more important that people can speak their minds than that people should be protected from being offended (prior restraint).

 

According to all the rules of ettiquette and protocol that exist in use in the USA, the most appropriate thing to do when a national tragedy occurs IS to give speeches sympathetic to those who have suffered, help those in need, and fly the flag at half-mast. It does not mean that a person needs to yell racial slurs, or advocate nuking entire countries. The people in the articles seem to think that if you fly the flag, you're automatically saying we need to bomb innocent people and wage an all out war for revenge, and that if you DON'T fly the flag, you're going to be tarred and feathered as a traitor to your country. That's illogical, and fallacious thinking to the extreme. In a free society, dissent speech is tolerable, as long as it is peaceful, and thus far I don't see anyone's free speech being taken away because they disagree, including these people. Incidentally, the extremes that they presented are not the official statements of our government leaders. They may be the opinions of some, but they are not (yet, thankfully) official policy. So these are conclusions that are being jumped to.

 

If we didn't have free speech, they would be dead or in jail for disagreeing with the majority already, right?

 

Kurgan

 

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

[StormHammer]

Yeah, I have to say that I pretty much agree with those sentiments too. It goes back to that interview wardz talked about, where a muslim man in the UK apparently told someone he didn't think of himself as British.

 

Well, why live here then? If he can't abide the thought of becoming British, and living by our laws and values, why come here in the first place? It's a pretty big planet.

 

And don't get me wrong here...that's just an example, and I'm not targetting muslims.

 

I don't care how diverse or multi-cultural our society becomes, as long as the fundamental ethics and morality don't get worn away in the process of integration. After all, values are not tied to soil, but to the human spirit. Many different types of cultures have come and gone on the soil we call home. People across the whole range of cultural diversity should recognise that segregating themselves or their values is not going to build a more integrated society - but rather a land of disparate communities that will remain tied to the prejudices of the past.

 

You may not accept someone else's values, but you should respect their right to have values other than your own - except when it leads to extremist atrocities demonstrated on September 11th.

[OnlyOneCanoli]

Making fun of Canada is always a great source of U.S. patriotism.

 

 

edit: BAH! Whoever runs the site changed the description. It use to say something to the effect of, Canada sends its largest naval vessel to aid the U.S. war effort.

 

[ September 30, 2001: Message edited by: OnlyOneCanoli ]

[bsbuckeye21]

Hehe, good one Canoli. (Canadians, feel free to get us Yanks back if it's funny. )

[matt--]

LoL...That's patriotism at its best!

[Guest Rogue15]

that gun looks fake to me, is it supposed to scare the enemy away?

[OnlyOneCanoli]

Well if they made a large ship with a gun to ship size ratio like that, Canada would have an awesome navy.