About force choke

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Heh welp I doubt you'll have much luck with that in JK2. In JK we had the zone and you had a lot more control over who you play with.

 

Much (in not almost all) of the MP gaming in JK2 will take place on PUBLIC dedicated servers. Basically you're gonna be stuck with whomever enters the game. Don't be surpised if you and another person are trying to have a movie-type saber battle when a competative player swoops out of nowhere, and kills you both before you realize what happened.

 

I wonder if this mixing of the competative and casual communities will force more casual players to become more hard core or to quit MP.

[qtseng]

Simon, yes there will be stances and acrobatic moves, but what's the use of that when you can't "press the button at the right time?"

 

Part of video/computer games is about hand-eye coordination, and many here would agree with me that it's a skill.

 

I know what you're trying to get to, but it seems you're being rather misleading...

[Chanke4252]

The only problem with the Zone is that you dont know the people, when i played i had a bunch of people on a list who liked to play the same way, without force choke. The only problem with that is that you either had to lock the game or severely limit force powers.

 

Now dont get me wrong, I hate running around at 90mph swinging secondary attack and I have my gripes about that, but at least there is risk included, unlike the JK1 force choke.

 

The only problem I have with competative players in JK1 is that they tend to overuse force choke if its available. I dont like the fact that they run around at 90mph swinging sabers, but I can live with that. As long as there is some sort of skill or thought involved then its ok with me.

 

SUMMARY:

Force choke involves no risk and takes little to no skill to use, therefore, it sucks. The only way it sucks anymore than it does normally is if a hardcore player logs into a game and overuses it (which happens often).

[Redwing]

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

Heh welp I doubt you'll have much luck with that in JK2. In JK we had the zone and you had a lot more control over who you play with.

 

Much (in not almost all) of the MP gaming in JK2 will take place on PUBLIC dedicated servers. Basically you're gonna be stuck with whomever enters the game. Don't be surpised if you and another person are trying to have a movie-type saber battle when a competative player swoops out of nowhere, and kills you both before you realize what happened.

 

I wonder if this mixing of the competative and casual communities will force more casual players to become more hard core or to quit MP.

 

---Yeah right!! More likely it would just cause casual players to play with other casual players alone and stay away from the self-labeled "hardcore" bunch.

 

If JK2 is to be the greatest success it can be, it should be put together so that none of the powers can really be used in a "non-Star Wars" way (which is quite hard to define, unfortunately for the devs---) and so that the hardcore gamers will be able to play to be the best of the best at the game, while what they do still mimics a "Star Wars style", and the casual gamer, while still being beaten, will be beaten in a "Star Warsy" manner.

 

If Raven can pull that off, I think that most everyone would be quite happy.

 

EDIT: I just remembered, that the "Jedi Duel" game mode will probably be favored by people who want to act out Star Wars.

[Chanke4252]

redwing, thats possibly one of the most intelligent posts ive seen on this topic and I agree with it in every way.

[Lucky]

well, im drunk.

 

 

good preface.

 

 

first off from the point of view and perspective of this post, as u all have made a bazillion points already: grip takes mana in JK, absorb swipes that mana and dumps it in whoever yer chokins mana globe. yay.

 

2ndly, grip and all the reticle based force powers are deceptively hard to use. Its basically like locking a rocket in UT. It can be *hard* at high speeds with someone who understands yer field of perception. Also there are queing issues and client side detection thingers that make it difficult.

 

Inexperience with JK is a great excuse for making crazy claims. I'm not gonna fault any of you kiddies, cause you honestly don't know how complex somthing as seemingly simple as JK can get.

 

However, you also see how u can get someone as open minded as DB to get all pissy when you make such postulations. Basically calling grip 'skilless' and 'cheap' is equating a FFer's skill with those elements to a big fat 0. Now, you might not understand why they're difficult to use, and you might not care, but respect the time and effort some of us have bothered to put into JK.

 

This is not to say that you should simply accept what folks say because they claim to have experience =P make em explain it and get the info from more than one source if u haven't heard it before. A lot of 'l33t' players have no clue whats going on behind the scenes, especially if their misconceived notions seem to explain what they see. A lot of times its *just* skill and not thought that sets them apart from the casual player. Since this is a medium of rational thought and not either a twitch fest or a starwars convention, I think we're all on an equal geekyness footing.

 

 

JK2 will encompass all our skill levels and not cater to any specific group. Mingle and be merry, above all be open minded so as to not miss anything interesting.

 

 

Anders

[Redwing]

 

Here's hoping you're right about that last statement.

[Chanke4252]

once you hit the grip button, about half a second later the little target thing comes up and all you hav eto do is release the button. in UT when you lock a rocket, you can avoid the rocket, i have no problem with that. But in JK, when you lock force grip, you cannot avoid it, if you could avoid it then i wouldnt have a problem with it. You can stay out of that person's point of view in JK, but I get a feeling that that is not how jk was designed to be played. Get sober and repost.

[Lucky]

drrrr, yer not taking lag or the range of grip into account, or the queing. bah, i think you totally misunderstood what i was saying. I'll try again.

 

 

its your proximty to dead center that determines how long it takes to get a lock. When a person moves towards you and then away, if you get a lock and they've dipped in and out of yer range with grip, the damage will que and hit them just a tad but not stop them or continue for very long.

 

So you have to account for lag with grip and thats not possible. Essentially a good gripper moves with his opponent in such a way that the damge will que up when the opponent is still within range, thus freezing him. If you don't do this, if you just stand still, yer grip was worthless and you've cost him 10 health.

 

I hope that clarrifies. yay, bud light.

 

 

Anders

[Lucky]

hrmph, realized u prolly dont get what i mean by 'lag' either.

 

 

all the actions are initiated on yer computer and then sent to everyone else in the game seperately and not thru a central server at which point they're displayed and go into effect.

 

So if you grip someone it will take a half a second to get there and go into effect, once it gets there it qill que backwards from the time u did it and add that much time of damage into it. However, if in the time it took for yer grip message to get to yer opponent and start gripping, he moved out of yer range, yer lock has already broken and he just lost a lil health.

 

The advantage to grip is to immobilize people. nothing else. You can easily use lag to break the lock, and good players no how to use this and are thus very hard to get any kind of reticle lock on.

 

Lemme also say this, the advantage to lightside in ff sabers is the ability to stand nearly still and rely on NF skills. Choosing lightside severely limits the usefulness of darkside force except for the ability to push people around with destruction and to stop em with grip. Neither one of these can kill you. It breaks it on down to NF.

 

 

Anders

[Chanke4252]

We're not talking about lag issues or how it comes into play. We are talking about how a feature would come in when there is little to no lag involved. Lag varies from person to person so its not really a major source of conversation.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

First off, Redwing... You obviously have no idea how the Q3/JK2 (UT and T2 are the same) MP scene is. There is NO WAY for a dedicated server to be newbie only. A dedicated server sends it's IP and info to a master server that is happy to tell ANYONE with the client (ie the game) where it is. There is no way you can keep hardcore players from joining a game over the net.

 

Secondly, Chanke... There is no such thing as "over using" a power that is affective. If you don't like it, don't play.

[Kurgan]

While it's perfectly fine to dislike something in a game (obviously there's no accounting for personal taste) I take issue with some of your claims, from my playing experience (JK and MotS for some 3+ years).

 

WARNING: RANT AHEAD! (heh)

 

The newbie anti grip stuff came up a long time ago when myself and everyone who hated it stopped playing.

 

I would think that if you hated a game it would be natural to stop playing it. But not everyone who stopped playing the game did so for the same reasons. Of course some will try to argue (and I don't agree with them) that you only hated the game because you didn't have the patience to put in the time necessary to master it (ie: "you only quit because you sucked"). But then if the question is what you liked or disliked about the game, nothing I can say will change that. However, I would like to refute the claim that grip somehow unbalanced the game or was impossible to deal with effectively.

 

 

The problem with grip in JK1 is that there was no risk in using it.

 

In order to use grip, one has to get close... which means they can be hit with close range attacks (namely the saber, lightning, etc). It is also much easier to target someone when they are close to you (blinding has a great range, but most force powers only target at fairly close range). The closer you are, the shorter your reaction time has to be (both for victim and attacker). Thus grip puts you in a position where you better know what you're doing, else you leave yourself wide open to being hit (including by grip from the other player).

 

Also there is the issue of mana usage. All force powers use up mana, so that is always a factor. Mana used for grip cannot be used for something else (unless you get the surge, in which case it negates all mana limitation discussion, except perhaps in the case of Defense in MotS).

 

You also run the risk that if you use grip, the person will just counter it, which means that mana was wasted (if it does no damage).

 

You would always hit and you never suffered any penalty when it was countered.

 

Wrong. First of all a person cannot always be targetted successfully (when they are out of sight, invisible, are using the super shield, moving too fast, etc. Second, if it was countered, the mana used on the power was wasted. For example if I have protection on, and you use grip on me, I lose nothing, my movement isn't even impeded, but you lose mana from using grip, plus you are now closer to me, so I have a chance to hit you while you're trying to target me.

 

When you shoot you lessen your ammo whether you hit or not. When you force destruct you lessen your force pool. When you do any of the other offensive force powers you will suffer a penalty whether you hit them or not, but not with force choke.

 

Wrong. If you hit somebody with grip, but it has no effect (such as with protection or a super shield) then your mana is depleted. Mana is only lost if you successfully hit a person with grip (whether it does actual damage or not). The same could be said for chain lightning, pull, blind, or any other targetted force power. If you're saying all force powers should have the potential to "miss" and use up force mana with every attempt, that's something else entirely.

 

Because of this, force choke became a way for people to damage others without any risk or skill involved.

 

The skills required to use grip are the following:

 

1) One must get close enough to the target to initiate grip.

 

2) After initiating grip, one must maintain the proper distance to keep the victim in sight, and avoid being hit by their inevitable counter attack attempts.

 

3) Whilst distracted by their focus on one opponent, they must also be aware of any other opponents around them who could sieze the opportunity to steal their kill or nail them while they're otherwise occupied.

 

4) The attacker must be prepared to anticipate and counter the methods that the victim will use to prevent the grip from damaging him (ie: shooting/slashing back, using persuasion, blinding, protection, absorb, speed/jump, etc).

 

5) The attacker must accurately assess the amount of mana needed to accomplish their goal (ie: kill their opponent) and failing that with the amount of mana needed for grip, they must be ready with an attack to supplement it. On average, Force Grip does about 80 % damage before it wears off, if memory of the Force Faq serves.

 

The so called "Super/Sith Grip" bug/exploit/strategy tactic whatever you want to call it, will continue to grip the opponent until they die or the attack runs out of mana (thus protection and super shield are even more effective because they also render the attacker mana-less). The only thing to do would be to use the force surge in combination with Super/Sith Grip, but then they would still not do any damage and would be useless against say someone using Protection/Super Shield (assuming the attacker also used seeing and avoided being hit, to avod the other counters to grip).

 

6) To add to another problem, grip is only capable of attacking one victim at a time, and unlike the saber hit, or a stack of mines, a single attack is usually not enough to kill an opponent, but a somewhat sustained, focused attack. Thus all the while, the attacker is vulnerable to being sniped or stabbed in the back.

 

When you saber duel you have to get close to them to hit, which means that they also have a chance to hit you with their saber as well (risk/reward).

 

While saber range is somewhat shorter than grip range, the same holds true for grip. You have to get relatively close to the victim (and maintain a proper distance) in order to be effective. From long range, you can be shot at and have destruction thrown at you or you can be blinded, long before you get into grip range. Once in grip range, other attacks can be employed (namely one of if not THE deadliest weapon in the hands of experience.. the saber).

 

Now i would not have a problem with it if there was a way to counter it before it effected you.

 

Yes. Absorb prevents damage from grip before it hits you. Of course grip will still at least slow down your movement, so I won't use that as an example. If you are invisible due to persuasion, then you cannot be gripped, unless the attacker first uses force seeing (again, further depleting his mana pool). Also force powers can be combined. So if the victim is using both persuasion and absorb, then the attack must keep seeing on, while also making sure he combines his (non-damaging, but movement impeding) grip with another attack (usually the saber) to finish off his victim. If the victim escapes.. his mana is wasted.

 

If you grip somebody, and they turn on Protection, the grip damage and immobilizing effect IMMEDIATELY stop, but you'll notice the sound effects continue. Thus it has the effect of draining the attackers mana, while the victim is unaffected. A super shield renders the person virutally invulnerable, so no immobilizing effect would mean anything, unless the attacker was trying to

 

a) push the victim off a ledge, which would give them a self kill

b) stack a bunch of mines by them, killing them through the shield, but risking their own death in the process (and much more easily too since the attacker likely doesn't have protection himself, or if he did, if it was MotS, he would lack the mana to do so, unless he had the surge).

 

A Protected user is thus immune to grip. However the attacker will use grip as if it were a normal victim and his own mana will be wasted with every attempt (much more so with Super/Sith Grip).

 

You can counter everything else before they actually effect you (except force deadly sight which costs mana whether you hit or not). The only way to do that is to not let the other person see you, which would mean that you wouldnt be able to play the game as it was intended.

 

I'm afraid you're wrong here as well. Deadly Sight can be countered before it hits you by Persuasion (nobody can combine seeing and deadly sight except in MotS.. and notice that in Mots this is very difficult to do since Deadly Sight and Protection both use more mana than they do in JK, so a surge is necessary to combine). You can also prevent someone from using Deadly Sight by blinding them (a blinded person cannot see a target, thus Deadly Sight would not be able to be activated). Having force absorb on would also prevent Deadly Sight from doing anything more than charging up the victim's mana (and wasting the mana of the attacker). The Super shield would render Deadly Sight utterly usless.

[Kurgan]

[cont'd]

 

As to the game "being intended" one way or not is speculation. Why would the developers, if they wanted only face to face, visible combat, put in positions in levels that were ideal to sniping? Why would they introduce a power that renders the user virutally invisible? Why would they put in long-range weapons into the game? Why would they put in mines, which render the possibility that an entire battle can be decided without any of the players ever physically seeing each other?

 

It seems more likely, in light of these factors, that the JK/MotS developers figured that <i>stealth</i> tactics would be an option for all players who chose to make use of them.

 

I myself greatly enjoy playing "honorable" Jedi one-on-one saber duels, however, I recognize and freely admit that there are numerous other styles of play possible in the games that can be just as much fun, if not more fun for other people. Some people even dislike the saber dueling (citing things such as "randomness" "lag" or "cheapness with the z-swing") and prefer other game modes. Implying that saber dueling is all there is to JK multiplayer is to deny the plethora of options the developers have built purposefully into the game, and the thousands of players who actively make use of them.

 

This is Jedi Knight after all.. not <i>Bushido Blade</i>.

 

I'd also like to quickly add that Force Defense in MotS seemed to have a limitation, it appeared that if the Defense user had the surge, the power was treated as if you had full mana (not infinite mana, as with all other force powers) thus a defense did it's job (lessening the effect of force powers, but not completely negating them) but only until they had used up a portion of mana equivalent to a full pool. I have not been able to verify this 100%, but I've read it in several places, and I notice for example that a level 4 defense user is not immune to force powers. But Defense DOES lessen the effects of grip, thus meaning even more mana or an effective counter attack is needed to finish off the victim. Defense is the only power that is "always on" but only drains mana when the person is being attacked with the force.

 

I think that these are the reasons that myself and other people, who you call n00bs, have a problem with it. You never heard this before because we either stopped playing most public multiplayer games that had full force, or we stopped playing all together.

 

I hate the term "newbie" (or 'n00b' as the young people are calling it nowadays) because it is so often misused. I always thought it properly referred to a neophyte.. someone who as newly initiated into something. Somebody who was not entirely knowledgable due to lack of experience. However, I usually see people use it as a simple generic insult to anyone they don't like, or who isn't as skilled at a game as they are (it's entirely theoretically possible a person can play a game for years and still not be as skilled as another person). Thus I try to avoid the term, unless I'm explicitly referring to someone who lacks experience (Ie: "I'm a newbie when it comes to using Windows 2000").

 

Your reasons are fine to explain why you don't like something, however my responses should open up the possiblity that your reasons were formed from incomplete or inaccurate data, that further experience would likely have shown you.

 

I suggest those interested should review the "Force FAQ" (available in several places, including Gamefaqs.com) and the Jediknight.net hosted site "Hisss' Rebel Strategy Guide" (http://www.jediknight.net/hiss/) for information on countering, and pros/cons of various force powers.

 

Also, I hope I didn't offend you in any way with my statements, I admit that when I played my first few games of JK multiplayer I was totally "0wned" by people who made good use of the force. I thought it was the cheapest thing in the world. But instead of quitting the game, I began to train, and try to learn from people who knew how to do these things, and eventually I was able to learn enough to be able to hold my own in battle using many of these same tactics, and many I had "invented" myself.

 

If JK2 follows in JK's footsteps, it is likely it will share a similar level of depth with regard to the force/counter force and weapon/counter weapon tactics built into the multiplayer module. This will encourage long-term play and development of tactics, in addition to varying player styles (notice they are segregating Dark and Light Force, already laying out the foundations for multiple styles). They key is variety.. and the key to mastery is to immerse yourself in that variety and be open to the various possiblities. But if you don't enjoy that, it's probably not the game for you...

 

(Apologies for the length, or repeating anything anybody else said, I just wanted to be thorough)

 

Kurgan

[Chanke4252]

why i disagree with your post.

 

 

1. close range is different for everyone, but to me it means almost close enough to be hit with a melee attack, to you it may mean all the way across the level, and i understand that grip has its range issues, but you dont have to get into close range to use it.

 

2. Secondly, grip does more than 80% of the damage will full force powers enabled and uncountered.

 

3. It does not deplete your mana with absorb on unless you keep looking at them. If you look away it turns it off and you lose very little mana.

[Kurgan]

1. close range is different for everyone, but to me it means almost close enough to be hit with a melee attack, to you it may mean all the way across the level, and i understand that grip has its range issues, but you dont have to get into close range to use it.

 

In other words "close range = saber range" since there are only three melee attacks in the game, and the saber is the only one that hits any farther away than actual physical contact of the polygons (required to punch or strike with the butt of the carbonite gun).

 

My point was that with grip you still had to get a lot closer to hit the person than you would if you were using blinding, or destruction, or deadly sight, or any gun, etc. Thus, grip puts you at more of a risk than these other long range attacks. Do you see the logic in my reasoning?

 

Most of the time, in order to grip a person, you get within saber range, which means you are vulnerable to saber hits (saber throw is a whole 'nother story).

 

2. Secondly, grip does more than 80% of the damage will full force powers enabled and uncountered.

 

Fair enough, however, I pointed out that multiple counters do exist, and that the grip strategy is not foolproof as a result. Are we to assume that nobody will use the force when faced with an attacker fond of using grip? Even a person who somehow is incapable of hitting the force buttons can press the fire key and hit the attacker, breaking off the grip attack.

 

3. It does not deplete your mana with absorb on unless you keep looking at them. If you look away it turns it off and you lose very little mana.

 

Fine, but by the same token, if you are not looking at him, then the victim will not be affected by an imobilization either. Plus looking away will mean that you are momentarily distracted. That split second that loses sight of your opponent could mean the difference between them escaping, or worse, killing you. With absorb, the mana they gain can be used in other ways, while the mana you LOST gripping them cannot be gained back that quickly.

[Kurgan]

Also, to counter Obi's assertions.. you neglect to mention a few key things:

 

1) Despite notions of "honor" they can still use protection.

 

2) Despite the "difficulty" of using jump/speed, it can still be done.

 

3) You assume the person is a "saber only lightsider."

 

Now let's take this scenario... let's assume a light jedi is being all "Honorable" and running around only with the saber and his light side powers (and refusing to use protection). Now let's say he encouters a jedi that likes to use grip on him. What does he do?

 

1) Whine. Continue to stick to his "Honor" and refuse to use non saber weapons or protection.

 

2) Decide that since his opponent is not going to follow the rules he made for himself, that he should dispense (if temporarily) the notion of "honor" and opt to gather some guns, use protection (even rejoin with a protection character to counter the grip), etc.

 

I will say right now that I have beaten, as a light side jedi, without protection, many dark jedi who used grip on me. I also often opted to use protection because it made countering grip pathetically easy. However, I would hesitate to say it made the entire battle easy.

 

In JK, choosing protection means that you give up all neutral powers. That means you have no defense against blinding, you have to strain your eyes looking for particles floating around (because of persuasion) and you can't move around quickly with jump/speed. This makes you vulnerable to mines (since you can't detect them with seeing, speed over them, or use jump to take shortcuts over mined areas, although you can use rocket jump.. the drawback being every jump weakens your protection bubble and uses up a bit of ammo). Protection also makes you a highly visible target due to the noise and swirling particles around you (no chance for stealth now, even if you combine with persuasion).

 

In MotS, a Jedi could combine neutral powers with Protection, but Protection used up far more mana, thus it was very difficult to combine it with any power, without leaving yourself completely drained of mana (and thus unable to counter other powers) unless you hogged the surges. In addition, the carbonite gun went straight through protection and the Scout's Sniper Rifle (I can't say for certain about the regular scoped ST rifle anyone could pick up) still had the effect of "pushing" the victim back, thus making it possible to knock protection users off ledges, or into traps with well placed shots. The carbonite gun, like fists (which were increased in speed for MotS) did direct damage right through protection.

 

In both games, Protection was highly supseptable to multiple explosive and impact damage, meaning that stacked mines and multiple sticky rails could do serious damage, taking down the bubble rapidly. Sabers of course weakened the shield extensively, making it difficult to survive multiple hits. In JK, Protection used up a much smaller amount of mana, so it was possible to start the shield back up relatively soon after it was taken down, but not so in MotS.

 

But that's a seperate issue. The point is, grip had a lot of counters, again, using your same logic, I could say that blinding and persuasion were cheap if their victims refused to use force seeing (a "cheap" power that negates stealth), or mines if their victims refused to use seeing, speed, or jump (making the mines almost impossible to avoid hitting by accident).

 

A person who intends to win a game with "honor" when their opponents have no such illusions and are of equal or greater skill with THEIR tactics, is what I'd call "suicidal." ; )

 

 

Let's put it another way. I may feel like playing the game only with the saber and without force powers that will help me, but as soon as my opponents show that they have no plans to follow this same pattern (and assuming my goal is still to win), all bets are off.

 

 

In regards to lag, I don't think this is a valid argument. Lag affects EVERYTHING not just grip or the ability to counter it. It affects things in different ways true, but there's no way to accurately predict what will and won't be affected for different people. If you find the lag is so bad that grip is ineffective, then you either have to find another tactic, or find a better server. That's all there is to it. I've played in games where the lag was so bad guns didn't hit their targets, and even with splash damage, my enemies never seemed to die. I'm sure we've all ready about people denouncing saber dueling as being "impossible" over the internet due to "lag." So lag doesn't help that anti-grip argument in this case, since it's actually an argument against ALL force powers and weapons.

 

<b>[update]</b>

Okay, perhaps I misunderstood the "saber only" thing. I assumed this player was in a level that had other weapons available but the person was just being "honorable" and not using them (the whole "honor of protection" thing distracted me into that mindset). ; )

 

So, let's say you're on a saber only level where no other weapons exist but fists and saber (in reality, even the "saber only" levels in JK usually feature the bryar pistol as well incidentally, though in MotS this is not the case). There is still the fact that a person getting close enough to grip you can be gripped themselves and is likely in saber range, meaning you can hit them, and break out of it.

 

However, if you do have other weapons available, a very good tactic to try is this... whilst being gripped, force jump into the air, and then FIRE DOWNWARD with the concussion rifle. The splash damage is so huge that they will likely be hit unless they knew what you were planning to do ahead of time. This serves the dual purpose of both freeing you from grip, and preventing you from taken the damage you normally would from a close range concussion shot (incidentally, a close range SECONDARY fire shot from a conc would both be unblockable by the attacker's saber, and not damage the user). I figure a similar tactic could be employed with any explosive weapon (rails, destruction, etc).

 

Yet another factor to add to the mix that I forgot before... the DISCIPLE (level 6) who can use a combination of dark and lightside powers (though with fewer stars than a level 7 or 8 jedi aand without access to the high level powers).

 

Thermal detonators are also harder to pull (since you have to pull each one individually) and can't be blocked (though the aiming can be tricky). Flash bombs, as used in MotS can also blind your attacker, preventing further grip use for a short time.

[Guest Obi]

<font color=cbcbff> I think some of you use the term "newbie" a little too loosely. Preferring to enjoy the game rather than cheap/mousejerk/hack/gloat your way to victory does not make you a newbie. You forget for challenge sake some of us "newbies" choose to play the game the way it was meant be played and not using every cheap trick/easy route there is just to win. Many Light siders play light because they have moral limitations(some of you "1337" folk might not understand the term "moral" but it applies to not liking to use certain techniques because they feel it takes the fun out of it and is just a downright dirty way to play) or because they just want to play on the more challenging side. It doesn't make anyone a newbie if they don't agree with being "elite" and full of yourself while putting down others and gloating every time you win that you "own" someone else. That is pathetic.

[Redwing]

Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt

First off, Redwing... You obviously have no idea how the Q3/JK2 (UT and T2 are the same) MP scene is. There is NO WAY for a dedicated server to be newbie only. A dedicated server sends it's IP and info to a master server that is happy to tell ANYONE with the client (ie the game) where it is. There is no way you can keep hardcore players from joining a game over the net.

 

Secondly, Chanke... There is no such thing as "over using" a power that is affective. If you don't like it, don't play.

 

You're right, I have no idea. I only have experience with the JK/MotS system, where the host can boot a player who isn't playing by the rules set by him or her. I don't really even know what a dedicated server is, to be honest. Since it seems JK2 will have Zone support, I assumed that would turn out as it did with Jk/MotS.

 

But I have to point out that since JK2 hasn't even been released yet, you can only be assuming yourself what the scene will be like. But I myself can certainly say I hope there aren't as many "leet" players on the scene who act like total jerks and waltz around gloating and demeaning other players who haven't had the time or opportunity to get as good as they have. If I have to point fingers, you are giving alot of people that impression, whether you intend to or not...and I'm sure you don't. So try lightening up a bit, please?

 

Now to read Kurgan's post...wow talk about Force long posting there

[DeathBoLT]

I think some of you use the term "newbie" a little too loosely. Preferring to enjoy the game rather than cheap/mousejerk/hack/gloat your way to victory does not make you a newbie. You forget for challenge sake some of us "newbies" choose to play the game the way it was meant be played and not using every cheap trick/easy route there is just to win. Many Light siders play light because they have moral limitations(some of you "1337" folk might not understand the term "moral" but it applies to not liking to use certain techniques because they feel it takes the fun out of it and is just a downright dirty way to play) or because they just want to play on the more challenging side. It doesn't make anyone a newbie if they don't agree with being "elite" and full of yourself while putting down others and gloating every time you win that you "own" someone else. That is pathetic.

 

Re-read all of Kurgan's posts under this topic. There, you will find that he's discussed everything you've just stated and proven it wrong.

[Kurgan]

"newbie" and "elite" to me are apples and oranges almost.

 

Newbie: someone who lacks experience

 

Elite: someone who has a decent amount of skill, maybe even an excessive amount of skill, with regards to the people he has the potential of playing.

 

Skill: the ability to do something well, ie: with a high degree of success. Proficiency based on experience and practice.

 

Tactic: a way of doing something. move/counter move in response to situations and events.

 

A Newbie could be quite skilled (odd as that may sound). Let's say most people have not yet mastered the game, he could still win a lot, if he was good at certain things. Let's say nobody knows how to use any force power but grip, and he's really good with grip, but he hasn't been playing long. So he's going to have skills.

 

But, I would say that in order to be "elite" you could not be a newbie, since it would take time to gather that much skill and superior tact in the game.

 

I mean a player can be "elite" but then they meet somebody who is ten times better than them and they get beaten very badly. I've played games against people who were so good that I got NEGATIVE points, while they had positive. But then I've played many more games where I quickly dominated the game, or played "give and take" with the other top scorer.

 

That is a valid concern of the "casual" vs. "competative" gamers. I think the point WD and others are trying to make here is that there are people who play Star Wars games <b> primarily because they want to experience the movies</b>. Ie: they want to role play in the star wars universe. These people will be less concerned with using every tactic necessary in order to win.

 

The casual gamers who only want to see force powers/weapons/whatevers as seen in the movies or want only to play "honorably" (as defined in the movies) may be quite good, but they are choosing to give up certain tactics and skills in order to achieve their roleplaying fantasy (nothing wrong with that). But this means that they can't blame other players who choose to utilize all their skills to win. In short, they are putting themselves purposely at a disadvantage, and the competative players are not to blame for the casual gamers' choices on how to play.

 

Thus, casual gamers would be forced either to bite the bullet and accept losing often to competative gamers, or to avoid competative gamers altogether and stick with like minded players, to avoid frustration.

 

Now who are these casual gamers? They might be newbies, they might be skilled or even elite, but:

These are the folks who, will have their slow, drawn out saber duels (which are perfectly fine, I have played many of them myself, they can be quite fun). But these people cannot expect other players, who are trying to win, using all tactics available (short of using illegal cheats) to be forced to obey those same rules.

 

Now I should say that being elite also requires you remember your tactics enough over time (you don't get "rusty") and that you continue to practice to maintain your level of skill. An elite player could become rusty and appear to lack skill until he "got it back again" (that happened to me many times when I would not play the game for a month or more, then come back to it). A Newbie will cease to be one after a certain amount of experience. At what point does he cease to be a newbie? I can't tell you, but I can guarentee if you've been playing the game for three years, you're not a "newbie" even if you're the worst player in the world.

 

A "Casual gamer" doesn't have to be a permanet position either. I was elite in my day (I bet if I joined a game right now I'd get my butt handed to me though, considering I haven't played in so long), but even in my prime of JK/MotS skills, I would often take a break from competative gaming to play casually. That was lots of fun, I had many great saber duels, complete with witty dialouge and flashy moves to impress my dueling partners. But the point is, I realized I was holding back stuff I could have used to win in those situations. The entire game was setup to allow competative gaming, and as a result, one has to realize that one can't force that on everyone.

 

If you bought the game soley for casual gaming, you're going to have to accept the fact that not everyone will share your opinions or respect them.

 

I mean if you host a server, and you say "one on one honor duels only" and somebody starting speeding around with the concussion rifle and destructing everyone, you can kick them (and you'd be right to do it as the server admin), but most public servers likely won't have that kind of fine tuned control. The options will be set, and the game will go on, the admin only pausing to kick a cheater, or somebody who's lagging the server really badly (assuming the admin is even watching the game at the moment.. keep in mind dedicated servers need not have the host actually physically in the game).

 

My arguments were in favor of JK/MotS, mainly because people were making the argument that grip shouldn't be this or that in JK2 BECAUSE it "sucked" or was "cheap" in JK. If I could make a case that it didn't suck or wasn't cheap in JK, then wouldn't that cast doubt on the assumption that it must be different in JK2, or it would also be "cheap" or "suck"?

 

I'm certain that even the most elite of elite JK/MotS players will have plenty to learn and will not automatically be as elite as they were before going into JK2. They will be newbies just like everyone else (newbies: lacking in experience) and will have to learn how to play the game and the differences.

 

However, many of the same skills will be applicable, no matter what, such as the hand eye coordination, and the understanding of tactics (ie: not assuming everybody is going to be honorable and thus allowing you to drop your guard).

 

With an "Arena" type dueling mode, I'm sure the "movie role-player" type people can have their fun, but at the same time, they should allow the more competative minded players to have their's as well.

[Zx2]

jk2 should make it fairly easy to counter choke

 

i.e. say you're in a lvl akin to votjt (tower)

ur on the land pad and ur opponent has u in a grip, there are several things which may occur:

 

1.your opponent goes flying from the landpad courtesy of force push

2.your opponent rushes towards you and is beheaded by ur thrown saber (because u cant block from behind, so when ur saber comes back itll take off his head; if he turns around to block, loss of eyesight and the grip is broken)

3. you force jump out of it

4. you choke him, so both of u r hoverin in mid air, slowly dying

[DeathBoLT]

i suspect the lifting them in the air effect is not going to be present in mp..

[Redwing]

I'd be surprised, since they haven't mentioned that, and it seems kinda major...

 

More likely there's a more effective counter.

[WD_ToRMeNt]

I think Grip is a MP only force power and grip will be able to immobalize you because it lifts you off the ground (sounds cool).

 

Let me explain skill levels a bit.

 

Newbie: This does have many meanings. It's a person who is either new to the game or just isn't very good. There TONS of people who have played for 2+ years and still have no clue.

 

Average: Knows more and is more experienced then a newbie, but still couldn't maintain a score of more then 0 against an expert/elite.

 

Good: A person who has "got the idea." He/she doesn't waste force stars on blind/persuasion/throw/lightning and would laugh at protection/deadly site. They should know better to use anything other then conc/rail/saber for weapons. They also prolly use force speed all the time and know a few moves.

 

Expert: This is where it gets intresting. Experts know a great deal about the lag system. They also know a great deal of moves and jumps in the levels the good players like (Oasis/BGJ). They will always be using seeing + map in FF games and they will time the surge and vest.

 

Elites: Best of the best. They know just about everything there is to know about the game (or at least in thier specialty). They have the best grip, aim, timing, and movement. But even more more important, they play with thier head to outsmart thier opponents.