dhanix Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 I've created a list of features that Raven seriously needs to address if this game is to go ANYWHERE in the multiplayer community. 1. Force powers are WAY too buff, especially dark. In CTF games, for example, all a flag carrier has to do is Dark Rage and hes pretty much invulnerable and can get it home everytime. This is a huge imbalance, and will make sure CTF (one of the best community mods out there) will not get played. 2. Force powers should be unavailable to flag carriers in CTF, or GREATLY REDUCED, because not just the aforementioned Dark Rage problem (its like giving a free Speed/Quad/Amp to a player who needs to be at a disadvantage!), but because just like in all CTF mods, the flag carrier needs to be at a disadvantage (which then requires teamwork to be necessary to get the flag home). As it stands, there is no team element in CTF at all, this is a BAD THING! 3. Autoaim on powers, this NEEDS to be disabled for any actual league play, and at WORST put as an optional setting. Again, my critiques assume Raven may want this game to flourish as a league'able game. I hope so, it has great potential. 4. Maps, maps, maps. The same reason Q3A ctf never flourished, these maps are not built right. A player should be able to get to an enemy flag in about 20 seconds, and should be able to do it faster (slightly or alot, depends on your style) than the flag carrier. A 1 shot, u had a change u missed it at fc game is NOT FUN. Somethign needs to be done to ensure that the defense can "scramble" and have another go at the fc and his backup. This is solved by grapples, and translocators in other notable games. Raven NEEDS to do something (I think most elegant solution is diable fc's force abilities, which give other players the change to move faster, etc). This isn't a gripe at the game, and god knows its not "really" out yet, and most games suffer from early imbalances. My goal here is to get people discussing the gameplay balances, and more importantly to get RAVEN to do something progressive about these issues. Otherwise this game will disintegrate into sabre matces... when it has so much more potential. Your entitled to your own opinions, but try and respond intelligently if you respond at all. PS. TONE DOWN THE FORCE POWERS FOR MULTI PLAY!!! qp-dhanix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzzfunk666 Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Where did you buy the game? Seems like you been playing already more then a day.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpycrab Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Originally posted by buzzfunk666 Where did you buy the game? Seems like you been playing already more then a day.... I don't think that was the response he was after. You can guess where he got it from. -- Grumps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasuki Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 I haven't played yey but I agree force powers shouldn't be to strong in mulitplayer. Autoaim is really cheap to if you ask mee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Hi, dhanix. Where did you get the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zek Posted March 26, 2002 Share Posted March 26, 2002 Have you tried disabling the force in a CTF game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChangKhan Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Originally posted by dhanix I've created a list of features that Raven seriously needs to address if this game is to go ANYWHERE in the multiplayer community. 1. Force powers are WAY too buff, especially dark. In CTF games, for example, all a flag carrier has to do is Dark Rage and hes pretty much invulnerable and can get it home everytime. This is a huge imbalance, and will make sure CTF (one of the best community mods out there) will not get played. 2. Force powers should be unavailable to flag carriers in CTF, or GREATLY REDUCED, because not just the aforementioned Dark Rage problem (its like giving a free Speed/Quad/Amp to a player who needs to be at a disadvantage!), but because just like in all CTF mods, the flag carrier needs to be at a disadvantage (which then requires teamwork to be necessary to get the flag home). As it stands, there is no team element in CTF at all, this is a BAD THING! 3. Autoaim on powers, this NEEDS to be disabled for any actual league play, and at WORST put as an optional setting. Again, my critiques assume Raven may want this game to flourish as a league'able game. I hope so, it has great potential. 4. Maps, maps, maps. The same reason Q3A ctf never flourished, these maps are not built right. A player should be able to get to an enemy flag in about 20 seconds, and should be able to do it faster (slightly or alot, depends on your style) than the flag carrier. A 1 shot, u had a change u missed it at fc game is NOT FUN. Somethign needs to be done to ensure that the defense can "scramble" and have another go at the fc and his backup. This is solved by grapples, and translocators in other notable games. Raven NEEDS to do something (I think most elegant solution is diable fc's force abilities, which give other players the change to move faster, etc). This isn't a gripe at the game, and god knows its not "really" out yet, and most games suffer from early imbalances. My goal here is to get people discussing the gameplay balances, and more importantly to get RAVEN to do something progressive about these issues. Otherwise this game will disintegrate into sabre matces... when it has so much more potential. Your entitled to your own opinions, but try and respond intelligently if you respond at all. PS. TONE DOWN THE FORCE POWERS FOR MULTI PLAY!!! qp-dhanix Well, that's a valid opinion, and I've heard the opposites from others, so, we can't please everyone. If force powers are too powerful for you, play on servers with a lower force point limit or with force powers disabled (and, as far as I know, there's no autoaim on force powers). The game can be tailored to individual play tastes quite a bit by someone running a server... maybe try a server with different settings or start your own with some friends- I'm sure there are some others that may agree with some of your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digl Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 And there is a mode called CTY, you should take a look at that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wraith Nine Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 How come the flag carrier can use the force? Wasn't it supposed to be "Capture the Ysalamiri" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-street Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 I definately have to agree mostly with what you said except 1 issue (i haven't played JO yet). one issue i don't agree with you on is the FC needs to be at a disadvantage.. I think the term i would use here is no matter the force power it needs to be balanced in such a way that no matter the force power you have an equal chance at killing the FC has he does of killing you. That is the main reason why i have hated CTF until i was introduced to UnrealTournaments Instagib mutator. This basically levels the playing field to team work ( no rocket launchers, not anything.. 1 shot kills). But i believe this type of balancing isn't for JO. What i am hoping is (Like in JK) the server can limit force powers.. essentially balancing itself out. it is also my personal hope that the CTF community ( i hope it will grow to be as good as the UT:IG league) will sortof govern itself (ie.. No Rage, no Grip, no MindTrick)... in the end i think it will either self destruct itself (everyone uses the strongest force) or it will even out. One idea for a cool CTF mod would be to have 5 members per side and there are 5 different types of Jedi with predetermined Force powers.. for example: 1: Dark jedi with Rage 1: Dark Jedi with Grip 1: Middle Jedi with Grip and Trick 1: Light Jedi with Jump and Trick 1: Light Jedi with Pull and Speed (these would just be an example) And each side has the same setup.. that way all force powers are there and depending on which jedi you are determines your CTF role. The one with speed will most likely be your Flag Runner while the Grip would be your Flag Defender . but anyways that is just 1 example of how a league might be setup ( with the MOD). The other idea you mention i think would be easily done, kindof like capture the yslamari ( sp?) in MOTS where when you had the yslamari you had ZERO force powers. I think this could be a very good model depending on the strength of your teamwork. IMHO though on public servers ( league play is different) this wouldn't be that fun (because hey.. everyone wants force powers) in a public server. But those are just some ideas.. I am definately looking forward to joining into any sort of CTF community. Are there currently any organizations up to start the JO CTF community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanix Posted March 27, 2002 Author Share Posted March 27, 2002 Raven guy. No to "the community will police itself, go set your own settings". That ENSURES there will be no continuity in the mp community, and that is a VERY VERY bad thing. You will get no meaningful leagues/ladders in a game where there are a million different settings that everyone uses. There needs to be ESTABLISHED, BALANCED initial gameplay settings before any sort of community can evolve. At its current state, this game won't evolve because I guarentee most people will not find this games mp more satisfying than a romp through Serious Sam. It is not balanced, not even close, and needs to be. Seriously, CTF has only been a major mod (I mean MAJOR) in UT thusfar. Quake3 failed miserably, Tribes2 has met the same fate (keep in mind im referring to CTF, they have viable other mods to keep both games alive), and CS well, thats not CTF play at all. Your game will meet the same fate if you do not set some common settings that are balanced and tweaked. Theres no reason not to put out a "tournament mod" or something along those lines, if you really, really cant stand the idea of altering the overly powerful Forces. And disabling the forces, frankly, isnt an option. It gets rid of the heart of this game (might as well take out sabres while we're at it!). Otherwise this game will split into a thousand fragments, never gaining the cohesiveness of an online community, and frankly thats a shame. It has great potential, and ALOT of the force powers (neutrals) are great! They liven up movement (flips jumps etc), and create diversity. But when you go giving an Amp(Quad)+SPEED+ARMOR to players, thats ridiculous. It heavily unbalances the game. Might as well enable godmode while we're at it. Beefing up the weapons a tad also wouldn't hurt. It all depends, if you want a long lasting dedicated online community or not. If that isnt your desire (and it should be, if only for your pocket book and Ravens), then I'm afraid most other online gamers will give this a glance, and move on. It cant appeal to CS, reality types, it won't appeal to UT flashy types (itll be too much even for them), it definately won't appeal to Quake types (who like simplicity in game design - thats not a bad thing), it won't appeal to Tribes players. Those are your foundations for a serious online community, and I cant see it (in its present state) catering to any of them. Balance it up, and its a refreshing, new take on an online game, with alot of potential. Ignore it, and this ones a dead duck for anything but sabre duels and some single play (a shame). Again, an opinion, strongly stated, ignore it at your will, but don't be suprised when the sales fall out of the bottom of this unbalanced baby in a month or 2, and die altogether when the new kids (UT2) surface. IT HAS POTENTIAL SAVE IT! dhanix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zek Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Digl's right, I forgot all about that.. Jedi Outcast comes with both Capture the Flag and Capture the Ysalamari. Play CTY if you don't like the ease of flag caps in a regular game(in case you don't know, it essentially turns off force for the flag carrier, and possibly the people in close proximity to him/her). I'm not sure I see why there can't be any ladders or tournaments because of the setting options.. Simply have a required group of settings for the ladder/tournament in question. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardz Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 A bit less of the "raven guy" If you are bit more polite, you might get a reply. Its amazing how far a please will go... wardz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razarblade Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 I think it's rather funny that you think total customizability of a server is a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrebel Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 this dahnix guys is an idiot. the game isnt even officially out yet and already he has explored all the possible avenues of stopping a capper. try force speed + force jump if youre a defender. Than and det packs + trip mines setup as traps will do the job nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHerring Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 dhanix - I don't know if you didn't see this or not, but the question was asked if you had the game or not. Anyways, Tribes2 wasn't successful because of the many patches that were introduced, and the compatibility. The community died. There are very few posts on the forums anymore. However, almost every base server has CTF running because the Tribes series redefined it for every game out there. Tribes CTF cannot be beat. Also, the mods haven't been that successful either. Most of them require a seperate download which can be annoying and frustrating. Granted, I still play Warped and base, but its not the same with only 15 or so ppl playing in contrast to Tribes1 where you can join a 32 player game and keep on rockin. Tribes1 CTF still lives and is as popular as ever. Plus, I'm positive that the game has gone through testing for balance and maybe you need to find a way to defeat someone using Rage by using your noggin. And the after effects of Dark Rage are extremely risky to have happen to you after a flag grab. (run and fire slower, etc) I don't want to make this a personal attack on you, so don't take it that way, I'm just trying to show my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razarblade Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 And even if it's as bad as you say, who says you need good CTF for a great online community. In my personal opinion I could care less if they would have just left CTF out, It's all about the sabre duels, and that's what will sell this game, not the CTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madrebel Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 tribes 2 suffered cause it was horribly buggy and the gameplay pissed off the hardcore community. tribes1 ctf is not as strong as ever its basically dead. with only a handful of hardcore teams still playing. I know i was playing for the number1 team before i quit. just thought id clarify. oh btw try tribes 2 base++ its alot better than t2 base and only requires you to dl maps. but trust me the maps are well worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight_of_Wrath Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Not to be mean or anything, but personally i feel kinda embarrassed. Raven does a heck of a job on Jedi Outcast, and they come to the forums to give us info on the game and stuff, then someone starts dissin' the game. To me, that's like a slap in the face. Plus I don't see how dhanix has got the game already, unless it's warez. Again, that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razarblade Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 The game is out in austrailia and I believe some people recieved their orders from lucas arts today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight_of_Wrath Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Ohhh.......my bad. But still the smart remarks aren't needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordHypnos Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 I'm a CTF-er, and a hard fragger. I played around with bots a little, and here are some of the things i wouldnt mind being improved about the guns/gameplay: Disruptor/Sniper: i use high sensitivity, so aiming 100% with the mouse cannot be done. So, i fine-tune some of my aim by strafing. Unfortunately, if you're zoomed in, strafing resets the zoom. That's one problem. Also, there's some kind of a weird delay between pressing the fire button and having the gun fire, but i suppose that's a matter of adjusting. Bowcaster: having 5 bolts fly in all kinds of directions is spam. DEMP: primary's fire flies way too slow. In order to hit anything, you gotta spam it all over the place. Merr Sonn: I really like this gun. It's nearly perfect. Too bad it's impossible to find ammo for it. I think a good trade-off would be to lower it's damage, but put more ammo packs on CTF maps. Overall: the guns are spammy. Sniper's the only true hitscan weapon, others take lots of time to fly and hit the target. Any usefull prediction against a skilled opponent (at mid/far range) is useless if he has all the time in the world to move out of the way. And if you force close combat, then the only close-combat gun you have is the flechette (other then running around with that sword, or spamming repeater). So, it would all come down to sniper duels at long range and sword/force fights up close, which isnt exactly what I'm looking for.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aik Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Play 'Capture the Ysalamiri' instead... The carrier is drained of all force powers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razarblade Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 Heh lordhypnos, sabre fighting is the core of the game, if your in it just for the guns then i can see why you would be disappointed. I'll probably be using the sabre 100% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkSide Posted March 27, 2002 Share Posted March 27, 2002 It cant appeal to CS, reality types, it won't appeal to UT flashy types (itll be too much even for them), it definately won't appeal to Quake types (who like simplicity in game design - thats not a bad thing), it won't appeal to Tribes players. Those are your foundations for a serious online community, and I cant see it (in its present state) catering to any of them. You are missing the one thing that ties most computer gamers together dude. LOVE OF ALL THINGS STAR WARS. A "serious" online community still plays JK1 to this day. You have conveniently separated the fans of all the above games like you can't like one without hating the others. The foundation for a serious online community is already there man...it's a hi-tech, next generation FPS set in the Star Wars universe. Computer people love Star Wars! Give us something with Star Wars in it and we;ll play it until our fingers fall off. I guess my main point is that you're ignoring the "transcendance" factor of the Star Wars brand. You tap into an incredibly large and knowledgable fan base that has been around for OVER 20 years. I know plenty of CS'ers that are salivating over this game. Why? Cuz we used to play with our SW toys endlessly as kids. If you build it, they will come Star Wars Style TheDarkSide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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