The DRAIN problem.

[Darth Frank]

This is a repost from my reply on the Patch thread.

 

I've noticed a growing trend in people agreeing that drain is definately overpowered along with the dark side in general (mostly due to drain IMO). The following are my proposed solutions to the problem including an Absorb solution (this still wouldn't fix the stalemate two Dark Jedi can get into with drain). If you have any comments, opinions, or solutions feel free to post them so Raven can get some ideas. It makes their job a whole lot easier if they can get everyone's input, therefore giving us a better patch much quicker.

 

 

THE DRAIN PROBLEM

 

1. Drain is overpowered. It sucks too much force, too quickly, and you cannot recover. It isn't much of an issue in FFA games when ytou are going 3 on 1 in some situations, but in 1v1 duels it is insane. Usually the first person to pull their drain off, wins the game. They drain your force, then grip, then slash/lightning/throw then they get drain again and repeat the process. In the hands of a player with just a basic graps on the force powers it is way too powerful. For the experienced players it is just plain godlike. I can kill people in less than 30 seconds with a drain/grip combo.

 

Possible solutions:

 

a. Drain only drains force power and does not give health.

b. It drains at a slower pace. For example, it would take about 1 full second for every 10 health it gave you (and the equivalent force it pulled from the target). This would make it drain your juice much slower, be less useful as a healing aid, and it would cause the opponent to be vulnerable longer if they wanted a large amount of health. This is my favorite solution. As it seems the most balanced without destroying the effect of the power.

c. Leave the drainer in a frozen vulnerable state for a limited amount of time depending on the amount of force drain to regain the health he just acquired. The more force drained, the longer you are frozen.

d. Allow only one drain every 20-30 seconds.

 

One of those solutions or a variant should balance the power without totally nerfing it. Leave its range as it is, leave its arc as it is.

 

2. Absorb is nearly useless. As it is, Absorb drains force power almost as fast as drain does, and on top of that you glow blue telling everyone, "HEY! DON'T WASTE YOUR FORCE POWER ON ME, IM INVULNERABLE TO IT!" When I see someone glow blue, I simply wait 3-4 seconds for their force to run out then I pummel them with everything I have.

 

Possible solutions:

a. Don't show the glow

b. Make it drain your force at a 1/4 the rate it currently does. Maybe even less.

[Guest Obi]

I just toggle my absorb off until someone attacks me. If you don't have it on uselessly, it won't drain your power or tip people off. If you aren't getting attacked because you have a blue glow, then that's all the better. Take advantage of that situation and go at them. As far as drain goes, absorb counters it, and I'm light, so I don't have a problem. But I'm not sure about drain vs drain.

[Smoof]

Lol.. Nerf... play EQ much?

[Darth Frank]

I hate EQ but I played it during its first three months.

 

And Obi, I dare you to try and "come at me" while your absorb is going. I can either fight you head to head until your 5 seconds of force invulnerability is up, or just run in a circle while you drain your power. Sure, you could try to force pull me, or even toss your saber, but then you'll have about 3 seconds of absorb invulnerability.

 

Oce that absorb is gone, I can drain you all I want and I'll have the force power advantage. I can then grip you and lightning you and toss my saber at you. And every 5 seconds I'll drain you again so you can't heal or do use any force powers for that matter. And I'll still have the force power advantage along with the health advantage.

 

If you wait to use your absorb until I attack you then, you are already dead cuz I already drained your force power.

 

Sure, Absorb and drain are all fine and dandy on FFA, TDM, and CTF servers. But 1v1 duels, its a different story.

[Shayed]

I simply advocate administrator force power restriction....

 

If it's a duel server and the admin dosen't want drain...he sets nodrain...

 

This is what needs to be implemented. Because as you said, in a FFA/CTF/Whatever there is no real problem...2 people hitting you at once and your dead drain or no drain.

 

I have no problem not draining in a duel...only thing that pisses the hell out of me is when they're like "NO DRAINING" and yet they heal....anyway....que sara

 

peace:jawa

[Darth Frank]

I'd hate to see them have to make the force list smaller, but I agree. The easiest solution would be to just allow the servers to turn off individual force powers along with the entire side. I have been advocating that since day 1. But if they wanted to spend a little time on it, I think they could make a more balanced game without having to get rid of anything.

[TornSoul]

The only thing they have to do to make it "not so powerful" is make the drain on your force powers just as big as on the one you're draining.

[Darkseed]

Killing a healer without drain is a pain... (wow that rhymed)

[Elenkis]

>>d. Allow only one drain every 20-30 seconds.<<

 

Ok, what people seem to be forgetting here is that it costs YOU force to use Drain as well. You know it only takes 5 seconds for the person casting Drain to use up his own Force? And then you can't use it anymore until you get some more Force back. It's not like you can stand there using Drain forever...

 

In fact by the time it takes to Drain a player from full force to nothing, you've used up all of your own force too, leaving you both with nothing. If it really is overpowered then all Raven need to do is tweak how much force it costs you so that using it makes your force run out even faster.

 

But I hesitate to complain about balancing issues for a game that has only been out a week and everyone is still learning... So far I've already seen people complain about Heal, Absorb, Lightning and Grip being overpowered as well, then they discovered it wasnt such a big deal as they thought. We gotta remember that Raven have tested all this stuff extensively before releasing it and probably have a better idea of the balancing than we do at the moment. Just my opinion, of course if it really does become a problem then it needs to be fixed. I just worry that people are making balance judgements too early that might cause Raven to fix things that don't need fixing (and potentially break them - it has happened before).

 

-Elenkis

http://www.ttlg.com

[Darksider]

and as a healer drain is massively inneficient compared to heal , plus you need a target rather than simply running and healing , your entire force will be gone once youve used it leaving you powerless to grip or throw or anything else , force regenerates at the same rate for both people they regain effectivness about the same time. i use drain across multiple people wherever possible simply to get a large chunk of health back and to drain force when fighting someone to cut down on sabre throws , healing and lightning whores =p

[Darth Frank]

I've used drain extensively and you can drain entire force bar of one person and only use about half of yours. You still have plenty left over to use for lightning or grip or anything else you please. It does not take a full bar to drain another person's bar.

 

While other methods, such as absorb, are somewhat effective, in the hands of a good player drain can be extremely powerful.

 

My main concern is with competitive dueling. Ladders/tournies. I've got a bad feeling most of the people that are on the Full Force ladders are going to be using drain and you'll end up seeing every match as a pure drain fest. Maybe it is too early to tell, but I can guarantee we'll see the effects of overpowered forces once the competition goes into full swing in the next couple weeks.

 

I also think Heal could use a tweak if drain is weakened, but as it stands Drain is much more effective. You can be extremely far away and still pull it off with no problem.

 

Even if you both have low force power, the drainer can continuously drain allowing him to stay healthy and keep the other person from healing themselves. Since you have to have a minimum of 4 force bars to use heal and only 1 force bar to use drain. It would be a different story if heal could be used with any amount of force and just heal so much health per force bar.

 

One suggestion I read was to just make Heal useable at any time, instead of hitting it one time you would just hold it down for the amount of health you wanted to restore. This would balance out the light/dark issue. As for two people that use dark forces, you'll see quite long rounds and lots of running around. That's my observation at least.

[arctic_series]

it would be all fine if they made it either that when their health fills up they wouldn't be able to drain anymore force unless they didn't have full health.

 

or make it that drain can never fully drain a person's force powers.. like say only drain 1/2 or a 2/3 before you can't drain anymore.

[Darth Frank]

I like that arctic. Don't allow them to drain unless they don't have full health. And they can only drain up to 100 hp. Simple solution, but effective. Just like you can't heal past 100 health.

 

Ha, I shoulda thought of that one. Good idea.

[arctic_series]

oh yes. very much so.

 

as of now. anyone dark jedi who knows what they're doing just goes on a rampage and beats the crap out of everything and everyone.

 

drain everyone's force powers and then proceed to grip them off cliffs. in the mean time they can't die since they keep getting life back. very annoying !

[Elenkis]

>>Don't allow them to drain unless they don't have full health. And they can only drain up to 100 hp. Simple solution, but effective. Just like you can't heal past 100 health.<<

 

I agree, that could be a nice solution.

 

I still don't have this problem against Drainers that some of you are talking about though. As soon as anyone starts to use Drain against me I quickly Force Push them and knock them over, or Pull them towards to me and then lay into them with my saber as they're TOTALLY defenseless while in the process of casting Drain (so Push and Pull wont be blocked). Or level 3 Force Jump up and land right beside them, or Force Speed right up to them (if you bind your force keys you can easily do this before they get a chance to drain all your force).

[Silent Wolf]

I turned to the dark side...it didnt take long before i realized the sheer POWER of it all. I quickly devloped my skills with drain, grip, and the lovely force push. However im not a fan of cheapness, and as darth frank so eloquently stated drain is being "whored" in this game. So this weekend i tried to devlop a working force counter set 2 it. Heres what i learned.

 

Force Absorb, push, jump. Thats all i use now on lightside. If you time the absorbs right, u can let them try and whore the drain all they want, they just end up getting frustrated. Especially after u place some blows on them get frustrated when they CAN NOT HEAL!, there is nothing like seeing a dark user in heavy in his last attempt to kill you. You know he had 5 hp, its sheer desperation.

 

 

My advice, is to learn how to use absorb well, it is the PERFECT counter attack to drain. Master it

 

-Wolf

[Bridger]

it seems to me that slowing down the drain so they would be more vulnerable longer, would be the best solution.

 

That's my vote.

[Zek]

The only problem with Drain is that it drains Force a little too quickly.

 

What most people haven't figured out yet is that the reason Drain owns so much is because everyone is a Dark Jedi(for Drain, ironically), and Dark Jedi have no defense against their own tools. The Light Side is immune to all the annoying Force tactics(Push/Gripping off edges, Absorb, etc).

 

Also, Drain won't heal them at all if you don't have force power. If all else fails, use everything you have against them early and neither of you will be able to heal.

[Marv]

just when you think you're out of range of drain... vwooooshhh.... the range on drain is insane also... maybe they should reduce it to the same range as grip or lightning.

 

p.s. i beat drain whores all the time with absorb/heal... it's not THAT over powered.

 

drain sure is nice when you're getting attacked 4 or 5 on 1 in tffa though...