New Player and whiner rant

[PhilCanuck]

I have a low post number, that just means I'm not a forum whore.

 

My approach to things is this (and this applies to any online game I play): If it's in the game, it's fair game. The people in any community who whine and moan about people using "unbalanced" or "dishonourable" tactics are almost always the people who haven't put forth the effort to counter them.

 

I'm a 100% light jedi in-game, and everything I do force-wise has a counter measure. Same goes for the dark-side users. Anyone who thinks drain or lightning are overpowered needs to remap their keys. If someone tries to drain me, I absorb and use the free mana to heal. Think absorb or heal are cheap? Well, they are pretty balanced in compensating for the offensive force powers of the dark side.

 

Then there's gun whores and cheap-kill monkeys. I don't use rockets, and I don't understand what's fun about lobbing rounds into a group of unarmed duelers. Having that happen to me is a risk I take playing on a FFA server. So hey, if that's what you get off on, I won't complain. I'm there for fun, not to rack up massive kill totals. I have no...physical inadequacies...for which I feel the need to compensate.

 

I had a great bunch of games last night, I have to say. I found a group of people that wanted to duel...real duels. Anything goes. Only once last night did someone complain about force powers, specifically healing, and after I pointed out that he was trying to use drain on me constantly he gave up and got back to the game.

 

This game has some of the best out-of-box balance that I've ever seen. IMO, anyone who finds themselves unable to counter an opponents force powers needs to look to their own setup and force allocation before they look to Raven.

[Kurgan]

These ARE the official forums after all.

 

Just a note, these are NOT "the official lucasarts forums" if you meant that LEC runs them. In fact we are the Lucas Fan Networks.. ie: FAN run sites based on LEC games. We're a fan community.. just wanted to make that clear. ; )

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by Creston

One thing that never ceases to amaze me whenever a sequel to a game comes out is that the "crowd" that played the first game to death automatically considers themselves to be The Final Word on whatever is allowed or not allowed in the sequel, and to be the Final Arbiters on whether or not anyone is allowed to complain about something.

 

If The Crowd thinks Drain is too overpowered? Hell, it has to be patched. Everyone who uses Drain is a L@M3R!

If Every newbie thinks Drain is too overpowered? Shut up newbie, you have no right to talk! Everyone who uses Drain is a "vet"!

 

 

Threepage, EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion, and as far as I know EVERYONE has the right to post those opinions on LucasArts' official forums. The reason I think most newcomers to the game (and excuse me for saying this, but you, like the rest of us, probably have not had the game for more than a week, so in that effect, you're as much a newbie as the rest of us) think Drain is overpowered is because

1) It works way too fast.

2) EVERYBODY and their dog uses it.

 

The fun part about a well balanced FFA is that many people will use many different strategies. If you come onto a server and see everybody draining everybody, and every other strategy fails, then you have a decent argument by saying that Drain is overpowered. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be used so heavily.

 

The "solution" you provide ; Use Drain yourself is no solution at all, merely a perpetuation of the problem.

 

No offense intended, but I played JK1 to death as well, and I also think that Drain is too powerful in comparison to a lot of other powers. Same goes for Heal, Lightning, and same goes for weapons (I think it's ridiculous that anyone with a blaster will kill me while I'm doing nothing but defending with saberdefense 3).

 

Let's try to let everybody have their say, alright? These ARE the official forums after all. Whines and rants are very often the only way for people to voice their complaints about a game, and the fact that they TAKE the time to post their complaints and rants and whines means that they like the game enough to do so.

 

Cheers

 

Creston

 

 

i am sorry, but i am appalled by your post

 

first of all, in the context of my usage of newbie, i am certainly not a newbie in any regard, and i know for certain that others who have played me or have even talked to me can tell this...like in my earlier post, newbieness is about attitude..

 

first of all, using drain against drain is perfect! if neither of you can use force powers, it evens out the playing field, and you are free to attack them....it is not a perpetuation to the problem because you yourself are evening the playing field....no one complains that lightning is too powerful in the movies, because it is a dark move! so why, since its in a game should we say " you shouldnt use grip or lightning or drain because they are unfair ?"

it is ridiculous!!

 

i cannot believe how someone could be as one sided and closed minded as you...

 

how about the relative cheapness of absorb? it renders force powers useless, and in the playing styles of many, having more force and you immune to force attacks is a very cheap way to win...why arent you bashing absorb?

 

how about pull? hmm? that can take people's guns away! that is "cheap"! they can't attack while they are on the ground...that is "cheap"....please...you are attacking force drain because you are mad that you are getting owned by it and instead of finding a counter like i and many other people have done, you are whining...the development of game and gameplay are not done by newbies...they are skilled players and know what they are talking about...they arent going to necessarily patch something because a few whiners complain about losing a lot...if you are in teh sabering crowd, you probably dont liek gunners...many tell the gunners to go play ut or another "fps" if they want to gun....well i have news for you saberists....we arent going to go away, and by whining about force powers (something which you say put jk2 away from the crowd of other fps's) and immediately yelling for a patch, you are applying a double standard and show that you have little credibility...these are just things i noticed, and yes, you are free to express your opinion =)

 

btw, this is a rant about whiners =)

 

oh, and i do not consider myself to be elite at this game; i do however know that i am very good at other guns games, and i know (as well as any other saber or guns skilled player knows) that if you know the scene, know whats giong on, more than likely the learning curve of gameplay and the like is going to be much shorter than someone who is not into other games....and simply because you played multiplayer jk a lot does not mean that i will respect your opinion...after all, as ive said before, newbie is about an attitude...

 

now, for some support for your side...

yes, force drain might be a little too powerful and might be patched a little, but there are uber powers in every game...

the point is that many others shouldnt be so persistent in whining about drain when there are several counters to it..that is all that i have been trying to say throughout this post....

 

btw, have you even used drain vs. drain?

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by PhilCanuck

I have a low post number, that just means I'm not a forum whore.

 

My approach to things is this (and this applies to any online game I play): If it's in the game, it's fair game. The people in any community who whine and moan about people using "unbalanced" or "dishonourable" tactics are almost always the people who haven't put forth the effort to counter them.

 

I'm a 100% light jedi in-game, and everything I do force-wise has a counter measure. Same goes for the dark-side users. Anyone who thinks drain or lightning are overpowered needs to remap their keys. If someone tries to drain me, I absorb and use the free mana to heal. Think absorb or heal are cheap? Well, they are pretty balanced in compensating for the offensive force powers of the dark side.

 

Then there's gun whores and cheap-kill monkeys. I don't use rockets, and I don't understand what's fun about lobbing rounds into a group of unarmed duelers. Having that happen to me is a risk I take playing on a FFA server. So hey, if that's what you get off on, I won't complain. I'm there for fun, not to rack up massive kill totals. I have no...physical inadequacies...for which I feel the need to compensate.

 

I had a great bunch of games last night, I have to say. I found a group of people that wanted to duel...real duels. Anything goes. Only once last night did someone complain about force powers, specifically healing, and after I pointed out that he was trying to use drain on me constantly he gave up and got back to the game.

 

This game has some of the best out-of-box balance that I've ever seen. IMO, anyone who finds themselves unable to counter an opponents force powers needs to look to their own setup and force allocation before they look to Raven.

 

 

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! beautiful post....especially the last paragraph =)

 

 

btw, im not saying that all or even most of the newcomers are whiners...what i was trying to say that i didn't see as many "old" forumgoers as i did newcomers complaining...i was not in any way trying to make a blanket statement....i would just like to finally get that cleared up.... =)

[Forhekset]

Originally posted by Pedro The Hutt

Nah if you feel like shocking me to death go ahead, that's your strategy, up to me to choose a good way to keep myself from getting killed. (like say jump over you or something) So far that's alright with me, all I'm saying is, when an opponent is completely helpless, give him the chance to get his defences back up. (but hey, that's me, it doesn't feel right for me to kill someone who is completely defenceless, perhaps I'm just a pathetic wimp lol, who's to tell)

 

Well it's one thing if we're on a sabre only server and people are having nice duels and I run up behind someone who has his sabre unignited and kill him...that's just being an ass. However I still think anyone who has been knocked down as a result of combat is fair game

 

Originally posted by PhilCanuck

I have a low post number, that just means I'm not a forum whore.

 

Lol...now anyone who posts on the forum more than you do is a "forum whore"? This whore thing is getting wayyyyy out of hand.

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by Forhekset

 

Lol...now anyone who posts on the forum more than you do is a "forum whore"? This whore thing is getting wayyyyy out of hand.

 

heh im sorry i put that up there in the original post...i was just noticing a pattern.... calc will do that to you heh =)

[Forhekset]

Know what's funny is to do a Find on this page for the word whore and see how many times it comes up......I just did that and it's like whore whore whore whore whore whore.

[thrEEpaGe]

yeah i believe that that word comes up more than 'the' does.... =)

[TheDarkSide]

now, for some support for your side...

yes, force drain might be a little too powerful and might be patched a little, but there are uber powers in every game...

the point is that many others shouldnt be so persistent in whining about drain when there are several counters to it..that is all that i have been trying to say throughout this post....

 

btw, have you even used drain vs. drain?

****************************************************

 

 

The problem as I see it with drain is that while there are counters to it, on certain server types it is horrendous...ala Duel servers. The good counter I've seen to drain is to not be in sabers only 1 v 1 with a drainer. Playing as a Light, maxed out absorb can hardly be called a counter to drain in a 1 on 1 (equally high skilled) situation. It prolongs the inevitable of your force power running out. I don't think alot of people realize this but absorb gives you 0 force pool regeneration against drain. It is the exact same effect as if I am in a room by myself with nobody else on the server and I turn on Absorb. It just keeps ticking down. And a level 3 force drain requires exactly .8 seconds to suck you of your mana. Logic to me says that as long as your being drained if you have absorb on, at the very least your force pool should be holding steady

In my mind, you have two choices in a 1v1 sabers only env against drain. Keep it on at the first attempt of drain (which will provide you w/ 15 secs to take care of business) or try to time your absorbs only when he drains. The latter will eventually backfire as some drains WILL come in faster than u can hit your key, even with it one key away from your wasd setup or on your mouse.

 

And as to your drain vs drain suggestion at the end...how exactly would that work on a Team FFA server? Ties in to my original point...finding a counter to drain in many ways is tied to the server option and or gametype.

 

Notice I have not called for to drain to be modified...I'm not whining. Just pointing out the problem I have noticed with it

 

TDS

[thrEEpaGe]

i completely understand your point of view, and i respect it ...you bring up valid points....in a duel situation, drain would be more powerful than in an ffa situation IMO....in a team ffa situation, i think it might be more feasable to team up on the drainer(s), and if they are all doing it, use drain...the drainers are counting a lot on the drain helping them greatly....my suggestion of drain vs drain is just something that would not be expected...thats all =)

 

i am glad that you presented your opinion in a civilized manner =)...even though you argued against me, i can see your point more clearly now =)

[TheDarkSide]

You're right. Team FFA (with enough people, more than 2 on 2 I'd say), if a guy just stands there draining, he's in for some hurting. The other thing I found that is pretty good is when the other team isn't working together....i.e I've been crackled (lightning'ed just doesn't sound or look right) and drained at the same time while absorb is on....and it keeps you pegged at full force.

Point being basically, the big problem is one on one. I for one would agree to go without absorb, if it meant the other guy would go without drain.

And thanks for appreciating the civility you're welcome.

TDS

(yes i know my name betrays my playing style....I have found myself drawn to the light side for 2 reasons....a) everybody and their mama seems to be Dark Side, b) I think it's more challenging.)

[Lnt. Kechtt]

I just want to get my two bits in because I know I'm going to get nailed for it. I'm not critizing anybody. I'm not saying anything other then when I feel. I do not intend to offend anyone in anyway. With that out of the way here I go:

 

I've heard alot of talk about honor. Padro, I like your style. I admire your honor and the opinions you have displayed. I would love to duel you in person and adapt your honorable ways for myself in that duel. I have found in my MP experiance that everybody is different when it comes to honor. I will tell you right now, I have absolutely NO problem with parking with a distrupter and disinagrating people who are chasing each other along the streets of Nar Sandaa, (or however it's spelled). NOW, If I see two people who have accepted a duel, I'll bugger off.

 

I consider myself as having honor, it's just different then the honor you may have. Padro again, I admire your honor and am going to try to incorperate it in duels where it is me verse 1 (ONE) other opponent. In the case of a FFA though, I will park when it benifits me and I fully expect to be shot by another sniper or hacked by a sabre wielder while I'm scopping someone. I fully expect to get shot myself while I'm fighting in mass duels and such. There is a time and a place for everything. For some, honor is constant, and often, saddly, those people are exploited. It is said. It also happens. I don't know who has honor and who doesn't in a fire-fight or though the scope of a rife. I just pull the trigger when there's a target. Honor is what everybody things about himself. Honor is personal.

 

There. I'm done. I'll shut up about this now. I just had to get that off my chest. Feel free to shoot me in the back, I might do it to you.

[Essobie]

Originally posted by thrEEpaGe

 

 

heh i dont immediately look at your posts; i look at your text and then i try to look for a correlation =)

 

on your comment on countering drain, absorb works amazingly well against drain, in addition to not letting them use their strategy, you get force power as well...

also, the fight fire with fire adage works good in this situation too =) drain counters drain...no grip once thier force is gone as well =)

 

guns work so so against drain, but they can still use grip or lightning easily....drain or absorb is your best bet...

 

I'm glad you calmed down a bit since yesterday. Here's some more arguementation for you.

 

Absorb works horribly against Drain. You do not get force power from people using drain on you with Absorb on. I tried it last night on a testing server. The only thing Absorb does against drain is blocks the effect of you losing Force at a ludicrous rate, and prevents the player from gaining health off your force.

 

Granted you can toggle Absorb on and off quickly, but in turn, your opponents can SEE when it's on or off... and when you turn it off, they flash you with a few milliseconds of Drain and you are out a ton of force power.

 

I like the fact that Absorb is shown to all players because that takes some of the major advantage of having Absorb on (since it prevents Force Pull on gun servers).

 

If you leave Absorb on, all you are doing is accomplishing the Draining player's mission more slowly: removing all your force power to open you up for Grip or Lightning or whatever.

 

In a no guns server, there is no effective counter for Drain other than more Drain... and in the scenario of Dueling servers where it's possible to lock up a map by USING Drain, this is a problem.

 

As we've both stated numorous times, the gun is the perfect counter for Drain... but I'm not even talking about that.

 

And frankly, I don't think that Drain should be a required Force Power for playing Saber Only dueling. That basically takes the depth right out of that type of gameplay. While the point of Drain is to attempt to "even the playing field" between Light and Dark, what it is actually doing is reducing Saber Only to a very small, very simple formula of "Drain, Slash, Drain, Slash, Drain" on BOTH sides of a fight. If someone doesn't do just that, the person who does will win (assuming both parties are above average players).

 

[Edit: I just notest that without my knowing it, I just parroted most of what TheDarkside said two posts up. I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees the flaws in Drain for 1v1.)

 

Essobie

[PhilCanuck]

Originally posted by Forhekset

 

Lol...now anyone who posts on the forum more than you do is a "forum whore"? This whore thing is getting wayyyyy out of hand.

 

No, it just means that if I were a forum whore, I'd have more posts

 

And to answer another point someone made, I'll gladly give up absorb if my opponent gives up drain, as long as we also drop grip and heal. Of course that makes me easy lightning bait... Eventually we'll end up with no force powers at all, and there's already servers that cater to that.

[TheDarkSide]

Essobie-

I sent you a PM about the LAN party...i need you to PM me your email address and I can give you the full scoop. It looks like the in-house capacity has been reached, but dialing-in may be an option (the guy has 384kb upstream)

 

TDS

[RahnDelSol]

Speaking as a Lightsider, I have to say that a 1 on 1 situation can be dealt with. Yeah, I can hit absorb for a long enough time to deal with a drainer.

 

But it's rarely a 1 on 1 when you are on a FFA server.

 

The saber-only FFA server I've been on lately usually sees a ratio of 1 light-side player for every 5 dark-side.

 

So instead of trying to avoid ONE player who's using chain drain-grip-lightning combos, I have to avoid MULTIPLES. I usually spend the entire match running around with no mana at all.

 

And yes, as was stated before...Absorb does NOT give you a mana boost when someone tries to drain you.

[Vagabond]

thrEEpaGe, you are obscenely mistaken if you believe that since you've been visiting these forums longer, your opinion is more valid than that of a new member. That assumption stinks of self-righteous arrogance.

 

In truth, all opinions are equal.

[Nax]

The problem with absorb, as far as I can tell, is that it is the only thing in the game that allows you to control an opponent's force pool. The force being so integral to most any strategy, you essentially castrate most of your opponent's ability to do anything with guns off. The fact that it performs its job so well doesn't help.

 

Frankly, I think the ideal solution would be to half or 3/4ths the range and drain rate and restore the bryar pistol to saber only matches.

 

Woudln't hurt to make the startup of higher level grips stationary either (you could still run around after the first 50 miliseconds of grip, but it seems a bit powerful to snap it off on the go).

 

 

My raw opinion. I might be able to get more playtime this weekend, but from what I can tell, drain is pretty isolated in its devices. With smaller range at least push and speed would help, and with a slower drain rate one can have one well timed force-based cop-out/counter. Honestly, is there any reason it should drain that fast?

 

Nax

[Nax]

Hiya Vagabond. Nice to see you're still hanging around. =)

 

One must declare, however, that in truth, not all opinions are equal. However, one must also declare that a an opinion's valuation or validity cannot be judged solely, or even largely by its holder. An opinions validity, ideally, is to be judged from its cogency. Not by its elequence, and not by its wit, but only by its logical elegance.

 

This of coruse is rarely the case. Opinions are judged, usually, by the eloquence and standing of the speaker. Were I thrEEpage (which I am not), I do not think I would wish to have my opinions judged in this manner, as he seems to judge others' (with vigor).

 

How old are you thrEEpage? Bear in mind that your answer will reflect upon your maturity.

 

Nax

[RahnDelSol]

Originally posted by thrEEpaGe

 

 

i regret commenting about the number of posts; i was just noting a correlation b/w whiners and new users...im sorry! heh =)

 

 

 

I think some of you that are flaming thrEEpaGe at this point need to go back and read the thread

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Don't ask for a patch to make it so some one with more skill cant kill you so easy. JK2 is dumbed down enough compared to JK1.

 

If you took out drain then there would be something else to "inbalance" the game. Then that would be taken out, leaving another thing to "imbalance" the game. Sooner or later the game would go like this... 1) join 2) game automatically ends with everyone tied for 1st.

 

Learn to do it yourself, better then the next guy.

 

* * * * *

 

From Vagabond: Watch yourself Torment - While I deleted your previously unsalvagable tirade, I've edited out the offensive language from this post in order to present your idea for consideration. Think "honey" not "vinegar" when expressing yourself.

[Vagabond]

Hey, Nax.

 

I struggled when deciding to state that all opinions are equal. However, I went with it because, in my view, opinions are nothing more than unverifiable pieces of information - aka, not facts. They are true for the individual that believes them, but the acceptance of an opinion is not necessarily universal across a population.

 

Stepping down from the theoretical to the practical, let's assume I prefer pepperoni pizza over sausage pizza. This is my opinion, and for me this opinion is a fact, localized only to me. However, you may prefer sausage pizza over all others, and so a different truth would apply to you in this regard.

 

Let's look at a universal truth (aka fact): 2 + 2 = 4. This truth is universal for a population. This piece of information is reproducable and verifiable, and no matter how badly one may not want to believe, nonetheless it is true for everyone.

 

My reasoning for saying that all opinions are equal is because they are all 100% true for the person that holds that opinion, and hence equal in validity. I like peperonni and you like sausage...this is a truth for each of us respectively. For I think everyone could agree that it would be absurd for me to assert that everyone that didn't like pepperoni was wrong, because only my opinion counts. That you may like sausage pizza better is just as valid an opinion as any other, and hence equal.

[Forhekset]

Hmm...I guess I hadn't noticed that Absorb doesn't refill your mana when used against Drain. Although it still works well enough for me so far as an effective counter for Drain. Then again I probably haven't played against the most badass DarkSiders yet as I play a lot of no-force sabre only.

 

PhilCanuck: I can't argue with your logic.

[thrEEpaGe]

Originally posted by Vagabond

thrEEpaGe, you are obscenely mistaken if you believe that since you've been visiting these forums longer, your opinion is more valid than that of a new member. That assumption stinks of self-righteous arrogance.

 

In truth, all opinions are equal.

 

if you read the posts you would see that i do not share this assumption =) on teh first post it seemed like that =)

[WD_ToRMeNt]

Vag, was just pointing out that that whining is actually very selfish. If you want everyone to play a game YOUR way you are being selfish because they may want to play another way.

 

I don't expect people to want to play the same way as me, but don't complain when I play my way.