Raven's big mistake

[Feanor]

Originally posted by Edward_Zeth

 

 

^ Are you a teenagaer that you can say all of this without knowing yourself? I'm 15, I don't have a job, and won't have one for some time. First off, kids have school, and homework, and other things to do. I don't have enough time for much in my usual day. Get up at 6 leave to school at 6:30, get home at 4, do hw, use the comp or watch tv maybe an hour or two, if i dont have a lot of hw, eat, shower, then sleep. I don't have time for a job.

 

Blimey, and there was me thinking being a teenager was easy....oh wait, it was! I managed to work 30 hours a week through most of my teenage years (12-17) as a Cab Radio Operator, and I took home about £150 per week for that - and I got straight 'A's at school - so don't give me this "I don't have time" crap. If you're too lazy to get a job, that's your problem, but it's no justification for commiting a crime. We were all kids once you know, you're not the first teenager in the world....

[Tek]

so if someone cant afford a viper they should go out and steal one without paying?

[Chanke4252]

Its not really like the people who download the games are short on cash. 99.9999% of the people who download the warez games have broadband connections, lets face it, someone with a dialup connection isnt going to download 500+ megabites worth of data for one game. That would take about a week and chances are the connection would cut out before that. Anyway, broadband connections usually cost AT LEAST $50.00 a month and if you are going to burn that much money on an internet connection, your not short on cash.

 

Warezers are almost always financially able to afford a game that they want, its just lack of respect IMO.

 

I have a strong hate for hackers. Especially when people send you things in your email asking for your password because you may have won something etc (I use AOL for some email).

[Veng]

while i dont agree with pirateing you have to realise it doesnt affect the gaming industry as much as you think otherwise why has the gaming industry grown by 115% since 1995? (this figure was taken from a number of computer magazines)

[Ham Yoyo]

I paid my $50 for JKII and its worth every penny.

[asim0s]

well sorry to say guys but this discusion is like the eternal problem of the internet(not like the meaning of life as people say )

 

 

my point of view on this matter is that companies are aware that there product is going to be distributed illegaly for example wolfenstein has shipped over 1 million copies and there is half of the servers out there are cracked but still people buy it

 

but the only company i give credit is valve

through the won authentication they gained millions and millions of customers so...

 

i own like 200 game titles not that im proud of

the games i like i buy all original

wolf

halflife

unreal tournamnet

homeworld cataclysm

jedi knight

 

 

but just imagined alla those 200 titles if i bought them

 

200x30 = 6000 dollars

 

sorry boys but cant afford that

[toolboi]

so if someone cant afford a viper they should go out and steal one without paying?

Oh theres so much wrong with this statment that I dont even want to start on it...

 

As for the broadband/money issue. Quite often these "teen pirates" (I dont know, but a LOT of teenagers seem to be pirates) quite often live at home, having others pay their internet costs. Also broadband (at least mine) costs $30 a month, that is NOT a lot of money. When you consider that a game provides about 10h a entertainment these days, and it costs $70 on average... I dont think that its really an issue of not having the money though... I think that its more a lack of willingness to fork over cash for a virtual product (I admit that I still have a LOT of trouble with this. Mind you Im the same with music, I dont beleive it buying CDs unlss Ive heard and liked every song on the album).

I think that Raven was actually pretty intelligent with their copy protection system. Why? Well...

You can not make something uncrackable. Hell, they (pirates) even found a way around battlenet registration for WC3 by using BnetD. Its unrealistic to think that you can. All these companies spend money building protection schemes that are broken before its out.

Now, Raven didnt do this, what does this mean? They spend LESS money on the game including a feaure that in the long run will be worthless. Same with Unreal, I loved listening to the programmers talking about piracy

 

reviewer: What kind of piracy protection will you have in the game?

Epic: Well, you need the CD to play... and its 500 megabytes... (this was back in the days where 28.8 was fast, remember)

[Tek]

My point is, stealing is stealing, It doesnt matter if its a viper or a candybar, People try to justify it because "It's just a game".

 

 

 

But of course you wont explain why my statement has so much wrong with it.

[Chiori]

I don't like warez. But think of this before you say 'stealing is stealing'. How many of you use mp3s downloaded from the web? If you say you don't use warez games but you dl mp3s then I really question your moral. It is as illegal as copying cds.

 

Just my thought because I bet most of you use mp3s from the web. And so noone here is an angel. (And I bought JO in stores but I do download mp3s).

 

Chiori

[sttaffy]

someone i know had the illegal version the day the game came out (no, it wasnt me)

[big pun]

Actually CD keys do work very well for copy protection, as long as it uses an authentication server. But I look at it this way, think of how much bigger the community will be, even if they are freeloaders. More peeps = more servers, among other things.

[TripLe]

Originally posted by Tek

so if someone cant afford a viper they should go out and steal one without paying?

 

Im guessing 100% of the people who buy that viper test-drive it first. The kid just didnt want to get ripped off.. I see no harm to raven in that. If he had gone out and bought it, he would of just returned it the next day.

 

Time saved, effort saved, money saved.

[Hot_Pocket]

People pirate games, I think, for mainly one reason:

-Why pay for a game when u can get it for the price of one cd-r?

 

--Its not that people don't have the money, they won't spend it on something the can get for free. Its like someone saying, ok here is something u can buy for $50.00 or here is the exact same thing for free. C'mon what would most people pick? Don't get me wrong. It is wrong to copy games, but when this option is presented to people they can't see what is right and instead choose (to them) the more sensible option.

 

Also, I believe that people who pirate games don't really want the game. I played JK for so much time so I couldn't wait for JO to come out. I bought the game the first day it came out and I didn't think it would work. My computer is old, but I didn't care. I wanted to play this game. Anyway, people who pirate games don't really want the game and don't really care if they played it or not.

 

Ok I think I'm done.......I think.....

[worm777]

Originally posted by Edward_Zeth

 

 

^ Are you a teenagaer that you can say all of this without knowing yourself? I'm 15, I don't have a job, and won't have one for some time. First off, kids have school, and homework, and other things to do. I don't have enough time for much in my usual day. Get up at 6 leave to school at 6:30, get home at 4, do hw, use the comp or watch tv maybe an hour or two, if i dont have a lot of hw, eat, shower, then sleep. I don't have time for a job. Secondly, what place is gonna hire a 15 year old? You have to be a least 16 in most places to get a job. And don't give me that garbage or cleanup crap, who the hell would want to pick up garbage for les than minimum wage, just to buy a game that they will only play on weekends or when they have some time off. And school doesnt ecxactly give you more time for a job. And even if I did have a job, I sure as hell wouldn't waste my money on games or 3D cards. I would buy clothes or something more useful. I get 10 or 20 bucks a week which i need for food and maybe for something else. I don't have money falling out of my ass for games. Nevertheless, I would buy a game if it were great, as would many other people ( I know MANY warezers, and most of them buy the games they enjoy, they warez because they dont wanna get ripped off.) I could go and pay 50 bucks for this game,then go home and see that it sucks ass, or i need a new 3d card, or some other issue that would either cost time or money. I DLed this game to see if it was fun and would work on my comp, and was planning to buy it if it was worth it (even though I dont have money coming out my ass). But it freezes every 2 minutes on me, even on lowest graphics, or in the ****ing menus, and i cant even play MP for more than 2 minutes. I have the graphics at worse than Quake 1 engine graphics and it still freezes within 2 minutes of booting up, even in the menu. If i had gone out to buy this, i would have been gyped. Thirdly, it isnt that hard to warez a game, so protecting it would be a waste of resources, of time and money. And most warezers would buy it anyway. Don't go making conclusions when you dont know the fatcs:swear:

 

I love it when thieves try to legitamize the fact that they are stealing. Who are you trying to convince us or yourself? I know two people with the warez copy and it freezes on them too. Some of the warez copies floating around are buggy I suspect. The bottom line is that it is called STEALING. Yes, you are a thief. I love it when Warez people say "I just downloaded it to see if I like it" or "I plan on buying it" I say BS!! Even if you do go out and decide to buy it you are still a thief. I would like to see you go steal a car and drive it around for a month then when the cops bust you I wanna see you say "Well I was just test driving it to see if I wanna buy it" By downloading warez you are contributing to the problem regardless if you buy the game or not. You create demand for warez games just by simply downloading them and/or talking about them and where to find them.

[Creston]

Originally posted by asim0s

but just imagined alla those 200 titles if i bought them

 

200x30 = 6000 dollars

 

sorry boys but cant afford that

 

 

That's no justification. I can't afford two cars either, so I don't have two.

You can't afford 200 games, that's fair enough, learn to choose, or get a second job.

 

There is NO, repeat, NO justification for using warez. None.

I do understand why it happens, however. At one point I was becoming SO irritated with Activision for continuously delaying the release of Bridge Commander here, that I searched some warez sites for it. I would still have bought it once it came out, I just couldn't wait to play it any longer. I never did find a warez copy, but that's probably because I really don't know any warez sites

I used to have a lot of copied games in my Amiga days, but even then I probably had about 200 originals that I had bought. The amount of PC games that I've bought must by now already surpass that..

 

But whichever way you look at it, it's still illegal, it's still theft, and there is no justification.

 

Creston

[Wakizashi]

To the people who claim they don't have the money to buy games (and pirate because of that): Well that's just too bad. Find a hobby you CAN afford. It isn't like it's everyone's 'right' to have games. Heck, I spent 2 years buying exactly 2 games, know why? Because I couldn't afford any. Well, patience was rewarded and now I have a job but that's a different story

[Prox Kolari]

The point isn't that some kid doesn't have the money for it -- it's that he doesn't have the money right ****ing now. Almost anybody (almost -- don't give me specific cases, there's always exceptions) with parents can work out some deal where they'll work up a $50 tab doing chores to buy JK2. But no, the point is, the money isn't in my hands right now, and I don't want to work, and the warez is right there, so what the hell.

 

That's really all the argument boils down to. No freedom of information speeches, no unfairness of the game industry and price setting, no I-was-gonna excuses. Warez is stealing because someone doesn't want to find a legit way of getting the game in the age of instant gratification.

[FWB]

Arguing that you can't afford it is bull****. If you can afford a system that can run this game in the first place then you can afford to buy it. FULL STOP.

[Emon]

By the way, I'd like to mention that Raven DEVELOPED the game, I don't really think CD copy protection was up to them. It's up to LEC.

[StormHammer]

Good to see a sensible debate on the subject.

 

Before I give you my opinion, just a reminder to all those warez junkies...we don't support or condone such activities on these forums. Any posts with warez links/sites will be deleted. Boasting about warezing Jedi Outcast is not appreciated here...it's not fair on the developers, who visit these forums, to have to read about people stealing the game over which they sweated blood and tears. Besides, it's likely to lead to you being banned from these forums.

 

Now, as far as I'm concerned...warez is illegal. It is taking something that someone else has made, and not paying for it. The argument of 'I just downloaded it to see what it was like before I bought it', is absolutely no different from you walking into a clothes store and taking (without paying) a pair of jeans home to try on. In other words, stealing.

 

As someone else said...if you can't afford it, then go without it. Or ask someone else to get it for you as a gift on your birthday if it means that much to you. I can't afford to buy all the games I want to get. I've got a long Wanted list, and I know I'm not getting every game listed there, because it would cost me £1500. That's money I can't really spare for my gaming habit. So I exert my right to consumer choice, and get the titles that appeal to me most. Sometimes I leave it until they come right down in price as a budget release - at least I know some money is going back to the developer. If it's a great title like Jedi Outcast, I preorder it, because I know it's worth every penny.

 

Anyone who says that warezing games doesn't impact the games industry, I have to say your just plain wrong. I've seen a lot of great developers and publishing houses hit the wall in recent years because they couldn't make enough money. Some of these developers made some really great games, but still went bankrupt. I'm not saying it's all down to warez - there are other economic factors to consider - but if someone is illegally copying and distributing your games, then that means for every illegal copy distributed you're losing money.

 

I don't think some of these people realise just how much money it takes to make a game. If you have 20 people working on a game for a year, each on an average salary of £20k (I expect they earn more than that, but this is just an example), then in salaries alone that game will cost you £400k. In the UK you can add a straight 10 per cent Employer's NI to that, which is another £40k that goes to the government. Then there are all your other overheads - office rental, taxes, insurances, sundries, software licensing, capital depreciation - I could go on, but I won't bore you. Let's give it a nice round figure of £500k for argument's sake (and that's probably really cheap at the price). If you see a 15 per cent return on every sale of the game, sold at say £30, then that's £4.50 per game that you as the developer can put back in your pot. Guess how many games you have to sell to just break even...111,112 games. When you sell your 111,113 rd game, hooray, you've made a profit of £4.50 for all of your hard work, and it can kickstart your next game's development costs.

 

A lot of titles are lucky to see sales of 50,000+. Only the most popular top name titles see sales over a million - but they are usually in development for longer. If you take 3 years to produce your title - triple the costs above, add inflation rates, and it's still dirt cheap at the price.

 

So, it does hurt games developers, who only see a percentage return on every sale of the game, because the publisher wants their cut, the retailer wants their cut, and the tax man invariably wants their piece of the pie too. These aren't people working in a sweat-shop in Taiwan churning out jeans to earn a few pennies every day...which keeps the costs of your jeans down. These are professional, skilled people who deserve to earn a decent salary for delivering the games we want to play, at a reasonable price, in a reasonable timeframe.

 

They have nothing but my respect for their position, and I have absolutely no problem supporting them by paying for something they have created.

 

The next time you warez something...just equate what you're doing now to the job you will eventually get, and the industry you will eventually work in. I don't care what industry it is...if someone steals your employer's creation and distributes it for free...they won't be in business for long...and you're not going to be in employment for long.

 

BTW, I'm moving this over to the Swamp where you can debate the issue further.

[roadkill1]

Software piracy isn't something that can be easily defined as "Stealing". But let's find out what stealing really means, shall we?

 

steal Pronunciation Key (stl)

v. stole, (stl) sto·len, (stln) steal·ing, steals

v. tr.

 

1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

 

So I guess you can say that pirating software could be infact known as stealing. I agree on that note that it is stealing. But it seems that when it comes to the discussion on the "warez people" who distribute the software, it's become a whole new ball game. What software piracy really is, is just sending a bunch of one's and zero's across the internet and onto other people's computers. But these one's and zero's belong to a company that can charge a large amount of money for their product.

 

It can sound pretty funny that today, we are being charged for electronic numbers. In some ways, this can be much different than stealing a viper or candy. Those things are real and physical, but games are NOT real. It's only a moral argument that surrounds software piracy. It's not like you will get arrested if you want to download some warez or burn a game from a friend. In my book, I would think police officers would want to spend their time trying to keep our streets and homes safe, than going door to door and looking through our computers and personal stuff, trying to find illegal software.

 

Actually, I shouldn't speek to soon. I heard a couple of months ago on some web site, that in the states, some senators were trying to pass a bill that would make this law, in which each computer you would perchace would have to have this special type of software installed on the system. This peice of software would be able to let law enforcements look onto your computer and search for any illegal types of software. Mp3's, warez, bootleg movies....etc. And if you did have any of those on your system, you could be charged or do jail time. And if you took that peice of software off, you could also be punished.

 

Sounds like something from a movie doesn't it? Well, maybe someday it could come true. But then again, the only reason why the states doesn't have this law, is because it would be invading the personal property and privacy of each individual who has a computer. So I don't think that will be happening any time soon.

 

Now lets talk about the people who make warez. My guess would be that they make warez because they can. Having the ability to program with different languages is like having God like abillities. I am infact a programer, but I do not make warez. I know VB, C/C++, and some HTML. If anyone knows how to program, especially in C/C++, they will know how much power they hold in their hands. In a programer's point a view, Windows is the playground, your compiler is your toy, and the peice of software you want to edit is the sandbox. There are no limits to what a programer can do in a windows enviroment, so making a warez version of a game is just a little project just to keep him busy. And just to let everyone know, people who make warez are not evil or demonic in any way. They like to make life a little more easy.

 

And speaking of easy, that is one reason why the internet exists. To make life a little bit more easy, we have Online shopping, research, streaming media, easy access to news and information, right at our fingertips. The internet is and will continue to grow and flurish. There's nothing much that can really stop it and it's too much of a big thing to monitor 24, 7.

 

Welcome to the 21st century where the internet is the place of freedom. Freedom of speach and actions.

 

It may seem that I'm for software piracy. But the only reason I am for it, is that it's pointless to argue against it. You must remember that technology is always a step ahead. And no matter what laws or enforcements are put in place to stop software piracy, there will always be someway to bypass it.

 

 

hehehe, flame away

 

[-=$LY=-]

i think that raven should have kept the Q3 cd-key!

most of my friends get warez games, and i have to admit i borrow there games but if i like a game i buy it! full stop. no i know im just as bad as the people who sell and make the warez copys for using them, but christ if someone offered you JKII before it was out in your country i know most of your would try it out! i know i did!

 

but i went out and bought it as soon as it was relesed! when i tryed the warez version it had no Q3 cd check, now i thought it had been removed by the crackers but only to my suprise that the retail version was the same! that really is stupid because CD-keys MAKE pirate gamers buy the game so the can play it online! because the key gens dont work online!

 

the last three games my m8 has brought round to my house ive bought

 

i played MOH:AA, C&C RENEGADE and JKII all before released, i feel like it was just like gettign a demo of a magazine it made me WANT to buy the game!

 

now im not writing this to justify warez im writing this as i have insight into warez and pirate users, and it is in my opinion if you want to keep your game selling and not getting ripped left right and center KEEP THE CD KEYS! especialy if its going to be a good online game!

 

as half of my warez friend bought Half-life,q3,avp2, mohaa ect,ect ALL FOR THE CD KEY SO THEY GOT NETPLAY!

[Pol Favre]

well said, creston.

 

i used to play this lil game called jazz jackrabbit 2, and there was an add-on released in holland but not in america. i couldn't find it anywhere, so i had a friend send it to me. i checked it out, then deleted it.

 

the only other warez game i've got is JK1, but i'd already paid lucasarts for it but couldn't wait for it to arrive with my copy of JKII.

[Zahriel Omega]

warez... dodgy subject.

 

Oh well i'm happy I bought my copy, money well spent and given to a good games developer who obviously take care and pride in what they do.

 

It's a shame there can't be more games developers making decent games like Raven, instead of piling out the same old repetitive profitspinners.

[Vorax]

I agree, the Q3 CD-Key scheme is beutiful. Everytime you play online, your key is validated.

 

I was shocked when I heard that it wasn't on JKII. Because it works so well, and doesn't cause any problems for installation. It isn't a CD obfuscation, it is a unique code that is sent to a master server.

 

Now,my thoughts:

 

In real life, I am Chief Architect in a software company, so this topic hits me personally. To those that think pirating is ...not really hurting the industry... You couldn't be more wrong.

 

Imagine spending 3-5 Million dollars developing something. You setup web sites, customer support reps, documentation, distribution, advertising, etc..etc. You release it. Then after all that you go to the servers to find that thousands of people are playing the game. You are happy, sales must be good. Then after the first week is over, the sales reports come back in that only a few hundred copies moved. But you saw thousands online? Now...you have to explain to your boss that the warez community got an early lead and cracked it quick. You pray for a miracle that the sales will meet targets....you are hurting, your company is hurting, peoples jobs are on the line...and really, all because a few idiots couldn't be honest. With stupid justifications like some of the ones that have been posted here.

 

Don't give us any crap about ...just wanting to try... or ...wanted to see if it would install... not sure if it is worth the money.... will buy it if I like it...

 

How bout someone steals something from you, like a car you are selling and they give you excuses like this:

 

I just wanted to try it...or I wanted to see if it would take unleaded gas....I am not sure if it is worth my money...if I like it, i will come back and give you the money...

 

It's all a big crock of BS.... You are stealing... if you are caught, I hope you go to jail... I hope something you make is stolen from you... I hope that you can change and do what the good and honest people are doing... save, work, whatever. If you want it that bad, you will take the time and effort to save and get it.

 

All you guys posting on here saying you do it, please send in your pictures so we can have someone arrest you, just like they post the pictures of guys that are stealing from corner stores.

 

There was a guy on here saying he had something stupid like $6000 dollars worth of stuff?? If you stole $6000 dollars from a bank, you would be up for 10-life in jail. Think about it.

 

For those that scrimp, save, wait until they can afford it, or do what ever to get the money. GOOD FOR YOU!!! I just pisses me off that it's the good people that end up paying for the bad people because the pirating drives prices up. Do yourselves a favour, if you know someone is using pirated software, tell them to buy it or delete it, cuz you don't want to pay for their games.

 

- Vorax