DF Series Storyline Continuity (Revised, and w/ Spoilers)

[Wes Janson SMR]

Hey, if statues can weild Lightsabers, I don't think Kyle finding a red one is all that far-fetched. All I know is that he couldn't have made one in that short ammount of time, and he probably didn't change the crystals in Yun's - you know, just for the sake of having a red 'Saber. Because as we all know, red is simply the color accessory for evil Jedi these days. ;-)

 

But I think Kyle got rid of Yun's. Personally, I'd think he would have continued to use Yun's if he hadn't already ditched it (supposedly) in MotS. I'm sticking with my reasons. Kyle built a new one because he didn't want to use the Dark Side-tanted one he nearly killed Mara with...

 

...And to further his Jedi training of course. '-)

 

But under no circumstances did, or would, Luke give Kyle's Lightsaber to another student. [This in response to a comment above]

[digl]

I force merged the thread started by Lord Odisse

[Lord Odisse]

Originally posted by digl

I force merged the thread started by Lord Odisse

 

You are indeed powerful, with a "force" power like that anything is possible

[ChrisTheS]

In response to Saient:

 

Just because Lucas says a thing is true about Star Wars does not mean that we have to believe him. There comes a point at which a setting reaches a critical mass, when its fan base is so great that it takes on an existence independent of its creator. Star Wars passed that critical mass long ago. Of the multitude Star Wars fans I've actually talked to about this (most of them former Black Sun Empire members), ALL of them would throw a fit if Lucas did anything that contradicted something that blatantly contradicted a mainstay of the Expanded Universe (such as Zahn's work). Now, Lucas can say what is canon and what is not, but if we, the fans, believe something to be part of the setting, then it will still be part of the setting to us even if Lucas does something to contradict it. Lucas has the right to say what he thinks the setting should be like, but we have an equal right to decide for ourselves what we choose to believe about events (for example, as far as I'm concerned midichlorians do not exist, and Anakin did not have an immaculate conception, because both of those concepts are bloody stupid).

 

In response to the issue of continuity:

I'm actually in the process of creating a 3d-rendered comic-book format adaptation of the entire Dark Forces series, which I'll be putting up online at my 3d art site (when I get more than the first 2 pages done, I'll tell everyone the link). I've had to work out some of the issues in continuity (specifically with regard to the difference in appearance of Kyle and Jan between Dark Forces and Jedi Knight), but the issue of saber colors between JK/MOTS/JO I've brushed over with the assumption that the saber colors used in MOTS are total BS. As far as I'm concerned, Kyle is still using Yun's saber in MOTS, and Mara is still using Anakin Skywalker's blue blade, regardless of what the actual fact of the graphics seem to indicate.

[AKPiggott]

Lemmie stick a couple of notes in for further argument:

 

Kyle definately has an ORANGE saber at the end of MotS, no question about it. I've played the game lot's of times and it is definately orange.

 

Also, doesn't one of the Jedi council members (the Indian woman with the weird hair I think) have a red saber? I'm almost certain of it.

[Kurgan]

The "immaculate conception" refers to the Catholic doctrine of Mary's being born without original sin, it has nothing to do with people being born without human fathers (people confuse this with the "virgin birth" of Christ all the time).

[Zek]

"I just ran across the whole "lightsabers don't work in water" deal in JK2's single player. Another anomaly... they worked fine in JK/MotS. I guess Kyle got this blue saber at K-Mart!"

 

I heard an explanation on this forum of how this was explained in Episode I... In the scene where they first meet Jar-Jar, Obi Wan doesn't use his lightsaber, because he left it on when they fell into water(I have to watch that movie again, don't remember that happening) and thus it didn't work for a little while afterwards or something. Apparently there was a removed scene where Qui-Gon scolds him for it.

[Kurgan]

If the scene was ever actually filmed, it isn't available to the public... it exists in the novelisation of Episode I (by Terry Brooks), and the Episode I screenplay. Those are canon sources (after the films) so it counts.

 

I've watched the Episode I DVD with all its extras, and no, the scene was NOT added back in, and cannot be viewed. It is simply left out of the movie.

 

HOWEVER.. my point was simply that since the Dark Forces series is EU, it is not bound to follow any issues of "canon." It simply doesn't matter. The fact that JK2 "follows canon" is fine, but it breaks with the whole rest of the series, where lightsabers worked fine in water. I also think that Episode 2 may explain this issue further...

 

One could explain away the differences between Episode I and the EU on the issue of underwater sabers by saying that sometime after the events of Episode I, waterproof sabers were perfected, or else Obi-Wan's saber was a low quality model, unsuited for that type of thing.

[Zek]

In terms of Star Wars physics, I honestly couldn't care less if they made JK2 closer to the movie in that regard than the previous games were. What I care about is when they hurt the continuity of the series in an attempt to change something that is in EU but unacceptable in official Star Wars(which is my best guess as to why they insisted on making Kyle's saber blue). If I'm not mistaken, there isn't a saber in the singleplayer game that isn't blue, green or red. JK and MotS were most definitely placed in the EU, so it seems ridiculous to me that they would try to get closer to the movie in JK2. This is further demonstrated by the characters; Mara is gone without a trace(much like Jan in MotS), and more movie characters were added in(Luke and Lando, though they're in EU too). This is even dumber considering the whole storyline is based on things like the New Republic and the Jedi Academy anyway.

 

Changing subjects...

 

No one can deny that Star Wars has evolved beyond the movies, but it seems some people here consider everything not made by Lucas to be "wrong". It has to be understood that Star Wars and the Star Wars EU are two entirely separate things, now so more than ever. The "real" Star Wars is Episodes 1-6. Anything Lucas says is just how it is, no room for argument.

 

The EU has grown into its own separate entity. Nothing Lucas says matters here anymore, really; the original 3 movies were the base for the EU, and now it's entirely separate and no one cares what Lucas tries to do to the series anymore. Some of the books are so mainstream that they might as well be official in the eyes of many Star Wars fans, and personally I dislike it when Lucas contradicts well-established EU concepts like different colored sabers. It's his series and he can do what he wants with it, but people who say the EU means nothing because Lucas doesn't acknowledge it are missing the point.

[Camerhil]

There's one other possible explanation for the whole lightsaber colour debate. Have you noticed that it's only the learners who use blue sabers? Luke has one in Empire before he's a fully fledged Jedi, but when he makes his own (when his powers have matured) it changes colour to green.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Obi-Wan's saber in TPM blue, and Qui-Gonn's green? Haven't watched this film a lot, so I can't really remember. If so, this does suggest that blue is the learner's colour.

 

It would then make sense for Kyle to adopt a blue saber when re-learning the force. It might also explain Yun's yellow saber as a dark side equivalent. You could argue that Darth Maul should then have had a yellow saber, but since he's a fully-fledged Darth, he'd probably qualify for a nice big red one all of his own.

 

As for purple sabers, well, some people just have to be different. It makes me laugh picturing Jackson having a face off with Lucas, saying something like "All the candy-ass white men have their own colours, but what about the bruthas? If I can't have a black saber, I guess purple will have to do".

 

Or maybe not.

[AKPiggott]

Not just learners, old Ben Kenobi used a blue one.

[Camerhil]

Oh God Dammit

 

There is absolutely no way you could describe him as a learner. Unless, of course, you think about the idea that he gave up being a Jedi after screwing up Anakin's education so royally, and thus never switched his saber. But this is dodgy, I admit.

 

Oh well, and it seemed like such a good idea...

[Ushgarak]

Can someone tell me why Morgan Katarn appears as a ghost in JO? Even assuming that the Valley of the Jedi allows ghost form outside the normal rules of the film (in which the only people that do it are the three people from the OT), shouln't it be Rahn? Morgan was never a Jedi.

[Wes Janson SMR]

...Or was he?...

 

*cue sinister music*

[Covax]

Minor Point:

 

I DO think that EU continuity does impact on the overall aspect of the films. Mara Jade, for example, was added into the Special Edition of RotJ. I have no idea if she was purely Zhan's creation or a never-used Lucas plotline, but she has E.U. origins.

 

Heck, purists can even debate that the S.E. films are out of cannon, just look at the 'who shot Greedo' debates.

[Kurgan]

Mara Jade, for example, was added into the Special Edition of RotJ.

 

Where?

[Wes Janson SMR]

He's probably talking about the red-haired alien dancer in Jabba's palice - who also did a little flirting with Boba Fett.

 

But her being Mara is purely speculation. Boba and the alien singers were given slightly larger rolls on purprose. But I don't think that was Mara.

 

Hmm.. Let's check the credits.

[Vestril]

A very minor point to DigitalVapor's MUCH earlier post, Desann and Kyle first met just before Tavion did her dirty little business, Desann was suprised to see Kyle as such a weak looking person 'THIS is the great Kyle Katarn??'

 

And a note about EU VS 'Real' Star Wars. You basically have to divide the two in your mind, because GL has chosen to ignore the Expanded Universe, and I, a die-hard fan of the books, can totally understand this, I mean there is just some EU stuff that is crap, and just plain doesn't make sense, and why should he, the guy that made all of this up, change his plans for 3rd rate writing (again, a lot of it was great, but some is just plain bad *cough cough* Jedi Academy Series *cough cough*

 

The only real hitch to that is that Coruscant appeared in Heir to the Empire before it ever appeared in a movie, but actually Lucas made it up and gave Zahn two choices for names of the planets (I forget what the other was). And to those who have already judged Episode I and things like Jar-Jar and midichlorians as crap, keep in mind that this movie is part of a series, two movies of which you haven't seen.

[ChrisTheS]

Originally posted by Kurgan

The "immaculate conception" refers to the Catholic doctrine of Mary's being born without original sin, it has nothing to do with people being born without human fathers (people confuse this with the "virgin birth" of Christ all the time).

 

Correction accepted. I actually knew that, but since I wrote that post late at night it slipped my attention...

 

-- ChrisTheS

[ChrisTheS]

Originally posted by Vestril

 

And a note about EU VS 'Real' Star Wars. You basically have to divide the two in your mind, because GL has chosen to ignore the Expanded Universe, and I, a die-hard fan of the books, can totally understand this, I mean there is just some EU stuff that is crap, and just plain doesn't make sense, and why should he, the guy that made all of this up, change his plans for 3rd rate writing (again, a lot of it was great, but some is just plain bad *cough cough* Jedi Academy Series *cough cough*

 

I am of the opinion that if he didn't intend the stuff that became the Expanded Universe to be a 'real' part of the setting, he should never have approved Heir to the Empire in the first place. By allowing the Expanded Universe to exist, he essentially said "Fine, this stuff is now a part of my setting, and I don't have a problem with that." Anything that he DID have a problem with, he should have said so and prevented from it from reaching the public (I have to agree on the issues of low quality work... but in those cases he should have said, flat-out, "I don't like this, so you can't publish it.") But once he's put the stamp of approval on it, so to speak, he ought to hold himself to it. He should take an example from Tolkien; JRRT was meticulous about not contradicting any part of his own work that had been previously published, and I don't see how a filmmaker should be any different from an author.

 

Of course, 'ought' and 'is' are entirely different, and it's plain that Lucas has allowed the fact that he owns a multi-million-dollar concept go to his head, more's the pity.

 

And to those who have already judged Episode I and things like Jar-Jar and midichlorians as crap, keep in mind that this movie is part of a series, two movies of which you haven't seen.

 

A six-part series, mind, FOUR of which we HAVE already seen, in which Lucas has contradicted himself at least twice (as far as I know... probably more, but I haven't seen TPM enough to have noticed more specifics).

(And personally, I don't have any problem with Jar-Jar... although the fact that he's a blatant stand-in for C3PO's comic relief role would have been more redeeming had the droid not then appeared in the movie...)

[farmerBob]

Everybody seems to assume that light saber's are impervious to the effects of wear and tear brought about by time and usage. There's nothing that says light sabers don't wear out. I know if I was a jedi, I'd be practicing with mine constantly. I would expect to build a new one every 5 years or so AT LEAST. And that assumes it doesn't get smashed by a rock or some other unfortunate turn of events (remember when Boc destroyed Kyle's saber in JK1?) !!!

 

As for Jerec popping out of nowhere (assuming Vader wiped out most of the powerful jedi), I like to think that Palpatine had a few master apprentices stationed out in "back water" areas, to pull out of his pocket in case something happened to Vader. It would definitely explain why Jerec seemed to inherit a lot of Imperial toys and power.

 

My comments on the timeline:

1. In JK1, Kyle defeats Jerec and promptly goes back to his old merc trade... not much room for jedi values in that profession, PLUS it would be hard to earn the trust of certain shadier individuals if you were a known jedi.

2. JK2 shakes up Kyle a lot and his relationship with Jan really gets him thinking about what really is important in life. Making some important life-style decisions, Kyle trains under Luke after his tropical vacation with Jan.

3. Finally, Kyle is skilled enough to take on his first apprentice, Mara, and eventually we get MOTS.

 

It just doesn't make sense for Kyle to become powerful and knowledgable enough to actually train another jedi, and then totally forget EVERYTHING, like he did at the beginning of JK2. All logic points to JK1, JK2, then MOTS. (Kyle even LOOKS younger in JK2 than MOTS)

[Wes Janson SMR]

Lightsabers are very prone to wear and tear - and must be maintained with care. But if what you're saying is true, then Luke should have replaced his 'Saber a loooogn-arsed time ago. Jedi can keep their Lightsabers up to specs without the need to rebuild a new one. It's a part of their way of life. A Force-imbuned Lightsaber is a part of that Jedi, and it's been shown (in the books) that Lightsabers indeed last a long time. And if their not in use (for years), wear and tear are at a minimum.

 

I still think that Mara's not a student of Kyle by any means. I'm still sticking by my idea that Kyle and Mara had come to that Rebel base at the same time (purely coincidental), and for some reason, were stuck there. Perhapse there was Remnent activity, and they didn't want anyone to alert them to their presence... Which happened anyway.

 

Mara found out about Kyle's abilities and situation, him simply being an average Joe, simply trying to cope with his abilities. Mara would sell her franchise before training as a Jedi student under Skywalker, so she asked Kyle for tips, since she's basically in the same boat.

 

Once they get into it, Kyle finds that he has a lot to offer Mara in the way of advice and techniques he'd learnt over the years. But just when they really get into it, Remnant forces attack, and force Alliance crews off the base. Kyle stumbles on the new Sith crap, whyle Mara takes it upon herself to find, and deal with Kyle. She's the only one who's close enough - with any knowledge of the man. And again, Skywalker and his Jedi Praxeum wouldn't be her first choice for help.

 

She finally tracks Kyle down. But by the time she gets to him, he's gone mad from all the Dark Side karma. The two had become friends during their time on the base - and they were allies on the war front of the Galaxy.

 

Mara talked some sense back into Kyle, and he kicked his own arse for allowing himself to get so involved with the Dark power. He goes to Luke for guidance - Mara probably it was a good idea, too seeing as Kyle almost chopped her in two.

 

Kyle builds his own Lightsaber, moving on from Yun's. But during his training, he probably found that he wasn't very happy. And he had nearly fallen completely to the Dark Side twice. He probably thought it best to quit now, before he turned bad perminently. He gave his 'Saber to Luke, and willed his personal connection to the Force away. His powers went dormant after a long time of non-use and meditation. And he continued to make his living at what he does best: hardcore mercenary work. Go in, shoot 'em up, get the superweapon plans, and get the hell out. And ask questions when applicable.

 

And here we are at Jedi Knight II.

 

Where was Jan in all of this? Well, during the previous games, Jan and Kyle were strictly professional, and were good friends (after all, he saved her arse from the Empire). While he was playing Mr. Jedi during MotS, she probably had her own life to deal with. You saw Kyle's surprise when she saved him at the beginning of JK1 - so they're not together all the time anyway.

 

They probably got back together when he started working agian.

 

And as for Mara's lack of appearance in JK2, again, she has her own life. I'm not sure if she's still with Karde during this game, but if not, she's too busy expanding her own trading business. She probably wouldn't drop everything just to say, "Hey, Kyle!" Especially when it was between the Empire and New Republic.

 

But you never know what'll happen in the next expansion pack, or game.

 

And, my theory ends.

[Vestril]

A six-part series, mind, FOUR of which we HAVE already seen, in which Lucas has contradicted himself at least twice (as far as I know... probably more, but I haven't seen TPM enough to have noticed more specifics).

 

When does he contradict himself (honestly curious) and since TPM is as far from the new series as you can get, and you haven't seen any transition it's hard to say. My point about Ep 1 comes basically from a review Harry Knowles gave Ep2 after seeing a rough cut, he stated (I believe) that Episode 1 made a good deal more sense after having seen it, and it opened me up to the posibility that there is a lot going on we don't know about (Darth Vader is such a typical bad guy, all bad, no redeeming qualities, how boring--whooooooops lol).

 

And you make a valid point about the Star Wars literature, but why deprive the fans of their fun just so you can be a perfectionist, it seems simpler to make two seperate worlds. More than that the books were all a marketing ploy, don't you realize that? Think of the timing, they were just to get people gradually more interested in Star Wars and more and more curious about what went on before the movies happened. If you watch the documentaries about TPM Lucas was prepping his tech well before he made the movie, I imagine he did the same to his audience. It worked for me, if the books hadn't come out, and been out for such a long time I never would have been as hardcore a fan. To accomplish that you have to consistently pump books out, and that means dropping to second rate authors (and occasionally first rate =). You can say what you will, but it's easy to criticize when you've never made a movie, or an impact on the scale that George Lucas has, and few people have done that, so I would say that few people have room to criticize the man, he does a good job, even if someone needs to rewrite his trite, trite dialogue =P (ok, I'm not THAT ironic...)

[Vestril]

Oh, one other point about the whole books-as-a-marketing-ploy theory, if you look at the timing of the NJO, and it's decidedly organized nature, you can see that it's a way of selling a lot of books and keeping SW fans happy between films =) It started shortly after TMP was released, and will end shortly before Ep3 is released *thinks* I wonder if that's just a coincidence...

[AKPiggott]

Regarding EU having an impact on film:

 

Didn't a ship from Shadows of the Empire briefly appear in A New Hope SE?