E-Mail from an employee of RavenSoft (unofficial patch information)

[Hitogeki]

Realism or not who cares, It is a video game.

 

The only thing I want to limit the power of the guns, in all honesty they are too powerful. If someone is using absorb and the heavier guns they are rather invincible. First of all you cant pull away their guns and the only way to stop the absorb quick enough is drain, most of the time I dont use drain cause I use the light side of the force. With that said I think they should definatelly add a multiplayer mode or option that makes it so if you use the heavier guns then you cannot use the force.

 

Take the movies for example, You rarely see jedi using guns in the movies and in the first episode none of the jedi had guns. Although alot of the parts in the first episode were stupid and pointless (pod races and jar jar ugh), It was how star wars was originally meant to be (I mean the light saber battles and what not). We didnt have the technology to do some of the amazing things we can now in movies.

 

Im not saying rip the guns out of the game, but balance out their power. Keep the game unique and dont make it quake.

[Mattman]

I'm certainly not advocating the complete nerfing of gun users, my biggest problem with saber users vs gun users is simply that saber users have to put A LOT of force points into the ability to effectively use the saber, whereas gun users who are not planning on user their saber (much) don't need to worry about that as much. This effectively gives them an extra advantage of having, in a sense, more force points than the saber user. It's currently a disadvantage, on a gun server, for one to choose to max out their saber skills...

 

I am concerned for the viability of gun users after a patch, mostly because completely taking away their force powers would be a huge hit in their mobility, mostly due to the loss of force jump. That's why I suggested a jetpack of some sorts, as an incentive. It would allow the gun user to have even better mobility than a jedi, but at the loss of the other force powers. Also maybe something to compesate for force speed as well (stims maybe?) so that jedi don't dominate CTF and CTY.

 

Having the sabers to be vastly better than guns would be just as lame as the current situation, where guns are vastly better than sabers. I only seek to balance the two. Though the saber will be harder to master.

[Kurgan]

U said that if u adjust the weapons a bit the saber becomes the best weapon in the game?

 

The way it is now the gun users have a huge advantage over saber users. Balancing this will not make the guns useless.

 

 

Here is what I really think:

 

The saber is just another weapon. There is no reason that is has to be able to hold its own against all other weapons. The ability to duel saber to saber is already built into the game, as is the ability to use sabers only. As it is, the saber is a poor choice in certain combat situations, and those who ignore this fact, do so at their own peril!

 

I think that some people feel that the game should be balanced in such a way, that you can join a multiplayer server where people who use all of the other weapons will be on equal footing with those who use the saber exclusively. I however, disagree.

 

How would it be if for example, the game was balanced in such a way that I could just use the rocket launcher exclusively and win game after game, since it was as powerful as all the other weapons? True, you could make every weapon equally powerful, but then what is the point in having so many weapons (except eye candy)? As it is, certain weapons are good in certain situations, encouraging people to trade off.

 

So many folks complain about people who "whore" (I hate that word usage) by using the same weapon/power/method of killing over and over again. Well unless you differentiate weapons, this is going to happen more often. Why switch weapons if the one you are using is good in any in all situations, against all foes?

 

I don't see any reason (except if this were a class based mod) why this should be the case. A lot of people are arguing (as you are) that sabers are too weak compared to guns, but I think that wishing for the above is unrealistic, unless, it's a mod.

 

The game itself is balanced in such a way that no one weapon should be able to dominate. Thus this encourages people to use a variety of weapons, force powers, and tactics, in order to win. This of course does not stop a person from winning repeatedly using one weapon against shall we say "less experienced players" who don't know how to counter that weapon/power (but that's a problem for any FPS game).

 

The whole reason I'm against the "jedi simulator" model of MP for JK2 is that it seems to assume that the game must be balanced in such a way that sabers either dominate guns, or a saber user never needs to touch any other weapon in order to win.

 

I never said that no tweaks were necessary, I just said that this kind of logic in the balance of the game misses the whole point. If this were simply a game of Jedi Knights vs. Jedi Knights with sabers, then we wouldn't have all these other weapons and gadgets. As it is, it's about variety and balance, and I think that's perfectly fine. JK/MotS were the same way.

 

Personally I like playing in normal FFA games. There is a lot more diversity then in Saber only games.

 

I agree. And I remind everyone that they can still play sabers only if they chose, and they can have dueling servers to avoid being shot by people while they are waiting for a duel. ; )

 

Kurgan, if you think weakening the explosive weapons a bit will make everyone use sabers, you are very sorely mistaken. I was very surprised to discover how many people will use the regular blasterfire weapons, even against good saber users; pull their weapons and they'll shoot at you with the bryar. The concept of using the saber just disgusts them, even if they don't have an overpowered gun. It makes me sad every time I crouch down with my saber and get the other person to kill themselves with their repeater or even bryar(has happened a number of times).

 

My only real complaint are with the people who insist on using the saber in all situations, even when the saber is not the best choice, and then insisit that this is the only worthy method of play. They are the ones clamoring for the game to be more like star wars, and for guns to be toned down, etc. I love sabers, I use them a lot, but I figure the other weapons should also be used if they are available. Obviously people use them now, because they help you win, they are tools and tactics built into the competative nature of multiplayer. I think you would agree, that if the saber indeed were the ultimate weapon, eventually, all players would use it, because it would be the best tactic to win. The only ones who would not, would be bored people, and "less experienced players." Right?

 

Obviously there are a lot of ways gameplay COULD be changed in theory, but I don't think that making the saber stronger and guns weaker is the answer to all our problems.

 

People also seem to be forgetting an important point here:

 

The saber by itself is quite weak (as any weapon without the force ultimately is). Think about it.. how good would you do in a FFA game, if you just used the saber, nothing else.. no powerups, no force, no gadgets. Nobody but a masochist gamer would play that way in a full force match.

 

No, instead, most people, even the ones who use nothing but saber in a FFA game, will use the FORCE (read: multiple force powers) to aid their use of the saber.

 

But then what do users of other weapons do? They also use the force... so the force helps to enhance their use of whatever weapon. A person with the stun baton, can still be quite threatening and powerful, if they make clever use of gadgets, powerups and the force.

 

That throws a whole new dimension into it, but people should think about this. If you make the saber stronger or weaker, it's still backed up with force, increasing its overall effectivness. Same with guns.

 

This could get into issues of NF fighting (with all weapons). I don't know, maybe it is unbalanced in that respect, since you can't push away rockets. But again, it seems to me if you want to win in that situation, you can't rely soley on the saber. Maybe a "No Force Guns+Sabers Balancing Mod" is in order?

 

Something to think about...

[GalacticBulge]

One thing that should have been mentioned is that the MP saber battles should mimic the SP ones. The SP battles were simply unbelievable.

 

I guess I could fire off an email. I'm sure Raven has heard about that, though. hehe

[DannyDiplo]

I think Kurgan makes some good points, but misses out on the bigger picture... The fact is there are already plenty of multiplayer guns based FPS games, and what attracts people to JK2 is using the saber as it's pretty unique. However, if when people use it they are totally overwhelmed by gunners, then they either have to resort to using guns or stick with playing duels. If JK2 multiplayer just ends up being predominanatly weapons based, then frankly there are better games out there which are much more suitable and balanced for deathmatch and CTF (Unreal Tournament, Quake3 Arena, and forthcoming UT 2003). People want to use sabers precisely because they're not just another weapon!

[Zek]

TheDarkSide, I realize that. What I was saying is that if people were forced to make a choice between Sabers and Force or being able to pick up items, the Jedi would be the vastly superior class and most everyone would pick it. If the Gunners started with every gun or something, it might be more balanced(if the repeater is fixed, that is). I imagine someone will mod a game mode just like this if Raven doesn't include it; I just hope there are enough people playing it.

[d3vin]

I dont think the game has been out long enough to judge balance in the long term.

 

force powers seem pretty even too me, maybe light side a little stronger in ffa w/guns available but hard to say.

 

the acrobatics and rolls available to saber users is very nice.

 

Personally i play with both guns and saber, contstantly switching back and forth depending on situtation. This is the most fun i ever had with a video game.

 

I would very much hate to be limited to what weapons i could use. I think the great variety of options simultaneously available make this my favorite deathmatch game of all.

[Canis_Aureus]

D66 the T2 curse is nothing but urban myth. I have played T2 since the day it got out and still play in my tribe... almost évery day. Tribes2 has never been more playable than it is now. It has never been more balanced than it is now and it has never been more stable than it is now. The next patch will make some changes again but mostly adress bugs.

 

I disagree with your statement about not changing game mechanics. I know that people will have to get used to the new mechanics, but if the game becomes more playable there simply isn't any excuse for not beeing happy about it. I guess most companies won't do that stuff because the support they give is limited to removing bugs.

 

I am really pleased with companies who listen to the community and change things that needs to be changed. Many people left Tribes2 because it was too hard to learn. I played starsiege tribes too and had little trouble adapting to the environment.

 

There were also the people who flamed Tribes2 for beeing too different from Tribes1... the skiing speed was a major issue. BUT in terms of good gameplay the changes Dynamix made were really good. The 1337 players were just mad because they couldn't do their insane fast caps any longer. I found it great as the gameplay and teamwork was improved so much by the changes.

 

And for JO... they mention the option of deciding to be either Jedi OR gun user and THAT WILL add to the gameplay. It will balance things more, make jedis and gun users different and I look forward to this improvement.

[d3vin]

I wish that the JK2:JO is balanced in such a way that a straght gun user, a straight saber user, and a hybrid saber/gun all are competively equal.

 

This could be the case now. I really dont know what type would be favored at the present, if any.

 

That would allow people to play the style of their preference and not insist on removing other people's preferences.

[Ascari]

I would like to see some sort of CounterStrike modification ( call me crazy ) in Jedi Knight

 

 

Where the Jedi's have to protect/free persons.

On the other side u have players like Boba fett for instance.

 

With jetpacks so they can jump as high as the Jedi's and some balanced weapons that are equal to the saber.

 

Might be a long shot though

 

 

Basicly I think ffa is good, short for the "walk as fast backwards as forward" and the alt. fire on the repeater ( and the shotgun weapon ). And the dark side drain/light side heal issue.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by d3vin

I wish that the JK2:JO is balanced in such a way that a straght gun user, a straight saber user, and a hybrid saber/gun all are competively equal.

 

That can never be possible. Raven wanted to do this for the first inital release, but after all that effort, it still didn't work. Just face it: a skilled guy with rocket launcher/repeater will always kill a straight saberist. That saber guy might force_push the rocket away, but don't forget that rocket/repeater guy will have force powers too, and he'd still have the advantage then. Just look at all the posts on this forum about saberists complaining how much they don't like those "nasty gunners who just want to frag".

 

That's why Raven is concentrating on the "guns only/sabers only" or "guns no force/sabers and force" options.

[Zodiac]

Originally posted by Ascari

I would like to see some sort of CounterStrike modification ( call me crazy ) in Jedi Knight

 

 

Where the Jedi's have to protect/free persons.

On the other side u have players like Boba fett for instance.

 

With jetpacks so they can jump as high as the Jedi's and some balanced weapons that are equal to the saber.

 

Might be a long shot though

 

YOU ARE CRAZY!!!

 

heh nah, I'd really like to see a co-op team mod too!! That'd be great. And I hope the rumors are true and they're actually working on one.

[Sartis]

Guns VS Sabers is not balanced, and I'm sure 99% of the people who play this game do not look as though the Saber is just another weapon, to alot of people its the only weapon they want to use. Why? because they want to do the 'Jedi' thing.

 

The whole problem is gunners with the same/more force powers than the person who only uses the Saber, personally I look forward to the Gunner/Jedi modes, there is no reason why someone who can kill 5 people with 3 clicks 10 feet away should have the same advantages as the Saberists. Lets be reasonable here we all know there is 3 types of players out there the Saberists, Hybrids, and Gunners. Majority of the people that play JO want to just use saber. The other Majority like using guns, then there is the middle people the Hybrids who like to use both but there isn't very many of them numbers are growing.

 

I do find though Making the gunners move slower with bigger guns rather over nerfing, if they have no force powers sure thats a good balancing tactic, but start making them move alot slower since they have a bigger gun and then you are just killing off all the Gunners. Running backwards not as fast ok sure I can understand that.

[Kurgan]

I think Kurgan makes some good points, but misses out on the bigger picture... The fact is there are already plenty of multiplayer guns based FPS games, and what attracts people to JK2 is using the saber as it's pretty unique.

 

Danny, here's the problem.. this mythical Jedi Lightsabers only game that people want to roleplay in.. doesn't exist.

 

JK2 is NOT that kind of game. The fact that it features all those other weapons, and the saber does NOT dominate, is proof that the developers never intended to create such a light-saber only game. Hence.. if people want lightsaber only battles, they can use the options already available to them, or they can make mods.. or find another game to play.

 

It seems like a few people are wishing for JK2 to become the game they never got. Trouble is, it's such a drastic change from what the developers started with, I dunno if it's even a realistic thing to expect.

 

Hopefully the roleplayers will be satisfied when SW Galaxies and KOTOR come out....

[Sartis]

I don't think they wanted a Saber dominated game, but I do believe they wanted Saber people to be able to stand they're ground vs gunners. I seriously believe they wanted a more balanced game than it is now, and that is proven by the Email.

 

The 'balancing' may ruin the game for some, but the majority 80% it seems from the Patch Thread want the Guns vs Sabers balanced. on another note 99% want sabers more like SP, that there tells you this game is majorly about the sabers.

 

I see why your concerned Kurgan, but Raven has done a good job so far maybe have some more faith in them. I'm sure they won't cripple gun users to death, if they do there is alot of other shooter FPS's out there for them. But this is the only worthwhile saber FPS.

 

Also its not all about the 'roleplaying', alot of the saberists use it because they like the saber, they came to the game because of hte saber and its uniqueness, not the Imperial Repeater.

 

Anyways we could go on forever with this thread back and forth how about we agree to disagree on what we find fun in JO? In the end Ravensoft will do what they want to do.

[ZeroXcape]

Like I always said back in the day of Dark Forces II: "If you want to play with guns, go buy Quake 2."

 

Jedi Knight / Jedi Knight II == are about the saber.

[Canis_Aureus]

If the patch does indeed change what those notes said the game will be more fun. If you have to be either Jedi or Gun User there IS a difference between the two other than the one just beeing more powerful. The gun users will still have the advantage of range and win most of the time I think, BUT the Jedis will at least be special and be more fun to play. I really hope they implemet this right... It wouldn't make Jedis and Gun Users equal, but it would make playing a Jedi with a saber only much more fun and rewarding.

[Ascari]

Concluding from Raven's e-mail I have high hopes for the patch.

 

And i'm still gonna play on gun servers with my saber, just for the fun of tripping them over my trip mines

[Creston]

Originally posted by D66

 

Have we learned Nothing from Tribes 2?

 

 

 

Yes we have.

 

1) Sierra sucks the sweat of a dead man's *****

2) Patching a game before actually TESTING your patch in any kind of beta setup is a VERY Bad Idea.

3) Then releasing a patch to REMOVE your previous ****ty patch is an even MORE stupid idea, especially if it DOESN'T WORK!

4) Laming the graphics and increasing the fog to the level of a very foggy morning in the UK, just so that people with their p100 can have an "equal playing field", does not endear you to people who just spent 400 dollars in upgrading their computer to see your game in all it's splendor.

5) Refusing to listen to your fans, and refusing to see what the MAJORITY wants, then going with what the very very very very small MINORITY wants, is a Bad Idea .

6) Continuously taking a crap at your game, then after a year or so complaining that it stinks of poo, only to justify your new game (Tribes ; Fast Attack) which "Doesn't have all the crap stuff that we f*cked up in Tribes 2" really means "Oh all you suckers, we need more money, come buy more of our rather paltry product, so we can kick you in the nuts once more time!

 

 

Read the forums. Notice just how MANY people are asking for most of these changes. Notice just how FEW saberers there are in any FFA game, and how very rarely they wind up at the top of the rankings. Notice how MANY repeater alt fire spammers, force drain / grippers etc there are. This means something.

Here's another piece of evidence. Set up a game with bots only, Lando vs Kyle / Luke / Desann on Jedi Master. Even if he's only 1, Lando still wins. Why? Because he never switches to a lightsaber, that's why. This is the starwars universe. Not the Quake universe. A lightsaber should MEAN something.

 

Besides, I do feel that ChangKhan implied that this would be an OPTION to run in MP, not a total change of the FFA as it is now. As such, it would be a similar thing to 'saber only', or 'no force powers'.

 

Leaving these changes to the "mod community" as you stated, would mean two things :

 

1) It would take approximately two years to come out, if at all done well (no disrespect intended to the Mod community, but I think we all know that any DECENT mod of a large scale simply takes a whole lot of time).

 

2) It would mean that every server eventually runs a different mod, meaning you can join only a very select few.

 

I think having Raven do it is far preferable.

 

Go Raven, make us that patch!

 

PS, no insults intended anywhere, apologies if they came across as such.

 

Creston

[Zek]

Yeah, Sierra made some pretty retarded deciso---Tribes Fast Attack?

 

*reads a preview*

 

Must...Buy...New...Tribes...Game...

 

Tribes-induced hypnosis aside, there were some questionable decisions in Tribes 2 history, but it's still one of the best FPS games I own, and I actually played it a good deal to tide myself over for JK2. The main reason I don't play it anymore is because of the team-based nature which pretty much forced you to either play as a loner and hope they have bad defense, or join a tribe and play on private servers. I never had that kind of dedication, but I imagine it's much different than the every-man-for-himself public servers.

 

Tribes Fast Attack might be interesting; one of my favorite things about the Tribes series is the speed and freedom of movement. I'll have to see how it turns out.

 

What were we talking about again?

[RabidPlatypus]

a clone wars mod would be good, team LMS one team is jedis with saber only and force powers of their choice. One team is mandalorian armor peeps with jetpacks to replace force jump along with cool weapons. Add in 16-32 players in an outdoor arena with plenty of obstacles and you've got a kick ass mod.

[Trienco]

Originally posted by RabidPlatypus

a clone wars mod would be good, team LMS one team is jedis with saber only and force powers of their choice. One team is mandalorian armor peeps with jetpacks to replace force jump along with cool weapons. Add in 16-32 players in an outdoor arena with plenty of obstacles and you've got a kick ass mod.

 

glad to see im not alone with that *gg*. btw. im trying to find some people (and a server) to actually test how good it would work (by having the jedi as they are and giving the mand. the corresponding force powers for now.. grip1, lightning 1or2, jump3). but it would take a lot of discipline of both sides not to use things they wont have in the mod (no picking up stuff for jedi and not using push/pull for mand. other than for defense against it... later the range of those will be decreased and should only be dangerous if youre stupid enough to come to close *g*).

[Hell Raiser]

Ok, is it bad joo joo to be a gunner AND a saberer?

 

I wanna play with sabers, I join a Duel server. Simple as that.

 

I wanna frag with guns and force, I join a FFA server. Depending on the situation, I'll whip out my saber, maybe even get a private duel in.

 

Why can't you (certian) people do the same?!?

 

Ok, maybe a duel server isn't perfect FFA Saber combat. Then again, who would want a mosh pit made of Jedi?

 

All that needs to be done, IMHO, is to include more filtering options in the in-game browser. Personally I'd prefer a filter for every known server option, but that's just me lookin for a Duel server with a frag limit of 1 and no force. I spend a good 10 minutes lookin for a server with the options I want, mostly because after you're done lookin at the server info, it takes you back to the top of the list. *grumble grumble*

 

If you get it so people can find the servers with the options they want to play in, *gasp* they won't complain!

[VaderJM]

All of you saying "If you want to use guns, go play quake" why don't you just cut it out. Guns are in JO, they were meant to be in JO, and since they're there I will use them whenever and however I damn well please.

[Trienco]

Originally posted by Hell Raiser

Ok, is it bad joo joo to be a gunner AND a saberer?

 

Ok, maybe a duel server isn't perfect FFA Saber combat. Then again, who would want a mosh pit made of Jedi?

 

 

first there would have to be a way to set a duel server that it acts like a challenge in ffa. you either have no force (no jump, no kick, no throw) or all force (drain, grip, lightning *yawn*).

 

the reason so many have their duels on ffa servers is that a challenge there is the way duel servers should be (or at least be able to be). also: just agree on not using the force and you can have multiple duels instead of waiting (in theory, will never work in a real game anyway)