Elite Force 2 and the Quake 3 engine

[psycoglass]

Has anyone heard about the New Elite Force game? It is still using the Quake 3 engine, I think this is a big mistake. I think they should have used something like the Unreal 2 Engine or the Doom 3 engine, The Quake 3 engine games look great but it is really getting old. We need something else.

[Cyclone]

Actually, I don't think that they have access to the Doom III engine yet, (Raven does for Quake IV). So I guess the Q3A engine will have to do.

 

Besides, Ritual has already used Id engines for all of their games, so I would not expect them to change over to something else like the Unreal II engine.

 

Besides, They can reuse all of that Elite Force components if they stay with Q3a. Since Activision owns Raven (and I suspect Ritual), there won't be any problems with that.

 

Cyclone

[StormHammer]

Yep, I've heard about it, and seen the screenshots, and...I'm not as excited about it as I should be.

 

I know it's early days yet...but the screenshots don't look quite as good as the original. Perhaps it's just me. The Borg Boss looks very menacing, though.

 

The textures seem too bright, or washed out, or something...and I hope it all comes out right when they've got to tweaking and polishing. As for the storyline...not much known yet...but encountering Klingons, Romulans and Borg doesn't set me afire with anticipation, so I hope they've thrown a lot of new stuff into the mix.

 

All I know is they're going to have a pretty big job following in Raven's tracks. Short as it was...Elite Force was a very, very good game (apart from the end boss - sorry Raven, I just didn't like it).

[Wicket the Ewok]

Raven are handling Quake 4?

 

That saddens me as I've been a big fan of the Quake games (or at least the mods that were released for it). Raven have proved in the past that they can make good games but anything outstanding is beyong them (and yes, including Jedi Outcast).

 

I'd rather they made it a triology and stopped rather than letting Raven ruin it's reputation.

[psycoglass]

I think Id ruined Quake's reputation with quake 3 it was just too simple and boring I enjoyed Unreal Tournament much more. I think Raven will create a great game. Maybe Id should just stick to making engines, cause John carmack is a graphics god. but unless they come up with a really good Idea for great game I think they should leave it to somebody else.

[Cyclone]

ROTFL, hehe, Raven ruin Quakes repuation? hahaha.

 

Sorry, but it is well established, that after Id releases a single player game, that the Raven release which follows it is always much better.

 

Doom -> Heretic

Doom II -> Hexen

Quake -> Hexen II

Quake II -> Heretic II, SOF

Quake III -> Elite Force, JKII, SOF2

Doom III -> Quake IV, Rabies II: Snoopy's blood bath

 

There are always more features, better puzzles, better level design and texture art. Since id is the flag ship, they always get the stronger press, but when it comes to playing the games, Raven's have always been stronger.

 

Its not that Id doesn't make good levels, its just that Raven usually has more time to add extras to the engine before their games ship.

 

To see that Id has given the Quake license to Raven to develope, means that they have a very high level of confidence in Raven. I think that we will see a really good game in Quake IV.

 

Cyclone.

 

PS. j/k about the Snoopy part.

[Wicket the Ewok]

Doom -> Heretic

Doom II -> Hexen

Quake -> Hexen II

Quake II -> Heretic II, SOF

Quake III -> Elite Force, JKII, SOF2

Doom III -> Quake IV, Rabies II: Snoopy's blood bath

 

Heretic and Hexen were fundamentally flawed. They, for the most part, used melee weapons which didn't work under the FPS environment. It required no skill (run up to enemy, press attack, move back a bit, repeat) and was extremely repetitive. Comparing either of these games to Doom is laughable.

 

Soldier of Fortune was equally average. The first level was encouraging but after that it got incredibly predictable and boring. I could always guess what was going to be around the next corner and it threw up very few original ideas. Sure the locational damage was fun but it's novelty soon wore off.

 

JKII is a good game but again nothing special, especially if you remove the star wars theme from it.

 

And then when you've completed a game, what comes next? Multiplayer. Id software really excel when it comes to multiplayer and I think this is what most hardcore gamers buy games for. I don't think any game has ever come close to QuakeWorld for sheer enjoyment in multiplayer. Deathmatch was incredibly intense and many of the mods created for it were a joy to play (especially Team Fortress). The netcode was good and the levels were absolutely superb.

 

Id's success isn't all down to hype and a good engine.

[acdcfanbill]

JKII is a good game but again nothing special, especially if you remove the star wars theme from it.

 

 

that is like taking a marathon runners legs away from him... remove the star wars theme, that was what the whole game was based around... of course it wouldnt be anything without it:D

[StormHammer]

I have to agree with Cyclone.

 

I've always found that Raven has managed to push Id's game engine and features further with every incarnation. It's a little unfair comparing the games directly, because they are, after all, quite different in context. However, Raven has always been strong in developing a credible story, creative enemies, new game features, and getting you really immersed in the game.

 

Conversely, Id has always been very weak in terms of story, and settled for an almost straightforward frag-fest. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that...but it doesn't encourage a great deal of replayability. I've always loved a lot of Id's enemy designs...they usually look great, and do some things you don't expect.

 

Raven is no slouch when it comes to creative enemy design either, as they proved in the Heretic and Hexen series...and now in Jedi Outcast.

 

I've largely followed the games developed by both companies, and on the whole, I prefer Raven's games. That's not dismissing Id's games in any way...most of them were very good too.

 

I wasn't totally satisfied with Quake II, however. The game had a few issues from where I was sitting. I can't comment on MP, because I never played it, but the SP game just didn't gel properly. It's paper-thin storyline (based on both the book and film of Startship Troopers, if you ask me), seemed tacked on. The hangover of power-ups from Quake 1 felt completely out of place - and as it happened, spoiled the ending for me. The movement felt wrong. The enemies looked mostly great, but many were pathetically easy to kill on the hard setting, including the end boss. And every level was another study in the colour brown (or orange, or red).

 

So was I happy to hear Raven would be developing Quake IV? Absolutely...because I'm expecting them to work their magic, and come up with a decent story with some character development, even more creative enemies, some tough bosses, and tweaks to the engine to add even more features and make the game truly come alive. The old run-and-gun frag-fest style gameplay should be allowed to rot, IMO. These days I look for a great deal more depth in a game, and Raven usually delivers.

[Wicket the Ewok]

I agree, Id software don't make very strong single player games but mulitplayer is where PC games are at their strongest. What other platform allows you to play against 8+ other people? The Dreamcast failed at that and the X-box's multiplayer potential has just to be fulfilled.

 

Single player is great, until you complete the game, but what keeps people coming back time and time again is multiplayer and in this aspect Id's games, from Doom all the way up to Quake 3, have been revolutionary.

 

I'm not saying Raven make bad games, they just don't do anything special. They're happy to stick to the run-of-the-mill formula and tweak it slightly. The best FPS games (Doom, Quake 1, Halflife, Deus Ex) have taken the genre to a whole new level in terms of design and/or story. Raven games do not.

[Creston]

In my opinion, Raven make kickass SP game experiences, I loved Jedi Outcast, I loved Soldier of Fortune (one month till SoF2, wheeee ), Elite Force was good but way too short.

 

However, the news that Elite Force 2 was going to be done by Ritual.. blergh.

 

Ritual were the guys that released Sin in such a state that it took 9 minutes to load a level. Their reply "Oh, we forgot to turn *some kind of flush command* off in the engine. Heh. We'll fix it in a patch".

And then you had to download a 28 Meg patch to get all their crap fixed that they SHOULD have seen in ANY kind of beta test whatsoever.

 

What was that last thing they made? Oh yeah, Heavy Metal FAKK2. Great. Look at a polygon rendition of a soft porn star for a whole five hours.

 

They're also the guys that got kicked out of doing the Single Player version of Counterstrike (not that that's going to be anything special, but still.)

 

Yep, I'm sure that with Ritual, Elite Force is in good hands. [/sarcasm]

 

As far as engines... I think Ritual / Activision already have a license for the Q3 TA engine. Buying a new license to use a different engine wouldn't make much sense for them, especially since none of the really next gen engines are all that finished yet. No word on the Doom3 engine, and the Unreal Warfare engine is still being heavily altered. Not something you'd want to get into as a developer, I think.

Lithtech and the Serious Engine are no contenders.

 

Creston

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Wicket the Ewok

Single player is great, until you complete the game, but what keeps people coming back time and time again is multiplayer and in this aspect Id's games, from Doom all the way up to Quake 3, have been revolutionary.

 

Well, MP is very important for a lot of people, I agree, and it can help to build up some really great communities that might not form otherwise. However, not everyone can get the benefit of a great MP experience due to their connection. I'm one of them, unfortunately. So in this regard, a strong SP game is very important...as is the implementation of good Bot support, to at least enable those who cannot play properly online to experience the MP aspects of a game - and effectually get their full money's worth.

 

I preferred Unreal Tournament over Quake 3. (Just my preference...I don't want to enter into a long-drawn UT v Q3 debate)

 

The best FPS games (Doom, Quake 1, Halflife, Deus Ex) have taken the genre to a whole new level in terms of design and/or story. Raven games do not.

 

I disagree that Raven's games haven't achieved some new heights. I think Heretic was a ground-breaking title allowing you to play a proper fast-paced fantasy-fest in 1st person, while introducing things like inventories and choosing different characters to play to the FPS genre. Obviously those who build the engines, and integrate features at the heart of a game, are breaking new ground, and full credit goes to Id for inventing the FPS in the first place, and introducing us to the world of proper 3D gaming.

 

However, those who build new features on top of existing engines are no less innovative. The GHOUL tech that Raven devised was ground-breaking, allowing proper damage, hit-zones, etc. They've also made great strides in AI, both in EF and now JO. In terms of graphics and design, they've always been excellent, IMO. And they have always been strong on story.

 

I can't really comment on the MP aspects, but both DOOM and QUAKE SP were very weak in terms of story. But you're right, in terms of design, they were both ground-breaking - and genre-defining - games, largely due to the engine capabilities. DOOM always seemed like an Aliens wannabe to me - a great atmospheric frag-fest nonetheless, and the enemy designs were fantastic. QUAKE was a more dark gothic Cthuluic experience, and the first true 3D game (I preferred it's movement over Quake II's, BTW). However, they made a complete mess of level continuity, jumping from hi-tech to gothic and back again didn't make much sense, especially considering they had four different chapters or worlds to work with. I've always wanted to go in there and rearrange them. Loved the enemy designs again, though.

 

Half-Life SP was very good...up to a point (Xen, apart from the Head-Crab boss, was crap, IMO.) It told a good (if cliched - typical 50's B-movie stuff) story in a way that was fresh (next to no cut scenes), but still had issues (non-sensical puzzles because you couldn't open a particular door from one side... )

 

I've only had a chance to play a few levels of Deus Ex, so I won't comment on that one.

 

And I think you missed off Jedi Knight from your list, which was very strong on both design and story, and was another ground-breaking title, IMO.

 

The point is...we all have our own preferences. Every game released so far has something wrong with it from one point of view or another, and as gamer's we are always pushing for more features - even specific features - so when they don't appear we get annoyed about it. Developers can't please everyone, nor should they try...and as a long-term gamer I try to look at every game objectively, at both the good and bad points, and never expect too much from a game title, so I often enjoy it more.

 

Which brings me back to EF II. At the moment, I don't think it looks quite as good as the original, but it's early days yet, and they're promising a longer game with improvements. I actually like Heavy Metal FAKK2 - it's not a run-of-the-mill FPS, but has some almost arcade-type elements - so EF II will probably turn out okay in the long run. I don't expect anything ground-breaking, because to be fair they have to work within the limitations of the licence, and the Q3 engine, which is starting to show it's age when compared to some others. It will probably be a different game experience to EF, but that's true of most games. Whether or not it will be better than EF is debatable, and I guess we'll have to play the waiting game again.

 

As for Quake IV...I could go into a long list of wishes for that game, but this isn't the thread to do it in.

[Ryo Ohki]

Ritual got the EF 2 for 2 reasons really

 

Raven are busy doing other projects

Some of the more rabid fans kept demanding a sequel, so Activision/Paramount went with Ritual.

 

One of the funniest comments I saw on the Ritual fan UBB, was from someone from ritual saying about how we wouldn't reconize the the Q3TA as they were modding it like they had in the past. Wrong sort of statement as I remember Sin oh too well

[Joruus]

There is no such thing as the Doom 3 engine.

 

John Carmack himself has stated "We've decided to do Doom 3 in the Quake 3 Arena engine, albeit heavily modified. I had originally decided to make a new engine for the new game, but then I decided that there was no need to reinvent the wheel."

 

Thats a direct quote from his .plan file as of about a month ago.

 

The Unreal 2 Engine won't be ready for developer franchise until 2003 at the very earliest.

 

What it comes down to guys is that Id's engines are currently the best availible on the market. I won't deny Epic Games had a very good engine for Unreal Tournament and that the power of the engine was more than adequate, but when it comes to engine franchises, Id has them in the bag.

 

Quake Engine games: Hexen, Heretic, Half-Life, Shogo

 

Quake 2 Engine games: Hitman: Codename 47, AvP, SoF

 

Q3A Engine games: FAKK2, RTCW, MOH:AA, JK:O, Elite Force; Alice

 

Whereas;

 

Unreal Engine Games: None

 

Unreal Tournament Engine Games: Deus Ex (Excellent game for single player), Wheel of Time (Who plays this?)

 

Id engines are the best availible to independant developers in all reality. Which is why they are consistently in use by major game developers.

 

Its that or write your own engine, which in essence, is attempting to "re-invent" the wheel, per se.

 

15 years of game development can't be wrong.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Joruus

There is no such thing as the Doom 3 engine.

 

John Carmack himself has stated "We've decided to do Doom 3 in the Quake 3 Arena engine, albeit heavily modified. I had originally decided to make a new engine for the new game, but then I decided that there was no need to reinvent the wheel."

 

That's unfortunate...I thought they were just swapping out Q3 code and replacing it with new code as they went along, which would still amount to a new engine. I can't see them just tweaking the existing one, but who knows?

 

The Unreal 2 Engine won't be ready for developer franchise until 2003 at the very earliest.

 

Actually...there is no Unreal 2 engine, as such. They just revamp it as they go along...and distribute the newest build to those who have licensed it. They recently added KARMA physics to it, but they were a little too late getting this build to DE...who are making Unreal Tournament 2 due in June this year. There are several other projects in development now using the latest builds...listed below.

 

What it comes down to guys is that Id's engines are currently the best availible on the market. I won't deny Epic Games had a very good engine for Unreal Tournament and that the power of the engine was more than adequate, but when it comes to engine franchises, Id has them in the bag.

 

Quake Engine games: Hexen, Heretic, Half-Life, Shogo

 

Quake 2 Engine games: Hitman: Codename 47, AvP, SoF

 

Q3A Engine games: FAKK2, RTCW, MOH:AA, JK:O, Elite Force; Alice

 

Whereas;

 

Unreal Engine Games: None

 

Unreal Tournament Engine Games: Deus Ex (Excellent game for single player), Wheel of Time (Who plays this?)

 

Er, actually, you're a little bit mistaken there...

 

DOOM engine games: Hexen, Heretic

 

Quake Engine games: Half-Life, (Shogo? Are you sure?) Hexen II

 

Quake 2 Engine games: Heretic II, Hitman: Codename 47 ?, SoF, Anachronox, Daikatana

 

AvP used the LithTech engine...and was developed by Rebellion Studios. AvP2 also used the LithTech engine, and was developed by Monolith.

 

Q3A Engine games: FAKK2, RTCW, MOH:AA, JK:O, Elite Force; Alice

 

Q3 games in development: EF 2, SOF 2...possibly RTCW 2, unless they switch to the newest Id incarnation...

 

Unreal Engine Games: Klingon Honour Guard - it was crap, but it did use this engine.

 

Unreal Tournament Engine Games: Deus Ex (Excellent game for single player), Wheel of Time (I play it), RUNE, Clive Barker's Undying

 

Current Unreal engine games in development: The Y-Project, Falcone: Into The Maelstrom, Unreal Tournament 2, Mobile Forces, XIII (I think), Deus Ex 2, Thief III, Duke Nukem Forever...I think there are some others, but I can't remember their names...

 

So, there are quite a few Unreal engine titles as well. And as I said, they are constantly adding and tweaking the core build all of the time...while the game developers themselves can bolt on their own tech for particle effects, etc., or other features...much as Raven did with Q3:TA...

[Plan9]

Hmm, I could've sworn SHOGO used the LithTech engine. It played very similar to Blood 2, which used the LithTech engine.

 

Aww, and you guys totally left out the BUILD engine as well. Duke Nukem 3d, blood, etc...classics, really.

[psycoglass]

First of all there is a Doom 3 engine. John Carmack wouldn't be that stupid plus he loves making these engines.I went back and read every .plan file of his and it says nothing like that. Sorry joruus I don't mean to be an a$$ hole but your completely wrong.

Where do you get your news from. The wannabe geek you sit next to in computer class? There is a doom 3 engine and there is a Unreal 2 Engine.

[Joruus]

Okay psychoglass, obviously since you can't find the quote I'm talking about, I'm wrong.

 

Tell you what, you go on thinking your right until the game is released.

 

And then we shall see who was correct.

 

AvP did use the Lithtech engine....my mistake there.

 

Hexen and Heretic were in the Doom engine, Hexen 2 used the Quake Engine....also my timeline mistake.

 

Shogo did use the Quake engine, much to the developers chagrin as the Quake 2 license became availible just after he began development.

 

And yeah Clive Barkers Undying and Rune were in the Epic engine, but for pure replayability, only UT really had any large multiplayer following. And thats what keeps a game going. Its what keeps people buying your game 5 years into the future. I bet you can't even find a copy of WoT or Undying at EB right now.

 

Half Life, the game has been selling steadily since 1998, and will continue to do so while Valve supports its mod communities as strongly as it does. I've often felt that other game companies should do the same, support of your best 3rd party developers can extend the marketing lifespan of your title for years after the game has fallen behind the technology benchmarks.

 

But unfortunatly, Valve has really been the only developer to take this approach. Id communicates with its development community, but doesn't support it. Epic is pretty damn approachable (Cliff Blezinzki is probably the most garroulous and public of their team) and does what they can to encourage 3rd party development, but doesn't support it. Nerve Software, developers of RTCW seem to be going in the right direction, with the early implementation of Punk Buster and a quick development of a GtkRadiant build, I don't believe that an SRC has been released as of this date, but I wouldn't be surprised if one isn't soon to be made so. RTCW offers the next great realistic combat FPS engine to independantly develop mods for, and if they don't seize the opportunity to supplant Half Life as the next great mods game, I'll be very surprised. And Raven...which is one of the most social development teams I've ever seen, hasn't ever really had to support a large development community, since the MP communities for SoF and EF were really just flash in the pan compared to the endurance of the MP communities for Half Life and the Quake dynasty.

 

I think they've got a different animal on their hands here though. Star Wars is a generation spanning phenomena, Jedi Knight already had a small, but enduring community, and the Q3A engine pulls in the FPS players from other games. Raven should look at JO as an opportunity to put them on the map as an enduring game developer, a situation where they can succeed or fail in their approach to the development and expansion of the game, from their own developers...and from the development community.

 

It will be interesting to see.

[Fyunch Click]

Joruus-

 

Shogo MAD was a Lithtech engine powered game not a Quake game. (done by Monolith, sorry. I still play this.)

 

Deus Ex was also Unreal 1 not UT generation. They didn't use later builds because there were issues with the rendering, hence why it was a primarily Directx based game as opposed to OpenGL.

 

And Doom3 is a new engine. Check out the movies and the actual specs of what is going to be required of the vid cards. He has mentioned in his .plan files that a Geforce 3 500 might run it at 30 frames per second. Maybe. I seriously doubt that even with some serious modifications that the Q3TA engine could bog down the cards like that. (I have read his .plan files over the past year and I've never seen the post you've mentioned. I even checked on /. Perhaps you were mistaken?) Check webdog if you are unsure.

 

As to Ritual doing the Elite Force expansion, well, Sin would have been an OK game if it had been released 6 months later.

I wish them well.

[Joruus]

I've seen the demo footage and I'm not convinced thats a new engine.

 

I'm gonna have to dig up that quote. I'll link it here once I do.

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Joruus

And yeah Clive Barkers Undying and Rune were in the Epic engine, but for pure replayability, only UT really had any large multiplayer following. And thats what keeps a game going. Its what keeps people buying your game 5 years into the future. I bet you can't even find a copy of WoT or Undying at EB right now.

 

The same can be said of a lot of games. I agree to an extent...but on the other hand there are still people buying the original Jedi Knight for the first time after 5 years - to play through SP. If a game is good enough, it will still be played a long time after it's initial release. I've done the same thing myself...and picked up a couple of good titles I missed on initial release a couple of years ago. I'm getting them to play through SP. You're right in that a lot of titles are no longer available, and that's unfortunate. I missed out on AvP the first time...and had to wait for a rerelease (recently) to pick it up.

 

Half Life, the game has been selling steadily since 1998, and will continue to do so while Valve supports its mod communities as strongly as it does. I've often felt that other game companies should do the same, support of your best 3rd party developers can extend the marketing lifespan of your title for years after the game has fallen behind the technology benchmarks.

 

Yep, it was a smart move by Valve to release a game, then constantly patch it, and sit back while the Mod community took over. Valve sells millions of copies of Half-Life purely because lots of people want to play the mods. Valve have released 1 game in 4 years - that's innovation for you. Where's Half-Life 2? Where's the Next Best Thing? Raven have released 6 great games in the last 4 years alone (see below).

 

Nerve Software, developers of RTCW seem to be going in the right direction, with the early implementation of Punk Buster and a quick development of a GtkRadiant build, I don't believe that an SRC has been released as of this date, but I wouldn't be surprised if one isn't soon to be made so.

 

Er...Nerve only did the MP side...Grey Matter did SP...and they all collaborated with Id. It was, largely, a group effort. I hope they take the same approach with the rumoured sequel, RTCW 2.

 

And Raven...which is one of the most social development teams I've ever seen, hasn't ever really had to support a large development community, since the MP communities for SoF and EF were really just flash in the pan compared to the endurance of the MP communities for Half Life and the Quake dynasty.

 

Raven can speak for themselves, but from my POV, they've been smart by using someone else's engine, becoming expert in it's use to get the best from it, and constantly producing new and fresh games, so that gamers can have a blast playing something different. Id's success is not only measured by it's own titles...but by the license of it's engine. Raven can't license out the base engine, because it belongs to Id - so no money there. Secondly, yes, they could have gone the way of Valve, and produced a good game, and offered massive mod support...and we would be poorer gamers for it, in the lack of choice of titles being developed. As I said, Raven have brought 6 great games to us for our enjoyment - 6 different gaming experiences. I'm not the kind of gamer who simply wants to play CS for years on end...I want something new and fresh hitting my screen on a regular basis.

 

Raven should look at JO as an opportunity to put them on the map as an enduring game developer, a situation where they can succeed or fail in their approach to the development and expansion of the game, from their own developers...and from the development community.

 

Am I missing something here? Raven are an enduring game developer, in case you hadn't noticed. Just looking at their history...

 

Raven Software was founded in 1990 by brothers Brian and Steve Raffel.

 

...and lineup of game titles...

 

Black Crypt - 1992 (I think that was on Amiga...)

ShadowCaster - 1993 (used the Wolfenstein 3D engine)

CyClones - 1994 (first game to have mouselook and jump, I believe)

Heretic - 1994

Hexen - 1995

Hexen: Deathkings of the Dark Citadel - 1996

Necrodome - 1996

Take No Prisoners - 1997

MageSlayer - 1997

Hexen II - 1997

Hexen II: Portal of Praevus - 1998

Heretic II - 1998

Soldier of Fortune - 2000

Soldier of Fortune Gold - 2000

Star Trek: Voyager: Elite Force - 2000

Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast - 2002

Soldier Of Fortune II: Double Helix - 2002

 

...to see that they are an enduring developer. Hell, they've made more games than Id and Valve combined in the past 12 years. I've seen a lot of other developers come and go in that time.

 

They've got Quake IV in the pipeline, and no doubt after SOF2's release, they will be working on another two titles (they always work on 3 titles simultaneously, these days). So that's another 3 great titles to look forward to over the next 2-3 years.

 

I'm hoping they'll round off the Heretic series with a 3rd installment...and make a proper Bond game for the PC. Go on, Kenn, you know you want to...

 

Keep up the fantastic work, Raven, and just keep working your magic.

[Joruus]

I'm by no means denigrating Ravens ability to turn out excellent games. Which is the impression you seem to be getting.

 

But single player experiences only go so far. I played through Id/Graymatters SP RTCW and enjoyed it, but the endurance is in the multiplayer aspect of a game.

 

I need point no farther than Gamespy to prove this, as there are still base Quake deathmatch servers on the internet nearly 7 years after the games release.

 

Half Life servers are the same way. Quake 2, Quake 3, games with a strong multiplayer community are the ones that last the longest.

 

The idea of having the next great new game all the time is excellent, I've no argument with that, I like new experiences just as much as the next person. But once I'm done playing the SP game, if theres not a strong multiplayer community, the game sits in my CD case and gathers dust until such time as I reinstall it to play the SP again (done this with Deus Ex multiple times), or it gets traded in at EB so I can get another game. Much the way my original Jedi Knight CD did.

 

Valve didn't just patch and sit back and watch the mod communities carry their game, far from it. They bought the entire CS development team. They also partially subsidized Fire-Arms, they saw the strength of a multiplayer community and encouraged it by rewarding the best work.

 

Now I don't play Counter Strike, or Fire Arms any more, basically because the engine is so far behind the times. But hundreds of thousands of online game players still do, and will for years to come, (since not everyone upgrades to play the newest games), that in and of itself extends the lifespan of a game title. CDs get lost, scratched up, broken, lent out and never returned...whatever. So even people that have originally bought the game have to continue to do so if they want to continue playing in their community.

 

The next big game is always good. SP games are excellent. But being able to play and compete in a strong multiplayer community is a great experience. To run a clan through the major leagues, to build a name for your "internet alias" as a strong player. To make friends with the people you play with. These are the things that keep me buying games, not the single player aspect of them that in some cases, gives barely an acceptable plot line for why its just "you" against every gun toting person in the "world".

 

Raven has, on the whole, provided some very good games, and are a strong developer. But enduring? If you look at it for how long the company has been around, sure...they've endured alot of the game industry crunch and are still putting out excellent titles. But as far as single game endurance? Nothing they've made up to this time other than JO has demonstrated the potentiality for long time community endurance.

 

While I applaud Raven for the things they've done, they seem to be the software development equivalent of the writers that novelize great movies. While they are making a creative contribution, they didn't create the movie. They license Id's engine, they license LEC's creative property, they assume most of LEC's Jedi Knight fan base. And bam, the softwarization of the "movie" occurs.

 

But will they approach it like they approached Elite Force, is my biggest concern. A patch to replace the Jeri Ryan voice content and fix a few minor SP bugs, then licensing out the creative rights to develop the expansion to another company...which added literally nothing to the MP game. Now Voyager probably will never have the cult fanbase that Star Wars has, so the concern with the multiplayer aspect of the game wasn't a priority. But will they approach JO in the same fashion? Are they simply going to release the tools, fix a few major bugs and then let the game go on its own to die or survive on the steam of the community....or are they going to continue to support the game? With a company with as many major titles under development as they seem to have, I often wonder if there will be any time for multiplayer community support from Raven Software.

 

A game that has multiplayer support as a second thought isn't going to last very long. And even if they were to release an expansion to the SP portion of JO, its not like they'll be releasing regular installments like a TV miniseries. The replayability of a game, the longevity marketing of a game is in the multiplayer aspect.

 

Id/Graymatter, but mostly Nerve got it right with RTCW. They packaged an excellent SP experience with the best MP game availible in the last year. And Nerve is continuing to better the game. Which will make RTCW a strong title for several years.

 

Will JO be just another "success" entry on the Raven resume'? Like all the other games you listed? Or will it take the final step into community support that will extend the playability of the game for years to come?

 

I think its something with which we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Ryo Ohki]

Joruus when you actually know what you're talking about get back to us.

 

example

 

Raven don't have a license for either SW or ST.

 

SW Activision/Raven were hired to make the game by Lucasarts.

 

ST Activision Raven's Parent have the License so it's up to them who will develop (Paramount will get a say in this though) and as I said before Raven was/is busy and constant requests for a sequel lead to Activision/Paramount going with Ritual (also linked/owned with/by them)

 

I could go on to poke holes in a number of you're statements but why bother as you won't even notice

 

[edit] nice response [/edit]

[Joruus]

Oh please do, go on. I so enjoy watching a troll at work.

 

The information as I've presented it is the information as I've comprehended it.

 

I am in no great need to be the absolute authority on the exact legal preceedings that lead up to the development of JK:O. because it still doesn't change the facts.

 

Fact 1) The Jedi Knight franchise is solely the property of Lucas Arts Entertainment,

 

Fact 2) Whether contracted to do so, or having bought creative license to do so on their own, Raven Software did not originally develop the games content, storyline or premise. This was the same with Elite Force. Novelizations of creative property not owned, produced or created by Raven Software.

 

Fact 3) Raven Software does have two major software titles in the pipe right now and I can't see how they would divert resources and personnel from SoF 2 and Quake 4.

 

I could "go on" quoting facts at you, but it seems relatively pointless since all you seem to add to the thread is negative trolling that amounts to, in a few more words, "STFU U R ST00PID I DO NOT AGREE WITH J00".

 

Yawn.

[Wicket the Ewok]

Well said Joruus. I agree with everything you said it your original post.

 

Who here hasn't completed SP JO yet? How many times can you play through it? Twice? For the average gamer that's a three week lifespan max. MP, with a good community, can last for YEARS.

 

And don't tell me you haven't got a good enough connection to play games on-line, I was playing Duke Nukem 3D/Quake on-line when broadband was still a twinkle in an engineer's eye.