Blue vs Yellow vs Red

[stellerwinds]

One fact was pointed out to be on another thread about the saber stances, light medium and heavy. That they are paid for in force games. Now I play a lot of NF dueling so i have a different view of these stances. But i still think this view fits the stances even when you consider their costs.

 

The way the stances are currently treated are this:

Blue - for newbs, wild and crazy, does no damage but is "showy"

Yellow - "true" saber style, does good damage but has to be "aimed" better than blue, leaves one more open than blue does

Red - considered the "ultimate" style, does the max amount of damage but most difficult to hit with

 

Everyone considers the styles as some kind of progression system. The newbies use blue until they can learn yellow until they can finally handle red.

 

It would be better if each style was a true style and not progressive like karate belts.

 

The two problems are blue and red style. Blue isnt given enough credit and red is given too much. Try this for example. When a red is winding up for a overhead hit, try and quickly slice him with a blue strike. What happens? He will still punish you with his red hit and will likely finish you off with one hit, while you nick him for small damage.

You cant disrupt his attack so the red doesnt mind trading shots with you. If you are hitting him while he is open from attacking, then it only means he will hit you too. And that works in his favor.

 

I'm not sure the exact solution here but it is a a problem with the way the styles are treated. Instead of blue being the "cheap" style it should be thought of as the fast style.

 

After all the lightsaber hardly does more damage from the power you put into it, it isnt a club. The speed of the strike is the real reason for the damage it does. A slow saber hits for a longer period and does more damage.

So instead of thinking of them as light, medium and heavy they should just be fast, medium and slow styles. Make them all cost the same and allow us to choose which type(s) we want to use.

 

The progression system might be nice for SP but in MP it should be about preference and excelling at a style. Not about using the "newb" style or the "master" style.

[Solo4114]

The problems inherent in the blue-yellow-red deal and the emphasis on red style is largely due to the collision detection and blocking in MP sabre combat.

 

Which is to say that it's virtually nonexistent. Wanna know why everyone just uses heavy stance and flails around hoping for a hit? Because they can. Currently, due to the inability to effectively block in MP, people simply swing the sabre around and hope it connects. Much like the secondary fire in the old JK game.

 

It covers the most area, and as long as you time it correctly, you can take out someone in one or two hits. While blue/fast stance should conceivably protect you (since it's supposed to be the best defensive stance), it simply doesn't work out like that. What ends up being more the case is that, while you don't protect yourself, you allow yourself to speed in, get a few quick hits, and speed out. Hopefully without getting whacked in the process. Unfortunately, this means that MP sabre duels are a fairly lackluster affair. If you want to hear more of my rantings, check out my thread in the feedback forum.

[stellerwinds]

Not argueing against you at all. That is the problem and it needs to be resolved so that we have true uses and weakness in each stance.

[Dark_One]

Stupid ass (sorry) you can easy evade all the red attacks if you use tacs. But people like you don't even try they die a couple of times agains red and they start complainting. Instead of finding a way to beat these guys.

If a red stance person attacks all you have to do is take a step backwards or left/right.

You can even throw your saber so stop wining

[gaeb]

If all things were equal and saber hits were more 'realistic', why pick the slow style? People will dance around you and with one or two nicks you'd be dead.

 

Look at it this way:

 

(1 - Yellow) Medium Stance : The balanced stance.

 

(2 - Blue) Light Stance : The fast stance.

 

(3 - Red) Strong Stance : The finishing stance.

 

Light can throw out more attacks than medium, and gives a large bonus to blocking projectiles. Already implimented.

 

Strong Stance requires carefully placed attacks. It's slow, it's cumbersome, blocks less than Medium stance, and it kills in one hit when used properly.

 

Fantasy note: I didn't see Darth Vader (That guy who "killed off all the Jedi") dancing around swinging like mad. He defended until he found an opening, then used a broad sweep ... with so much physical and mental power behind it that the opponent is devestated whether he got his saber up to block or not. That's what I see as the strong stance. That power is the only reason I can think of to use such a slow, cumbersome, see-it-coming-from-a-mile-away form of attack that sacrifices defense for all-or-nothing explosive attacks.

 

 

There _may_ (I don't say "are") be bugs in heavy stance. And Stellar, "Yellow" is the newbie stance, not Blue. That's the way the designers intended it. You can indeed get more hits off (for less damage) in Blue, but Saber stances were not balanced with NF Duels in mind. They were balanced with Guns and the Force both in mind. You recover faster in Light Stance. I get CREAMED at times because my opponent throws a Force Attack or Projectile while I'm recovering from Heavy Stance. Likewise, if a bot comes at me with a repeater with rapid fire and I'm in Heavy Stance I cringe, knowing I'll take a few hits. If I'm in Light Stance, though, I laugh as it all gets deflected.

 

If you're playing NF Duels only, you're not playing the game the designers balanced the stances around. Comparing their strengths and weaknesses in a context they weren't designed for is like comparing the strengths and weaknesses of using outboard motors (55 HP and 5 HP) as ventilation fans.

 

- Gaeb

[Fyunch Click]

I actually fight with swords in RL, (SCA combat heavy and light), in reality a two handed sword is slower and tougher to swing but is devestating when it hits. One thing you have to consider is the concept of torque, a longer object requires more force to turn and hit with while a shorter one is faster but carries less of an impact.

 

Please remember that the stances are reflecting range as well, which taken in combination with torque gives you the following:

 

The heavy stance has the greatest reach but is slow. Leaves you with little mobility due to the long swing time.

 

Medium stance is useful for general action due to it's mid-range reach and power. Useful for some mobility due to a shorter recovery time.

 

Light stance is useful for close in attacks where you are moving very quickly around your opponent. Allows for extreme manueverabilty but reduces your damage dealing with a single blow to preserve balance.

 

There was a thread about this in the first few days of release where one of the Devs in charge of the saber combat explained some of these things and the design philospohy behind the saber system.

[Jiro Kage]

I used to swordfight too (Iiado), and I understand completely what you say.

 

 

Just remember, it is different with a lightsaber, as the cutting power is not increased by weight or force put into the swing. The thought that the slower swing allows more contact time with the blade works well in relation to the saber.

[Solo4114]

DarkOne,

 

What is your major malfunction, dude? This guy bothers to post his opinion, and all you can think to do is immediately jump in and start belittling him, telling him he's whining and other such nonsense. Good god, I have HAD IT with people like this. Allow me to explain two things for you, DarkOne:

 

1.) CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM IS DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT FROM WHINING.

 

This is NOT a difficult concept to grasp. Every time someone decides to post thier points of view on HOW THE GAME COULD BE IMPROVED it is NOT whining. Whining implies first that the person's complaints are baseless, and second that they are unjustified in making them. Finally, whining also implies that a person has not effectively communicated their point. Discussing problems in the dynamic of the game which prevents a person from having fun is NOT whining. Many people have remarked on the problems in sabre combat, and this is just another thread to that effect. Every time someone makes a complaint, it's not whining just because YOU don't happen to agree with it.

 

2.) DON'T BE AN A**HOLE IN YOUR POSTS.

 

Immediately calling someone stupid and a whiner only makes you look immature and incapable of articulating yourself. Moreover, it only serves to weaken your own argument, because it looks like you can't effectively defend or advocate your own position, without insulting the other person. These forums are intended to further intelligent debate, or just simple discussion. Don't flame people. No one wants a flame war. This is also not a difficult concept. If you want to disagree with someone, fine. Go for it. But don't instigate a flame war. I've been on too many forums where people start slinging mud back and forth at each other, resulting in what had previously been a civil and reasonable thread being closed down by a moderator, because they didn't want to have it turn into YET ANOTHER flame war. So basically, if all you're going to do is insult the other person, call them lame, stupid, a whiner, etc., keep it to yourself, ok? That does NOTHING to further the debate and only serves to hinder it.

 

Ok, I'm done ranting now. >phew<

[Vesentac]

solo4114 pretty much nails part of the problem.

 

 

Here's another tip. Rolls arent unidirectional.

[RpTheHotrod]

It isn't a progressive newb to elite thing at all. It matters what is going on...who you're fighting.

 

 

I always use yellow, and switch to red for a finishing move if I feel like there's room for it.

 

I can easily kill a red stancer using blue or yellow.

 

You don't go in straight on. I let them swing, then go in awhile they recover...sometimes I just go up when they recover, kick em (knocking them down) and killing them instantly while they are on the ground.

 

Dueling against heavy stancers are the easier to kill for me.

 

 

[Zek]

Considering the stances to be a linear progression is utterly ridiculous. I use medium only exclusively except occasionally switching to heavy when I want a fast finisher or to kill people who swing randomly(can usually do it with medium too, but heavy is more satisfying). I very rarely lose to someone who uses heavy exclusively. It's not unbalanced at all, and it's so easily counterable that people should be ashamed for losing to it as often as they claim on the forums.

[stellerwinds]

Originally posted by Dark_One

Stupid ass (sorry) you can easy evade all the red attacks if you use tacs. But people like you don't even try they die a couple of times agains red and they start complainting. Instead of finding a way to beat these guys.

If a red stance person attacks all you have to do is take a step backwards or left/right.

You can even throw your saber so stop wining

 

I'm sick of you morons.

 

First off i play on No Force duels. We dont saber throw or push or all the bs "counters" you people suggest for red.

 

Secondly "running away" is a idiotic defense for an attack. Because that is what you fools mean by "evade". You mean put your tail between your legs and scamper off. In your case that probabaly means bouncing around like a 12 year old on a sugar rush.

 

I've been fighting NF duels for the past week. I've fought and won my fair share of battles vs all 3 stances. That is how come i understand there are some real problems with red stance. Problems that have nothing to do with how powerful it is Supposed to be. But real problems with hit detection.

[Zek]

steller, I've played my fair share of NF duels, and can still beat people of all 3 stances with the medium stance. The force is the easiest method of countering heavy stance, but it certainly isn't the only one.

[stellerwinds]

Originally posted by gaeb

If you're playing NF Duels only, you're not playing the game the designers balanced the stances around. Comparing their strengths and weaknesses in a context they weren't designed for is like comparing the strengths and weaknesses of using outboard motors (55 HP and 5 HP) as ventilation fans.

 

- Gaeb

 

Usually you put a lot of good thought into your posts gaeb but you gota be kidding me here.

 

Sabers are unbalanced because im playing in NF duels?

 

This should be where saber balance Totally shines. NF saber duels Only involved sabers. The stance should be of prime importance. THIS is the exact place that the saber stance should matter. If its a question of wether the stance matters in duels or in ctf, then it should matter in duels. That is all dueling is about.

 

The game is new so I keep attributing the disbeleif many of you have for the real and non-imagined hit detection problems to its newness. I've already run into many others that have begun to see these exact same problems. And we have reached the same conclusions and witnessed the same things independantly, so i know im not imagining them.

[gaeb]

Just tried a game with saber offense level 1. Blue is indeed the lowest level. My mistake.

 

- Gaeb

[stellerwinds]

Zek. I'm not saying i cant win againt red. I win against red about as often as i win againt the other stances. And i've won my fair share of 10 rounders.

 

I've seen enough combat to point out a real problem with hit detection and a unblance between the styles.

Just because i've learned enough to adapt to these problems doesnt mean the problems are now alright. Quite the contrary. I understand them better and want them fixed.

 

I'm not caring about MY win/loss ratio here. I want to see the stances fixed a bit.

[MrCrusher]

I'll quote meself

 

Blue stance would be a lot more useful if it could block all red-stance attacks when you spec to level three in defense.

 

What is the use in specing to three defense anyway, you still have to be constantly running from red-stance attacks. There really is no point in trying to block anything.

 

I would make specing in defense and blue more useful by combining the two to make high-defense-blue-stance.

 

Better blocking would allow for better control during a duel when there is any lag. And adding Level three defense to blue-stance would also make up for its lack of range.

 

...and a proper parry that stuns the attacker for a moment leaving them open for a counter attack would slow down heavy reds and button mashers.

[Zek]

Light stance is one thing, but I've blocked plenty of heavy swings in medium stance... Whether or not you want to risk it is your choice, but it is easily possible.

[MrCrusher]

Light stance is one thing, but I've blocked plenty of heavy swings in medium stance... Whether or not you want to risk it is your choice, but it is easily possible.

 

Thats odd, I've been trying to block red stance with anything and everything and my findings are that it is the quickest way to end up dead.

[stellerwinds]

Ugh.

 

You still dont get what im talking about. Maybe you will one day.

 

I'm not talking about being able to block red shots. Of course you can block some shots. No one is saying red is impossible to block an automatically kills.

 

There is a real problem with the hit detection of some of the red moves. Until you actually realize these you just wont understand what we are talking about here.

[MrCrusher]

Yes Stellar,

 

We see about three rants a day on the red stance hit detection. I'm sure thats an issue Raven is looking in to. You might want to re-read your first post in this thread. Your not talking about hit detection your implying that there isn't enough balance between the stances for NF-sabre.

 

.....and I completely agree with the point your making. I'm just making a suggestion on how to fix it.

[Simplex]

How about the specials eh?

 

I use red style and do the lunge attack, 9 times out of 10 its an instant kill.

 

Even if the guy is to my side, all I have to do is turn my saber, which is on the ground for 2.3 seconds towards him, and WHAM he dies. Collision detection problem there...should do damage as if the sabre was touching him, not as if it struck him.

 

The medium overhead headchop is really bad in multiplayer, for I feel it does not have good enough detection, as it did in single player.

 

The reason there are 2 .exe's I assume, are because of the saber physics. They are totally different, and if Raven is going to fix the problems we have, it may take alot of work....but what do I know?

 

So, I use red and medium, never blue. Red swipe once to hurt him, then yellow to finish.

[Tree]

Originally posted by Jiro Kage

I used to swordfight too (Iiado), and I understand completely what you say.

 

 

Just remember, it is different with a lightsaber, as the cutting power is not increased by weight or force put into the swing. The thought that the slower swing allows more contact time with the blade works well in relation to the saber.

 

Its Iaido and it isn't sword fighting. That is the art of drawing the sword.

 

Kendo is sword fighting.

[stellerwinds]

Ya i want equal importance out of each stance too. That WAS what i was trying to get at. But whenever i point out the hit detection problem there are always these uninformed people that say "it must be lag" and dismiss it, which sets me off!

 

But there should be more usefullness for each stance.

 

And for your information, AVOIDING a red user has nothing to do with what stance you are using does it?

I could be using blue, yellow or red as well and you guys allways gota say, "well just avoid his swings."

DUH.

Don't any of you notice that is all that happens in multiplayer???

 

ITs like a bunch of spazzes playing. Everyone running around avoiding each others swings until someone gets a lucky connect.

 

It's like a friggin bumber car park in the saber only maps. Thats the BEST description for it, a bumper car park!

 

We should be seeing some real styles going on here, and total avoidance of one style as the "accepted" method of combatting it is rather pathetic.

 

If a blue were to try and "trade shots" with a red. Thinking he could get in quick with his shot and get out before the red hits him. Well think again. Red's love that, cuz they would gladly trade the hit with a blue knowing the damage they do. And they know a blue cant get a hit in from the front and leave before they get their hit.

And attacking from the side or behind has nothing to do with what stance you are using now does it. You hardly move faster if you are using the blue stance now do you.

 

Stances should have real strengths and weaknesses. Not strengths OR weakness.

[Tree]

Don't listen to the n00bs stellerwind. Don't let them get you worked up.

 

Take a WILD guess at what stance they use. Look at the ignorance in their posts. The don't want to lose there no skill weapon because they have no other means of killing people. Thus they call anyone who wants a balanced game a "whiner"

 

I let it rest for a little bit but it has gotten REALLY BAD. I can't play FFA SABERS ONLY with out at least 2 or 3 assholes doing the one-hit/kill jump over and over and over. Or just the heavy-*****ing in general. These people have skill? How come they can't even beat other strong stance users? All their "SKILL" goes right out the window when they run into another strong-stance *****. Spec them. Its hillarious.

 

I play NF duels a lot also. It doesn't matter how many times you post that you are talking about NF duels. You will continue to get moronic responses on how easy it is to kill strong stance players.

Have you ever seen these guys? I know I haven't.

 

But its not just imbalanced in NF duels though. Its just that force powers can help. But most strong stance *****s use drain also.

 

It is very difficult to get inside on them. Making the attack slower doesn't hinder them at all. You waste to much time on them, trying to get inside on them. Since all they do is swing run back, jump back, or roll back, then repeat.

 

I think most good players realize that it is imbalanced and now that it is getting worse I'm not worried that raven will take action. I just hope it is soon.

 

For you ppl that hate posts like this. You will continue to see them. Why? Ppl know it is gay.

Notice how you don't see any topics on how Medium or light stance is gay. Because they take skill.

 

I don't agree with you on the luck thing. I hit where I want.