Ye Gods gimme a break....

[Azalaszh]

Ok, so this is how it went for me and JK2....(bitterish rant forthcoming, sorry)

 

I buy the game, I install it, I devellop a massive addiction after about 10 minutes' play time...I'm sure you know the feeling.

 

But then the unthinkable happens. I realize I'm playing a game where marksmanship isn't too important...where coordination with saber and Force powers is secondary...to my ability to friggin' TIME MY JUMPS!!!!

 

I play lots of FPS games, and I vastly prefer the single player types...Undying, American McGee's Alice, Max Payne....games with good solid single player gamelay. Well one thing that drives me buggy is having to refer to spoiler or walkthrough sites for a game, and JK2 has me checking every ten minutes or so.

 

The level design is horribly convoluted and illogical...well it's good, but it's also anything but intuitive...rarely is their a "hint" as to what you're supposed to do, or a clearly logical pathway. So I'm guessing the designers set it up so that players need to try, die, and reload until they get it right.

 

Case in point;

the "Hop on the garbage Hauler and hop up into the tunnel" part of the nar Shadaa Streets level (I think). I somehow fell off the garbage hauler and landed on the ledge below...so now what? is there any way back up? The Hauler ain't coming by, I can't pull it, I can't jump on it, none of the doors will open, I have nowhere to go...so what to do? Quit the game and check a walkthrough...

 

 

This scenario has repeated itself a dozen times for me in this game already. Darnit, I wanted to play a grand old game like Jedi Knight, not some wannabe console hop-hop-hop-on-the-baddies game.

 

*sigh* Sory for the pointless ans frustrated rant. S'cuse me, I need to start the game up and figure out where LEC wants me to jump to next....

[Emon]

[edit]nevermind can't get the spoiler code thingy workni[/ed]tsadfas

[RiverWalker]

if your checking walkthroughs so quickly, you are, in my opinion

 

a big wimp.

 

do you REALLY want a game that you can play through without having to work at some of the challenges?

 

for goodness sakes on regular difficulty I redid that section like 20 times, sure it was frustrating at times, but actually pulling it off, was quite satisfying,

 

geeze, you people, there are some primo scenes of a lone jedi against like 15 bad guys, where it's possible to kick all their asses without getting a scratch, I think those make a few jumping puzzles worthwhile,

[Azalaszh]

I play to have fun....endlessly jumping jumping jumping = not fun. And besides, as stated in my original post, I despise using walkthroughs. The fact I've done so often already with JK2 is a testament to the sheer "Let 'em croak and figure it out, they'll think the game is longer" mentality that's involved here.

 

Don't get me wrong...the fact that the designers DO have me coming back and hopping up and down like a mindless ball of flubber is a sign that the game's got hooks. The problem is that the good stuff is too often marred (so far) by jumping from A to B to C to...wait, lemme quickload and try again...A to...lemme quickload and try again......

 

If the jumping eases up, I'll be the first to be thrilled. If it jus becomes more jumping jumping hopping leaping, I'll play it thru and shelve it.

 

Once again class...blasters, sabers and the Force = fun. Jumping from ledge to ledge to ledge for several levels = so 1990s.

[Pedantic]

I think I'm dropping this class.

[[FTN]Topper]

What game were you playing where it was all jumping? I've been through the game twice now and don't know where you keep coming into situations where you have to time your jumps.

[Wes Janson SMR]

I pledged to myself that I would never use a guide to complete this game. No matter how hard the puzzles got, no matter how convoluted things seemed, I refused to give in to my fustrations and look things up.

 

When I finally completed the game, I felt like I really accomplished something. Didn't need to look anything up. I solved everything myself, without the help of anyone. That's all well and good.

 

But Azalaszh brings up a very good point when he says that many of the puzzles aren't "logical", that is, in their given context. One of the fruitiest examples of this is the Doomgiver level. When it comes time to hunt for the consoles to activate your main objective, you're required to do long winds of cat-like Force Jumps to reach where you need to go.

 

My question: How the hell could you get a normal Stormtrooper into these stations? Completely isolated, I'd find myself ambushed by a couple of workers, when they had no right to be there - because they shouldn't be able to get there.

 

Lack of logic puzzles of this calibur have almost cost me my life (figuratively), or Kyle's I should say..

 

Unfortunately, I did get furstrated on a couple of levels - thoroughly enough that I had to shut the game off and come back to it later for the same puzzle. These include Nar Shadaa (nearly kicked myself in the arse for not seeing it sooner), the garbage mashing level (boy, that one was too damn subtle!!), Yavin (getting your 'Saber), and navigating the swamps.

 

The puzzles were cleverly concieved, just poorly implemented in the way of applicable logic. It makes you think why enemies could reach certain locations unreachable by you.

 

Puzzles should make perfect sense at the end. You'd feel better knowing you tried the right combination the first or second time because it should work that way, not by trial and error because you haven't a clue what the hell you're doing.

 

But again, I made it through. I hope Raven learnt their lesson. My brain got a good workout, though.

[Azalaszh]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

The puzzles were cleverly concieved, just poorly implemented in the way of applicable logic. It makes you think why enemies could reach certain locations unreachable by you.

 

Puzzles should make perfect sense at the end. You'd feel better knowing you tried the right combination the first or second time because it should work that way, not by trial and error because you haven't a clue what the hell you're doing.

 

 

Ahhh, and essentially that's what I'm talking about...puzzles that you complete and then look back on, thinking "Well how the HECK was I supposed to know that???" The game's definitely entertaining, or I wouldn't want to play it as much as I do. But it would be so much more enjoyable if more of the puzzles could be completed through logic, and less through trial-and-error. Ah well..I'll finish it anyway.

[Locke101]

I think maybe the feel raven was trying to show us is that. In real life, when you come to a puzzle and such, your answer is not out in the open. I mean, your dropped into an Unknown Base and how the hell your supposed to know what does what and where something is.

 

Just MY opinion tho.

[toolboi]

Bah, its the bizzare puzzles that make JK games. Not to mention the fact that you should BY NO MEANS compare the levels of JK to Max Payne and... wait a second...

 

You say you like Alice (so do I , it rocks) but Alice has even worse jumping puzzles than JK2 (and considerably more confusing puzzles). I never played Undying past the demo, but I remember a LOT of jumping and od puzzles in the demo.

 

And as for Max Payne... well IMO those were the worst levels Ive ever played in a game (run shoot run shoot run shoot, no variety).

[Pvt_Dancer]

I don't mind jumping puzzles in JKO. I think the leaping is immensely entertaining.

 

As far as unrealistic switches and such... in Ep:4 Obi Wan has to walk out on that tiny catwalk to the other side of those pillars with a thousand mile drop just to turn off the shields. WHo puts switches in a place like that!!!? WHy not in a heavily guarded room? Hehehe...

 

Maybe thats not a good point but... I came into a few snags playing through the game but I found that just a detailed examination of my surroundings... trying to force push and pull things usually helped me out.

[Mr Tim]

Max Payne was a great game, IMHO, but it was the script that really made it. I laughed so much at the "I'm a character in a graphic novel" part - and the whole game was really quite clever. But yes, the levels did get pretty repetitive by the end - the only thing that really kept me interested was wanting to find out what happened next and that the whole thing was just so stylish.

 

And I agree that it is puzzles that really 'makes' JK/JK2 great games. Personally, I loved the Doomgiver Code puzzle - I thought that was very clever - and even the Yavin trials I thought were very good. The jumping can be hard, but I thought it was worse/harder in JK1 so I wasn't complaining too much, and tha ability to 'stick' a landing helped as well.

 

Anyway, I loved the whole thing - bring on more puzzles, I say!

[Wes Janson SMR]

Originally posted by Locke101

I think maybe the feel raven was trying to show us is that. In real life, when you come to a puzzle and such, your answer is not out in the open. I mean, your dropped into an Unknown Base and how the hell your supposed to know what does what and where something is.

 

Well, number one, that's just poor-assed planning. ;-) Talk to a SWAT officer, and he'll tell you the most important thing is to know your surroundings before you even walk onto the scene.

 

But that asside, all you need to do in JK is find all the buttons you can, and push 'em. I agree that the answers shoudln't be direct. That woudln't be fun. But JK has little logic to a lot of its puzzles. When you sove something and you look bakc, you might ask yourself, "Now why the hell would this activate that?"

 

In the garbage mashing level, I came to a complete halt when I needed to find the password. I had NO idea where I was supposed to go. I went back through every room, nook, and cranny.

 

It wasn't until I started randomly throwing my Lightsaber in peculior places was I able to proceed. Puzzles should have subtle - but not too sublte - clues to be solved. They should be challenging, but not downright headache-inducing. I literally slapped my monitor because of the puzzle placement. It was stupid. There was no clue what so ever that I needed to do what I did - completely random. That's bad.

 

But as illogical as some things are (like bizzare switch placement), the puzzles were pretty varried and fun to figure out. The Doomgiver switch hunt was pretty neat and fun, but why would a ship's comm system be devided up that way? What if they needed to make a call?

 

The majority of them would have no value in real life. Ravem made the Remnant Empire look very stupid in their structure designs. Fustrations asside, though, it was some fun stuff.

[ACGe0rge]

To be honest, I really have no idea where some of you are comming from. I do agree that ther is a bit of a lack of logic in some place in the game. For example, the big circular room at bespin whith the rings you have to jump to avoid being fried, how did the guys who snipe at you as you progree get to where they are whithout the ability to force jump? But as for needed to look up walkthoughs, there really isn't any. I was able to get through the entire game without a single hint (and I'm not that smart either). There were a few spots that I kept dying and had to try several times to figure out what to do, but I never really felt stuck. Maybe I'm just more patient than most people (doubtful) or just play way to many games and am used to the kind of puzzles game developers use (probable). The only time I think the game became almost too hard was when I decided to play at a higher difficulty and certain places, like saving the prisoners on Artus, seemed to really kick my butt. There have been games in the past that threw me for a loop but usually the answer to my problem was staring me right in the face, but I was blind or too focused on finding a different type of solution. Anyway, good luck to those having problems and I hope you can go on without having to look up answers on the internet too much

[Chewie Bakker]

 

True, the Doomgiver level where you have to jump into the the rooms and hit the right switch to set the communications to Rogue Squadron's fequency, did seem bizarre. But at least it was challenging

 

 

I'm proud to say that I did that part without dying and/or cheating, although there were a few close calls.

 

Besides, being a jedi is not all about slaughtering stormtroopers. (They slaughter battle-droids too ) Seriously, you know what I mean. It'd be boring if you just had to cut a swath through stormtroopers and didn't have to use your brain ever now and then.

 

[Creston]

Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

In the garbage mashing level, I came to a complete halt when I needed to find the password. I had NO idea where I was supposed to go. I went back through every room, nook, and cranny.

 

 

This puzzle was too freaking weird. I found it because after awhile I was getting bored, so I was just running around, shooting bowcaster bolts around corners and stuff, and for some reason that wall blew up. (I actually did this BEFORE I ever found out how to get up on the walkways, and would have seen the grate).

 

So I never got stuck on the password, then when I played it the second time, I kept standing in that room going "Didn't I blow this wall up last time?"

Shot some bolts and stuff at the wall. Didn't seem to make much of a difference. Hmm..

 

It took me longer to get through the SECOND time than it did the first time.

 

Most of the other puzzles were quite alright, even if a little too much of the "just push everything and see what happens".

Or, for example, the chamber where the pod is being made. "There has to be a way out of here," says Kyle. Yeah Kyle, I agree.

That the things behind that grate then make the welder go faster and blow up the door? Pretty far fetched in my opinion.

 

Still, I've never had too much of a problem with the "why are these troops even here?!" problem. If they don't put enemies to fight in the midst of a puzzle, then there is no breakup of the puzzle monotony.

 

I solved it without help, and it DID make me feel kinda proud that I had managed to do so.

 

Creston

[magyar]

I really do love this game and don't mind some of the puzzles. But I do scratch my head when I spend 30 minutes or so jumping around trying to get to some totally out of the way place, only to find 2 storm troopers sitting up there. How the HELL did they get there...did some dark jedi use the force to move them all? And sometimes the enemy AI can be REALLY stupid...but that's a whole nother post.

[toolboi]

it was the script that really made it

 

:eek: The horror... the horror... :eek:

 

truely, this describes the game so perfectly...

 

I hated the script, I liked the opening line but after that it became irritating. However I do admit that one of my favorite bits of dialog was the "im in a comic strip" and the (even better) "Im in a video game" parts.

"out of the corner of my eye, weapon statistics hanging in the air, time slowing down to show off my moves... I was in a video game!"

 

That rocked

 

What really was good though was the conversations that the characters would have, like the storm troopers in JK.

 

As for irritating puzzels, the one that got me the most was that one in the mined where you had to blow up the.. wahtever the **** that thing was... irradiator?... and then hop aboard the shuttle.

The password wasn a problem becasue I didnt look at it like "ok, have to g ofind pass word know" I looked at it as "cant go through here, lets find another route", and ended up stumbling upon lando.

 

Oh man... I think I have to go play that now...

and yes, the garbage facillity is the worst level in the game. I wis hyou could play the first few levels with a lightsaber...

[Demolisher]

I agree with Azalaszh 100%, this game is ridiculous!! I had the same problem with the garbage thing; I missed it and I was like "ummmm...now what!?!?!!". Also, the code thing on the Doomgiver was too tricky and I fell a few times. Raven should've made this game fun like Elite Force where you could get into the story. Jedi Knight II really needs to be redesigned or something, eventhough that's impossible now

Elite Force was meant to feel like a Star Trek Voyager episode. Thereforce, JK2 should've been made to feel like a Star Wars movie based on someone who's not a member of the Skywalker family . Now you mean to tell me that the Star Wars movies where these 8 hour movies where the characters wandered around in circles because they didn't blow a hole in a wall which required to jump 100 feet in the air and some sharpshooting sniper would kill them as soon as they tried to jump. Then after miraculously surviving that, a ****load of stormtroopers with superpowerful rocket launchers blow you them up into itty bitty pieces. I've seen the originial trilogy 200 times and don't remember any of these things happening, nor in Episode 1 .

 

I also did like the stormtrooper conversations and stuff like that though.

[Pseudofun]

i found the password almost straight away, while bouncing bowcaster bolts through the slits that the rodians fire out of, i must've hit a barrel or something, because the wall blew up...third time through, i did the same, and found the grate that you're supposed to find later, that looks down into the same room...but i don;t see how it would've been that hard to work out..if you take the time to explore the enviroment, and just don;t run through looking for the next baddy to kill..

 

doomgiver comms array=cool puzzle, loved it, i have no problem with the jumping

 

also if you tap the 'use' key you don;t slide about when you land a jump...makes things a lot easier ^_^

[Foxbatkllr]

What that guy posted is absolutely nasty. I hope he gets banned for that.

Now, as for the level on bespin with the rings...you were NOT supposed to use force jump. If you do the level correctly, you're supposed to wait for the force field to turn on the ring where you're at, and you can calmly run across...Someone w/o force powers could easily navigate that. As for comparing this game to Elite Force...DON'T. Star Trek sucks.

 

Edit: To the man who said "Blasphemy" below me...I'll say it again...Star Trek sucks.

[Madjai]

"Star Trek sucks."

 

BLASPHEMY!!!

[DarthMark]

FPS games r not supposed to be waltzed through, they shud b fun but challenging, thats y cheating sucks apart from if it means u can cut ppls limbs off easier

dont jus look at a guide cus its difficult work it out and for everyones sake stop whining, this game rocks

[Justus]

Puzzles that rely on jumping, re-loading, and retrying just to make something seem hard are not puzzles. It is the sign of someone that is just not able to think of anything better, so they just throw it in there just to make it seem hard, and make the level seem big. That's okay though, not all games can match the greatness of Dark Forces or Jedi Knight.

[funkyeire]

agreed. anything causing imminent death should have a warning, and the puzzles (jump die reload) should be gone altogether--takes away from realism. i dont think a jedi would have a hard time jumping onto a crate and then sliding off the other side...