Sadly, I have asked my gaming clan not to purchase this game.

[FWH Lasker]

The Fight With Honor (FWH) gaming clan has been in existence for nearly 5 years and is composed of approixmately 50 members (http://www.fightwithhonor.org). We have been a part of the beta testing community for such titles as Age of Empires, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call/Dark Majesty, and Dungeon Siege.

 

I have unfortunately had to post on our forums today informing them of the imbalance in the heavy stance and requested that they refrain from purchasing this game. I will also be cross posting on other gaming clan sites such as House of Sagacious (HoS) informing them of my findings so that they do not have to experience the utter disgust I have.

 

I logged onto the hosting.com server today, one of the last vestiges of skillful saber combat (read medium/light stance users). I played for a few hours and noticed the top 4 scorers were all heavy stance users. They were leading by a minimum of 12-15 kills.

 

This evening I logged onto CDGaming.com. I counted 6 demented bunny hoppers tonight. All of them spending 90% of their time avoiding combat engagement. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Backup and swing. Get lucky and kill. Move onto next opponent. Backup and swing... you get the picture.

 

As more and more people figure out that heavy stance is the only way to win, this is what saber fighting is inevitably deteriorating into - backup and swing. It's more like jousting than saber fighting.

 

So, until such time as Raven Software delivers on the promised "weakness" in heavy stance (sufficient open periods for counter-attack to be viable), then I really cannot recommend the purchase of this game to my clan or any other gaming clan I have contact with.

 

I once again make an impassioned plea to Raven Software to release a patch which implements saber combat in the way they intended it to be.

[NewBJedi]

*Folds arms and sticks out tongue*

 

Waaah...

 

So basically you are going around telling people that you can't deal with a game and are going to bash a dev team - saying there is one feature I don't like therefore don't buy the game - that way there will be no funding for future any patches.

 

Real smart!

[NewBJedi]

slander

 

\Slan"der\, n. [OE. sclandere, OF. esclandre, esclandle, escandre, F. esclandre, fr. L. scandalum, Gr. ??? a snare, stumbling block, offense, scandal; probably originally, the spring of a trap, and akin to Skr. skand to spring, leap. See Scan, and cf. Scandal.] 1. A false tale or report maliciously uttered, tending to injure the reputation of another; the malicious utterance of defamatory reports; the dissemination of malicious tales or suggestions to the injury of another.

 

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=slander

 

Your intent is to hurt this game, its community, and the dev team because you aren't getting your way.

 

A mod could easily fix this supposed problem - but you are telling people not to purchase the game which will end up in no support and no mod community - that is if you had an actual impact with your actions (telling people not to buy the game).

 

You're pretty much asking for a forum ban.

 

I'd be surprised if they don't do it.

[KPeh]

It is quite possible for someone with equal skill for their stance to kill someone using heavy (out manouvre as one tatic). However, it wouldn't surprise me that you are unable too - you seem to be more of an RPG or RTS player.

 

KPeh

(I may be wrong about you not being so much a FPS player, but I'm sure some members of your clan -- at least, wouldn't be so, surely?).

[Rogue15]

i agree, bunny hopping is pathetci1!! it's such an exploit, i mean, who would do that in the movies? u don't see obiwan jumping around like a saber-wielding kangaroo! I've only experienced bunny hopping in jedi knight mp and sometimes mots. I've gotten used to it though...

[MrCrusher]

Lasker,

 

How long has the game been out?!

 

If Raven were to release a patch hastely and untested, they would probably piss-off a lot more players than are pissed now regarding red-stance.

 

Give it time.

 

There are ways around the red-stance. I played on an old friends server last night. He somehow enabled "force push" only . This one force power completely negates red-stance. He also slowed game speed slightly which seemed to allow for better reaction time and control.

 

Folks are starting to figure out ways around the Non Force dueling exploit.

 

Making demands means nothing really and sounds kind of silly. It is only those who take your advice and not that of the majority of favorable reviews that ultimately lose. Other than a bug thats will soon get stepped on by patch or mod JO is an excellent game.

 

The MORPG style of making demands for the weekly patch-up really only works for games like DAoC an AO.......

 

While waiting for an anouncment or patch try and find other ways to enjoy JO online.

[Pvt_Dancer]

DONT START ARGUING OVER BUNNYHOPPING! Damn... that has been done to DEATH.

 

Dude, he isn't telling people not to buy it.... he said he couldn't recommend it and asked his clan not to add it to their games because he feels that as is its not working well enough for them to spend time and money on. Thats his perogative and it doesn't require a forum ban at all. In fact, I am a little shocked you even suggested it. I see no intent to damage the game, in fact, he is pleaing for the problem he sees to be fixed (which is just about ALL anyone has been doing).

[NewBJedi]

I suggest you re-read his post.

 

He wrote:

 

"I have unfortunately had to post on our forums today informing them of the imbalance in the heavy stance and requested that they refrain from purchasing this game."

 

and:

 

"I will also be cross posting on other gaming clan sites such as House of Sagacious (HoS) informing them of my findings so that they do not have to experience the utter disgust I have."

 

He's saying for people not to buy the game, because (waaah) he's not getting his patch 'right now'. He's also spreading this information around beyond his own personal clan/forum.

 

He's using a sort of passive aggressive approach - if he doesn't get everything his way, he'll condemn the game and tell others not to buy it - which is just silly. It's not going to cause Raven to listen to his perspective. He's basically shooting his own foot to get a sprained ankle fixed.

 

In the end he ends up damaging his foot, never fixing the sprain, and losing the ability to walk properly - to further the analogy.

 

Threatening a company like this is, is the best way to alienate oneself from the game's community and the dev team.

[Rogue15]

and you're worried, why?

[NewBJedi]

I enjoy the game tremendously.

 

The people who enjoy the game are really very cool and devoted to the game - not in a sense of giving one's life to it, but just that they all seem to share that sense of joy and addiction when having fun on a server - more than most games I've seen lately.

 

I highly respect Raven's work - every game should have a Raven-like development team behind it.

 

I don't want to see this game and the community get hurt by a loud vocal minority - especially if that minority supports the game's demise due to any circumstance.

 

I've seen it happen before to a community/game/dev, and it's important to stop the irrational negativity before it gets worse.

 

Is that a satisfactory answer?

[ShadowCode]

Hmmm. You sound like a 6 year old kid, wanting to boss others. It's your own choice wether to advice this game to others, or not.

 

If you don't want to buy this game because the multiplayer mode isn't flawless, go ahead, fine by me. I really can't care. Tell the others that you don't like this game. They'll decide themselves anyway. The singleplayer version of this game is really really really good, but I guess you can't boss other people then. Lamer.

[FWH Lasker]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I enjoy the game - especially the single player portion of it.

 

But our gaming clan is an online one so the MP aspect of it will naturally follow for our members. I could not, in good conscience, keep my findings on heavy stance imbalance to myself (no good tester would) and allow the other members to experience what I have.

 

I stand by my statement. And if asked by any other online gaming clans, I will give the same statement = great game, but refrain from purchasing it until the MP imbalances have been worked out. The fact that it *is* a great game is what makes it all the more disappointing. So close... so very close.

 

This is not slander Newb. Slander implies using false statements and everything I stated is based on fact. Go spectate on the servers. You'll find that all the leaders now use heavy stance. Now, over the last week, I see the count of players using heavy stance steadily increasing so they can retain a winning score. Extrapolate this a month from now and my worst nightmare comes true. Everyone will be a heavy stance user because it is the only way to compete.

 

I am not against this dev team. I'm not sure where you picked that up. For the record let me be straight. I believe the dev team has done an awesome job at this game. What I am doing is imploring the dev team to deliver on the functionality they have stated - sufficient open moments in heavy stance for counter attack to become viable.

 

A heavy stance user who misses should pay for that miss. Currently, he does not. He simply backups and tries again. And again, and again... This is not slander, it is simple truth. It is the winning method currently employed (by more and more people unfortunately) because the stated weakness which should exist does not materialize.

 

No one can force Raven Software to make changes. They have to come to that conclusion through their own testing and hopefully the testing of the gaming community. Reporting those findings is an important part of insuring game enjoyablility evolves into the product - not out of it.

 

MrCrusher and Kpeh are both very correct and I take their advice to heart. I do apologize for my impatience in wanting a fix for this so soon. There's nothing worse than patching something without fully testing its effect on balance first.

 

I will strive to be more patient and await the talented dev team, or the equally brilliant MOD community to creatively address the issues.

[Uncle Meat]

Far from being a master saber fighter, I have to wonder at your reasoning and abilities here. Every game, without exception, seems to have it's particular class/weapon/ability that everyone cries out against during the initial phase of MP adjustment. Over time, however, these tends to diminish as the more accomplished players use ingenuity and skill to find the weakness in said "overpowered" areas.

 

In five years of online gaming, I'm QUITE sure you've encountered play imbalance before. It's something that is almost impossible to avoid. It's also something that is, more often than not, quite easy to overcome, if for nothing else than for it's predictability. I remember people whining and lamenting about the elite german snipers in the Day of Defeat half-life mod. We all managed to work around that annoyance. In response to community whining, the developers nerfed the sniper rifle so badly that it goes almost totally unused, requiring multiple chest shots to kill. But I digress...

 

The heavy stance problem, to me, doesn't seem to be much of a problem. The insane amount of telegraphing that always seems to follow their trademark deathblow is like a flashing neon warning light to be avoided, sidestepped, and exploited. Surely an accomplished online gamer could come up with the concept of sidestepping and swiping at their side as you run past?

 

I've used medium stance since I've started playing the game, and I can hold my own against the run-of-the-mill saber fanatics one finds on servers you're describing. I find the heavy users the easiest to deal with. I get worried when I see people changing stances multiple times, or owning people with light. You have to step back and consider they actually know what they are doing, rather than relying on a single killer move.

 

In short, deal with it. It doesn't unbalance gameplay very much, if at all in my opinion.

[Uncle Meat]

..and apologies if i came across somewhat rude in that last post, but I've been cruelly deprived of coffee this morning.

[FWH Lasker]

Hehe - no problem Uncle Meat. I had to make the coffee myself, so I guess I'll type this up while it's brewing...

 

Yes, game imbalances occur in every game. No game, honestly, is ever completely balanced. It is an ongoing process of tweaking and *small* modifications which keeps a game tuned and running smoothly. Large changes which alter the very mechanics of the game will quickly make it frustrating to play. You can't change the rules like that.

 

What determines whether an imbalance should be corrected is when it interferes sufficiently with game enjoyability. Small imbalances can be delt with through tactics and teamwork. Many times just discovering a tactic to defeat an imbalance makes it enjoyable. No tweak is even necessary and scorces will begin to reflect that.

 

Large imbalances are easily identifiable as significant portions of the players will begin to utilize it. People aren't stupid. If you can bring a bazooka to a fist fight - why not?

 

Yes, there is an insane amount of telegraphing that occurs before a heavy stance users begins his attack. It is easily avoidable (and should be). The death blow should be used when when your opponent is incapacitated (like when being kicked to the ground). But instead it is being employed as a general purpose attack.

 

The concept of swiping at their side as you run past sounds plausible, but in battle it doesn't pan out that way. I am definitely open to more tactical suggestions here.

 

The problem is that in order to attack, you have to evade his attack (which has a much greater range) *and* close within your own saber range. If you don't evade, you die. Since heavy stance recovery time does not impede his ability to retreat (except for the death blow), your ability to engage him for counter attack is minimal.

 

Rolling around to his backside was a good suggestion and I have used it. The beauty of rolling is that it is faster than running. As the heavy stance user runs at you and swings, it is possible to roll around him. Not under him (you'd get hit), but actually around him. If timed exactly right, you can end up momentarily at his backside. The unfortunate part is that there is a recovery time associated with a roll (as you get up). This delay is sufficient for him to retreat outside of saber range and keep running backward. Again, he can retreat as fast as I can persue. Counter attack is again minimal.

 

As a medium stance user Uncle Meat, I would very much enjoy any battles we would have should we meet on the battlefield. Battling together in a Team FFA would be even more enjoyable. I find myself respecting people I engage in medium stance battles with immensly. Regardless of who wins or loses, they are always incredibly enjoyable.

 

I remember a guy by the name of Jix who consistently beat me in medium stance on hosting.com. He was awesome and I walked away with the upmost respect for him.

 

I find myself spectating alot more these days trying to see if any other medium stance users have developed a tactic for consistently defeating heavy stance users. If you have such a tactic, would you mind if I spectated so that I could learn?

[n0th1ng]

i have to agree that red is WAY overpowered, but i manage to dodge most of them and get some good yellow stance blows in

[Uncle Meat]

The side-swiping I was speaking of does work with a fair degree of success, but you're correct in that it often doesn't pan out that way in the heat of a battle.

 

For the most part, when going up against a heavy, I find myself doing a good amount of rolling, flipping and sabre throwing while waiting for them to get sloppy and commit to a long slow swing pointing at a place where I'd already sidestepped from. Of course, if the duel is taking place in narrow confines, this gets considerably more difficult, as you can really only move back, forward, and up. Either way, you're just postponing the inevitable.

 

I'll be sparring with a friend tonight who uses heavy, and I'll be certain to pay more attention to how I react to those swings.

[Morcavalin]

"I have unfortunately had to post on our forums today informing them of the imbalance in the heavy stance and requested that they refrain from purchasing this game. I will also be cross posting on other gaming clan sites such as House of Sagacious (HoS) informing them of my findings so that they do not have to experience the utter disgust I have. "

 

 

 

 

Whatever.

 

Who cares?

[Sartis]

Dodging Heavy isn't so hard, its being able to get a hit in while your dodging thats annoying and makes it slightly unbalanced, my personal opinion is if you have heavy stance on you should get hit for 10-20% more damage from light/medium hits. Your supposed to have the worst defense with heavy stance, but its the same as all the others, I think that would be a good way to 'even' the battle field. You still have the power of Strong but would stop you from swinging around wildley since you pay the price if you get hit for once =p

[Sir Losealot]

Originally posted by Morcavalin

Whatever.

 

Who cares?

 

We don't care about your post, neither. Just unregister yourself from the forum as soon as you can and spare us your attitude.

[TodenEngel]

I have but one opinion.

 

I can understand that you are the leader of a clan and you have only the best interests of the clan in mind. And if you wish to advise them not to play this game online or in any other MP fashion that is your option and your duty as a clan leader.

 

However it is my opinion that it is wrong of you to advise them not to purchase the game itself. It is true that the Multiplayer aspect of this game has a few bugs, as any game does. But the Single Player aspect of this game is incredible, you have said so yourself. To advise people to not buy this game is to deny them the opportunity to enjoy the SP aspect of this game as much as the rest of us have.

 

I do not in anyway disagree with your view on Heavy Stance fighting. But please do not ask people to boycott the entire game based on one aspect of it.

 

Thanks for your time and for this most interesting topic.

 

TodenEngel.

[ACGe0rge]

FWH Lasker, it sounds to me like your problem sin't really with the STrong stance but with the bunny hopping. I agree with you that the bunny hopping explait need to be fixed because it does unbalance the game both in the recovery time for sstrong stance, and the fact that people can use it to move faster than force speed will allow. I've only had one player dominate me using Strong stace and didnt realize, until reading this post, that they were using the bunny hop manuver to do it. Actually, I have found the easiest guys to beat are the ones who use Strong stance due to its slow recovery time.

 

I was somewhat suprised when you said you keep encountering the bunny hopping strong stace players. I play almost every night and have only come across one. There are a lot who keep jumping to use the finishing move, but they still have the long recovery time at the end. You just have to know when and how to dodge.

 

There is one thing I am really confused about. You say you are part of a large gaming community but worry that they all will face the same problems you have. It seems to me that you guys could create your own servers and make whatever rules for those servers you want. If someone is a bunny hopper, you could all have an agreement to kick that player. And if you dont want to create your own, it shouldnt be too hard to find some that follow their own honor code. This forum is full of posts about a Saberists Code that many follow when playing MP.

 

I agree that there eventually should be a patch to fix some of the exploits in the game. So far, I have only found 2 which include the bunny hop, and those who use the skin of Kyles hands making them almost invisible.

 

I dont know if this will change your mind but I hope it does. I hate to think the you, and your online friends will miss out on one of the greatest MP games ever made.

[FWH Lasker]

Toden, you are absolutely correct in that it was wrong of me to advise them not to purchase the product simply based on the MP aspect of the game.

 

We are an online gaming clan, but that does not excuse the fact that I could not seperate my frustration with the MP aspect of the game from the SP aspect and I do apologize for that.

 

I have added another post on our forums to ammend this:

 

http://pub70.ezboard.com/ffightwithhonorfrm10.showMessage?topicID=90.topic

 

ACGeOrge, you have it correct that the Fight With Honor clan expects from its members the same type of behavior that the Saberists Code layed out. It was funny - reading their procedures was like reading the policy we already abide by.

 

Yes, we could start our own servers but I'm not sure how we could enforce a no heavy stance policy. We could boot the offending players, but that seems rather harsh since the game mechanics allow it. I'm loathe to police the players in such a way. As suggested in another thread, if the MOD community could do this within the game itself, it would be a great boon to increasing the enjoyability of saber combat.

 

Heavy stance is a good idea and I believe it should be an option for the agressive style of player. But it must be balanced by its intended weakness and the scores should reflect this. An ideal game would have the top scorers all utilizing the different stances. Currently, this is not so.

[Solo4114]

I have to say that I agree with Lasker to a point. It's true that Heavy Stance is used a lot by people, and that it's extremely powerful. Honestly, though I haven't been playing MP at all lately, when I was playing MP, I didn't see a whole lot of deathstrokes being dealt. The few times I tried it, I'd either not manage to do it properly, or I'd end up just missing the guy as he rolled out of the way.

 

That said, I have to say that Medium and Light stance are woefully underpowered by comparison. As has been said elsewhere, these stances SHOULD operate the way they do in SP. In SP, when a shadowtrooper or reborn uses red stance, if you're in blue stance, you can block just about every swing he makes at you, then switch to yellow and deal him a few quick hits. In MP, since you hardly ever block anyway, the supposed advantages and disadvantages of the various styles really don't materialize outside of their special moves. IE: the backstab on light, the flip attack on medium, and the deathstroke on heavy. Most of the time, I've seen sabre combat (outside of duel servers) degenerate into rushing at your opponent, swinging heavy, and hoping you hit. That's not much fun to me, which is why (along with the slight imbalance in force powers, the dull CTF levels, and the uselessness of the sabre vs. guns) I stopped playing the game. For the time being, though, I think that voicing our concerns on this and other forums is about the only way that SOME change may be affected. Even if Raven doesn't patch the game, hopefully someone will mod the game at some point (don't get your hopes up on anything under 6 months) when they release the SDK.

[Beefshank]

I don't think you guys are giving the MP a chance. I say this because I felt exactly how you do a week ago. But I stayed with it. I NEVER use heavy stance. Don't even have points in it. I dont think it's fun to play with a broadsword type stroke. Anyway, I hae gotten to the point where I do pretty damn good against Strong Stance players. Now The Death From Above (DFA) one hit-one kill move is lame. But I rarely get hit by it in one-on-one fighting. THE ONLY use of it that still drives me crazy are the guys who charge into other peoples fights, and use it on 2 or 3 people at once. Then type, "hehehehe". These spammers (and most likely kids) do suck. But I think I've actually seen it less in this last week. Maybe people are starting to get the hint.

 

In any case, when I get frustrated in a game, I leave and find another. Tonight I played for several hours with a guy who only used strong style, to my medium. But he did NOT spam the DFA, so it was a lot of fun. And I got a lot of practice blocking strong attacks. I also died a lot, but so did he. No big deal.

 

I hope they balance things better too. But this game is a lot of fun. And I have no problems finding cool people to play with. And I'm only using The Zone so far. Keep at it. It IS worth it!