Star Wars Versus Star Trek

[Amorpheus]

Originally posted by Kurgan

1) The Borg cube in ST First Contact, the "hardy" one that makes it all the way to Earth (they adapted to all that firepower on the way right?) is destroyed by the measly firepower of the Enterprise E (and if you want, that tiny band of other ships).

 

2) Now unleash the firepower of the Deathstar (the first one even). Enough power to destroy a PLANET (thousands of times larger than the cube) with a planetary SHIELD even (Alderaan). Methinks that at that beam spread, the Death Star could wipe out a FLEET of Cubes if they wanted to. Don't forget the Deathstar has hyperdrive.. so it's not like the cubes could just "run away" (I'd hazard to say that even with their "transwarp").

 

3) Obviously you need thousands of times more energy in the beam to blow up a shielded planet than a few mile long spacecraft. So there you have the ability to increase power in the weapons.

 

4) Because in ST, 99.999% of the shields use the same "pulsing" model. All you need is the frequency and boom, you're in. Pretty crappy shields if you ask me. Star Wars has multiple shield types, that behave differently. So let's say a Borg tries to walk through a certain SW shield.. woosh! Vapor. Now let's say they try to BEAM through.. oops again, all that jamming and thick armor made it impossible for them to get through. Doh! Maybe they can run away.. oops, they can't.

 

5) One's pseudo-science, the other magic. What's the difference?

 

6) So you're judging by appearance now? Which is prettier.. a corvette, or an M1 Tank? Which one would win in a fight? Appearance matters not. Besides, a borg cube is just a giant grey rubix cube covered in wires. This isn't a beauty contest!

 

7) The Millennium Falcon can reach the galactic core (assuming they entered our galaxy and started from earth) in about 7 hours. How long would it take the Enterprise D, assuming they could go at Warp 9.999 etc? Hmm.. over 50 years.

 

8) Granted, the radiation would kill you long before you got there, but at least the Falcon's shields would protect you longer than the Enterprise's!

1) How was the Death Star in ANH destroyed by a ridiculous number of rebel fighters? By exploiting a weakness.

 

And I'm sure the Federation ships did their best to minimize adaptation by means of Technobabble™.

 

2) Maybe it could hit the rather slow borg cubes(unless they change their approach), but I doubt the same goes for species that actually move their ships around in combat. Anyhow, they could run away, it's not necessarily a matter of speed - they'd just warp out and be gone before the imperial crew could think about entering hyperspace. I've never seen anything that indicated that SW sensors are any better than crude - heck, the Falcon could hide ON a Star Destroyer. And weren't it's shields supposed to vaporize it or something?

 

3) I didn't mean power output, but modifying the way it works to break possible adaptation.

 

4) That's where the improved shields come in (because of the Borg and Dominion conflicts... there's actual progress in ST, as opposed to being stale). And there's other types, too, just not common so they remain rather unnoticed.

 

AFAIK they've never even tried to explain how the oh-so-superior SW shields are supposed to work, so you can only assume (once again) that they would stop the Borg.

 

5) That one tries to appear realistic and therefor doesn't have overpowered ships and weapons on a daily basis without some explanation.

 

6) All I'm saying is that Star Trek ships have more style. And the only thing that makes a cube a rubik's cube are the colors, so how does a grey/green Borg cube compare to it any more than to any other cube?

 

7) And the Borg conduits seen in Voyager's finale can do the same in minutes. Just transwarp can cross the galaxy in mere hours, too.

 

8) Anything else than SW-bias that makes you say that? I've never seen a Star Wars ship in the corona of a sun.

[Amorpheus]

Oh, and that the ST ships have more style (and sleek design doesn't really matter in space) is, of course, only opinion - don't hit me!

Originally posted by Executor32

I suggest all of you read the page linked to on the previous page, http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire. It offers an excellent comparison of this sort between differant technologies of SW and ST

Excellent? Only if you consider some nerd's calculations as representative. Does anyone believe that there's enough thought behind the movies to warrant such extensive calculations, if any at all? Needless to say it's also extremely biased.

 

I wonder what the guy would say against Pegasus-cloaked transphasic torpedoes fired by a cloaked shuttle.

[Guest Forceflow]

Hehe, I just LOVE those ST vs SW thready. I don'T think I EVER saw a SW board that didn't have one of those. (I actually seem to find them a lot less on ST boards though. But then, I don't visit those that ofetn. While I do enjoy ST I find the community not that nice... dunno why)

 

A Borg vs. Jedi Match. That's hard. I think in the end it would depend. If it's one Borg against one Jedi the Jedi would win no problem. But the prob with Bogs is that they never are really alone. So if there would be a bunch of Borg the situation looks different. Then it would depend if the Borg could adapt their shielding to deflect the lightsaber or not. Though I think the Borg would still have trouble fighting a Jedi. They are not that good in hand-tohand-combat (the Borg that is) and they rely on playin strenght and number. Sooner or later they would wear out the Jedi but would certainly take a large amount of losses. The big question is, can a Jedi be assimilated at all? And if he can be assimilated, would he still be able to use the force?

 

In the end I don't think this can be answered as both universes are completely different.

[RoyalGuard]

Thank you Kurgan for comprehending my post,

 

for the more obtuse of you out there...

 

goes for species that actually move their ships around in combat

 

The Deathstar Prototype had sufficient targeting capacity to hit a fighter (admittedly it aimed at a cluster of fighters but still.) Considering that most ST ships save the defiant and analagous ships are far less manouverable, bye bye fleet.

 

How was the Death Star in ANH destroyed by a ridiculous number of rebel fighters? By exploiting a weakness.

 

One many ST ships would be hard pressed to exloit. Only fighters could get in the trench to hit the exhaust port (angle is too steep for a direct hit otherwise) and ST fighters only carry pulse weapons...

 

that the Borg could adapt and simply absorb the beam - or something else

 

Borg adaptation increases the efficiency of their shields in resisting weapons with a phased frequency, or by concentrating shield strength in torpedo burst areas, or by accelerating regeneration. The Death Star superlaser and derivatives there off is not a phased weapon, has no burst effect, cannot be regenrated and is so powerful that only a Borg vessel of equivalent size (perhaps the Borg nexus) would have the corresponding power to resist it.

 

Try to imagine JO without the Star Wars license. And there is no force or lightsabers in Star Trek, that's all JO has over other FPS games.

 

JO could have been done with the same engine, using 'laser swords' or what ever and still been immensely enjoyable because of the SP and MP gameplay - the use of the sword. Take away the ST license from EF and it's an inferior Q3 copy.

 

What, that Hyperspace is, once again, magic that even needs calculations to use, whereas Warp (like Transwarp etc.) can be activated when you need it?

 

Warp also requires calculations, what do you think engineers do all day? Seriously, Hyperdrive = Galactic Centre -> Rim in 48 hours. Warp = Galactic Centre -> Rim in 70 or so years...

 

No ST ship (even Transwarp is only equivalent to, and needs infrastructure to maintain) can outrun SW ships with Military Hyper-drives.

 

) I like how you say "real fleet" as if the number of ships in a fleet determined that SW was better than ST

 

That was a poorly referenced response to previous posters who thought the UFP had a chance against the Empire...

 

sorry for the confusion.

 

As for Q HE WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING, HE'D SIT BACK, WATCH AND LAUGH.

 

 

Again people seem to think like I don't like ST, they're wrong, I love TNG and DS9 once they get past the first couple of seasons and I think that Enterprise has huge potential, but Star Wars is just done better and the ships in that universe would own any ST vessel because their capabilities are not restrained by pseudo-science and treknobabble.

[Amorpheus]

Originally posted by RoyalGuard

1) The Deathstar Prototype had sufficient targeting capacity to hit a fighter (admittedly it aimed at a cluster of fighters but still.)

 

2) One many ST ships would be hard pressed to exloit. Only fighters could get in the trench to hit the exhaust port (angle is too steep for a direct hit otherwise) and ST fighters only carry pulse weapons...

 

3) JO could have been done with the same engine, using 'laser swords' or what ever and still been immensely enjoyable because of the SP and MP gameplay - the use of the sword. Take away the ST license from EF and it's an inferior Q3 copy.

 

4) No ST ship (even Transwarp is only equivalent to, and needs infrastructure to maintain) can outrun SW ships with Military Hyper-drives.

 

5) That was a poorly referenced response to previous posters who thought the UFP had a chance against the Empire...

 

6) Star Wars is just done better and the ships in that universe would own any ST vessel because their capabilities are not restrained by pseudo-science and treknobabble.

1) Where exactly did Lucas say that and why should anyone believe it?

 

2) Take any torpedo, equip it with Pegasus cloaking device (basically shifts it out of this reality), target power core and fire from any cloaked ship. Makes easy work of anything...

 

3) The saber and magical powers would still be all it had over other Q3 games, while the negative points likely would be noticed more easily without the SW license.

 

4) The fixed transwarp conduits that are far superior do, but standard transwarp doesn't.

 

5) See 2. It's time to stop toying around.

 

6) The lack of detailed information in Star Wars is why it seems like that to you. Again, see 2 - a cloaked transwarp ship equipped with those would make short work of every bigger ship SW has to offer.

[Thrown Saber]

Well, you have to agree that the whole Borg vs Jedi debate just contradicts itself. However, the Jedi could actually harm the Borg easily. Though Borg may adapt to blasters, and possibly lightsabers, they can't adapt to the Force. A Borg's bloodstream is filled with microscopic nanoprobes which are what grow borg implants and make the skin all white, etc. A Jedi could use the Force to simply pull the nanoprobes or the Borg implants straight out of a Borg, and just use the Force to pull different parts of a Borg's body in different directions. Which would tear him apart. Plus, Jedi can Force jump away from Borg, Force push and pull them, and use Force lightning to fry their circuits. There's not really a way a Borg could sneak up on a Jedi successfully, cause the Jedi would sense him and react sooner than the Borg does.

 

On the other hand, there are trillions upon trillions of Borg out there. They could simply swarm a Jedi, which would eventually work, and one could sneak an Assimilation Tubule (the needle-like things Borg use to assimilate others) into a Jedi's bloodstream and assimilate him while he's busy fending off at least 25 other Borg. That would be interesting... a Borg who can use the Force. Scarey.

[Kurgan]

Warp also requires calculations, what do you think engineers do all day? Seriously, Hyperdrive = Galactic Centre -> Rim in 48 hours. Warp = Galactic Centre -> Rim in 70 or so years...

 

My calcs were different, but I was thinking of the 30,000 light years in our own galaxy, and assuming the Falcon was going at its top speed (and the Enterprise D as well, which we know it can't maintain anyway). I believe whatever the Falcon takes, the Death Star would take about 2x that. I was also talking just getting there, not round trip.

[Kurgan]

1) How was the Death Star in ANH destroyed by a ridiculous number of rebel fighters? By exploiting a weakness.

 

Yes. If you replaced those rebel starfighters with Federation starships though, I guarentee you, it wouldn't be so easy!

 

2) Maybe it could hit the rather slow borg cubes(unless they change their approach), but I doubt the same goes for species that actually move their ships around in combat. Anyhow, they could run away, it's not necessarily a matter of speed - they'd just warp out and be gone before the imperial crew could think about entering hyperspace. I've never seen anything that indicated that SW sensors are any better than crude - heck, the Falcon could hide ON a Star Destroyer. And weren't it's shields supposed to vaporize it or something?

 

I don't know about SW sensors, but ST sensors are blocked by all kinds of natural phenomena (metals, EM radiation, minerals, etc), I don't see how you have room to compare. ; )

 

People seem to think that transwarp is so fast it lets the borg dodge people all day. Why don't they do this?

 

As to the falcon:

 

Well there's two ways you could argue that. One is that they were moving so slowly that they went through the shield (ie: engines off, drifting into it), or the damage from the asteroids had weakened the shields so much, they were able to latch onto a "hole" in the shielding. How they found that part, I dunno.

 

3) I didn't mean power output, but modifying the way it works to break possible adaptation.

 

Well, I think power output matters, don't you? So far as I've seen, ST shielding works pretty much the same way, with the same weaknesses. We don't really see a weakness in SW shields, we just see either somebody going to a lot of trouble to destroy a remote shield generator, or somebody using VASTLY superior firepower to bring it down.

 

Think about this, let's say you have a plastic garbage can lid you're using as a shield, and I'm throwing snowballs at you. So I upgrade to ice balls. Now you upgrade to a metal trashcan lid, for extra protection. So I upgrade to throwing multi-ton trucks at you.

 

The thing is, the power disprepency is so great, adaptation is simply impossible. You can't adapt quickly enough to overcome that much power.

 

For example, take a soldier in a "bullet proof vest."

 

Oh wow, he survived a small caliber bullet to the chest. I'm impressed...

 

Now have a tank shoot him in the chest.

 

What... he died? Hmm.. oh well.

 

4) That's where the improved shields come in (because of the Borg and Dominion conflicts... there's actual progress in ST, as opposed to being stale). And there's other types, too, just not common so they remain rather unnoticed.

 

Are you implying that SW technology is "stale"? ; p

 

AFAIK they've never even tried to explain how the oh-so-superior SW shields are supposed to work, so you can only assume (once again) that they would stop the Borg.

 

We don't need an explanation, we've seen them in action. If the planetary shields of Alderaan can survive the Deathstar Superlaser for a fraction of a second, that's dang powerful! (considering the amount of energy required in that beam to blow up an earth-sized planet in one shot!). And then we have the ISD that can vaporize asteroids with one turbolaser blast!

 

Note in the ROTJ, you had TIE-Fighters vaporising on rebel cruiser shields without so much as a scratch. And check that Ion cannon (firing from the planet's surface) hitting the ISD, and the shields TAKING THE HITS. I'm quite impressed. The Enterprise D has trouble with one asteroid!

 

5) That one tries to appear realistic and therefor doesn't have overpowered ships and weapons on a daily basis without some explanation.

 

Star Trek uses pseudo-science, which is about as unrealistic as you can get. Science is about facts, measures and quantities, not using fancy words to explain seemingly impossible phenomena. ; )

 

6) All I'm saying is that Star Trek ships have more style. And the only thing that makes a cube a rubik's cube are the colors, so how does a grey/green Borg cube compare to it any more than to any other cube?

 

Style counts for nothing in battle, to put it bluntly. It's who walks way from the fight, not who looks "better." If you want to talk style, a borg cube is a lot more boring than an ISD, which at least has some variety in its shapes. Think about it.. if you were making a game, all you'd need to make a Borg Cube is a six sided box, with a big texture. You couldn't get away with the same on an ISD!

 

7) And the Borg conduits seen in Voyager's finale can do the same in minutes. Just transwarp can cross the galaxy in mere hours, too.

 

I didn't see that one. Pity they never used it till then...

 

8) Anything else than SW-bias that makes you say that? I've never seen a Star Wars ship in the corona of a sun.

 

At least SW ships aren't destroyed or have their shields dangerously depleted by being in the photoshere of the sun!

; )

 

Incidentally, read "The Crystal Star" that gives a nice demonstration of the Millennium Falcon's shield's durability.

 

2) Take any torpedo, equip it with Pegasus cloaking device (basically shifts it out of this reality), target power core and fire from any cloaked ship. Makes easy work of anything...

 

Problem.. shields. Or are you telling me being cloaked means it passes through the shield (which isn't the type of phase dependant shields you see used almost exclusively in Trek) but not the ship?

 

In the case of an ISD, the destructive yield of a single torpedo is still too weak to take down the shields (much less destroy the ship). Otherwise we'd see X-Wings blowing up entire Star Destroyers with their proton torpedos. Instead, fighters are nearly useless against these types of cruishers.. it's like honey bees attacking a full grown elephant. Sure if you had enough of them and got lucky, but it'd be a difficult job!

[Kurgan]

Hehe, I just LOVE those ST vs SW thready. I don'T think I EVER saw a SW board that didn't have one of those. (I actually seem to find them a lot less on ST boards though. But then, I don't visit those that ofetn. While I do enjoy ST I find the community not that nice... dunno why)

 

Honestly, I think that this is the FIRST one I've ever seen since I joined the network (starting with JK.net back in '97).

 

So I guess it's about time we "got up to standards" eh? ; )

 

One thing about Borg drones, they seem to be unable to be woefully inept at adapting to physical attacks. So give the Jedi an aluminum baseball bat, and he'd make mince meat of 'em.

 

(Or give him a 1930's Thompson submachinegun)

 

not having Jeri Ryan's voice when 7 was such a prominent character

That was added in a patch.

 

Phase-Cloaks..

 

Okay, check this out:

 

It is most likely that phase-cloaked vessels will not be able to pass through super-dense matter or shields. Lieutenant-commander Geordi Laforge and Ensign Ro Laren were inadvertently phase-cloaked in The Next Phase and they were still affected by the ship's artificial gravity, with no noticeable change in the strength of that gravity. This means that the gravitic effects of super-dense matter or shields will affect phase-cloaked ships just as they affect normal ships. Furthermore, Ro and Laforge were still able to breathe the air, indicating that chemical reactions can occur between phase-cloaked and non-phase-cloaked entities. Therefore, the Enterprise-D must have been able to pass through the asteroid mass in Pegasus not because its phase cloak rendered it completely non-interactive with the rock, but because the rock was relatively inert, chemically speaking.

 

...

if phase-cloaked entities are still affected by gravity, then they must still generate gravity. This means they can be detected with CGT sensors, just like Romulan-cloaked ships. However, energy weapons like turbolasers and ion cannons will probably be useless against a phase-cloaked vessel, since phasers are known to have no interaction with out-of-phase objects as seen in The Next Phase. Although energy weapons may not be useful against a phase-cloaked ship, there may be other avenues of attack: since The Next Phase demonstrated that chemical reactions are still possible between cloaked and non-cloaked objects, a cloud of nerve gas may be lethal to the inhabitants of a phase-cloaked ship. It may in fact be stunningly effective, since the gas would quickly pass through every deck and compartment in the entire vessel thanks to the phase-cloaking effect.

 

In conclusion, the Federation phase-cloak is an interesting piece of technology since it allows passage through solid objects. However, it has limited military usefulness since phase-cloaked ships can still be affected by gravity, and their position can be given away through gravity. Furthermore, it may be possible to attack phase-cloaked ships (or more importantly, their crew) by firing nerve-gas torpedoes (set to detonate where the CGT sensors detect the ship). This may be a moot point; although they currently possess a working prototype, it is their only prototype and no further study has been conducted on it.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Special/Special1.html

[gonk-raider]

blah blah blah... obviously theres a freaking counter for everything.. STOP MAKING UP STUFF! *Well the borg*snort* would recalerbrate their sensors so they could detect the jedi! I should know*Snort* I have drawn stick figures of them and thought of many *snort numerous situations!!!! NARF! how the **** do any of you ****s know what would happen.. and this whole Q factor.. give me a freaking break you have no idea how he would react Sooo blow that whole angle out of your stupid asses

[Amorpheus]

Originally posted by Kurgan

1) People seem to think that transwarp is so fast it lets the borg dodge people all day. Why don't they do this?

 

2) Are you implying that SW technology is "stale"? ; p

 

3) And then we have the ISD that can vaporize asteroids with one turbolaser blast!

 

4) Problem.. shields. Or are you telling me being cloaked means it passes through the shield but not the ship?

1) Because it's a TV show. That's the reason the Borg sent only one ship to Earth. Twice. The same reason humans keep winning against them.

 

2) It is pretty much, isn't it?

 

3) You know, the problem with that is that Lucas just says "This ISD moves through here and blows up the asteroids as visual gimmick." without putting any thought behind it. And wouldn't those shields do all the work, anyway? I mean, come on, it's just some pathetic asteroids, no?

 

4) The cloak is a side-effect of not being there, actually. The bit you pulled from the SW site about the phase-shifted crewmen still walking around the ship is obviously nitpicking. That he wrote paragraphs about how gravity affects it only because of that is pretty weak, to put it nicely. It's a TV show, you know.

[tempest8008]

You're limiting what a Jedi could do based on the game, and the mix of technologies between the two series wouldn't work.

 

 

In ST they have Faster Than Light warp drive. In SW they have hyperspace.

 

You can catch a ship in Warp.

You canNOT catch a ship in hyperspace without an Interdictor or similar way to create an artificial gravity well. And you need to be close to where the ship will 'pass' in normal space to pull it out of Hyperspace.

 

Most ships in ST use reactionless drives (no thrust)

Ships in SW use Ion engines and other forms of propulsion.

 

As soon as you bring 'beaming' into the mix you screw things up massively for SW. How can you fight someone who can just lock on and beam you into space?

 

It's apples and oranges, people.

 

 

As to Jedi's and Borg. (sheesh, I'm gonna regret this)

 

A Jedi uses the Force, the life-energy of the Universe. A Jedi is a Knight. Defender of Justice, Freedom, and all of the nice things, including puppies and flowers and even Jar Jar Binks (shudder). A Borg is a member of a ravening species obsessed with perfecting it's mix of organic and technological, uh, stuff.

The Jedi we've seen to date have not been "masters" (except for Yoda) Even Luke is not a 'master'. He's had very little instruction, and is just feeling his way forward.

 

A Jedi Master can control the life force of the Universe. He could stop your heart beating or wipe your mind clean. One on one, a Jedi could take a Borg simply by stopping it's heart, or tripping it, or causing it's joints to freeze up. But the Borg fight in numbers. One Jedi against a dozen Borg might be able to win, especially since most Borg don't use energy weapons. One Jedi against a hundred Borg might be killed. But since the Jedi can use the Force, he or she should be able to prevent Borg nanoprobes from 'infecting' him/her. A Jedi can heal themselves from poison, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to expunge some nanoprobes. How would the Borg adapt to the lightstaber? Their energy shielding might work, but at the speeds Jedi can move could the shield form in time to block the blow? Who knows?

 

Once again, it's apples and oranges.

 

Both series have their relative merits. Both are good stories and interesting technology. SW relies a lot more heavily on the PEOPLE in the stories though, rather than the technology. You don't often find a SW story resolved through the use of "the oscillating Ku-band transmitter and a beam of neutron-dense anit-gravitons". I love both SW and ST....but if I had to choose between playing EliteForce and JKII, I'd take JKII.

[RoyalGuard]

The cloak is a side-effect of not being there, actually. The bit you pulled from the SW site about the phase-shifted crewmen still walking around the ship is obviously nitpicking. That he

wrote paragraphs about how gravity affects it only because of that is pretty weak, to put it nicely. It's a TV show, you know.

 

Um, you're aware of what Canon is right? It's on the TV show on the screen and so it's indisputable...

Phase cloaking shifts you out of phase with normal matter but on-screen evidence indicates that you are subjected to field-effects while cloaked. (for example a simple magnetic field would counter phased torpedoes as they use a Matter/Anti-matter warhead - with them being seperated until detonation by magnetic fields...) Or a ship could activate its repulsors and just push them away...

 

But that's all speculation...

 

 

 

Incidentally SW tech. isn't stale, new fighters, ships etc. are being designed all the time through both the EU and the films with more efficient shields/weapons etc.

 

Where exactly did Lucas say that and why should anyone believe it?

 

It's EU canon, Jedi Academy trilogy to be vaguely precise.

 

See 2. It's time to stop toying around.

 

The Imperial fleet outnumbers the UFP fleet by about 2-1 at least(using initial DS9 dominion war figures and an estimate by Lucas in the first novelisation of ANH) using ISD's alone. Plus support ships (about 6 capitals per SD plus fighters) that's more than enough fire power to annhiliate the UFP fleet and don't try and tell me they'll all have P-C torps, they don't even have enough quantums to go round...

[nova_wolf]

Okay - SW vs ST

 

SW is superior - there is far more to the universe. ST focuses on Star Fleet and one vesel or station, and it's experiences. Other groups are brought in, but I feel that they are not as well developed as those brought in to the SW universe. We have a more diverse array of characters, each with a history that is refered to often, used to help shape their future parts in the universe. From simply on running personnal jokes to all out conflicts of opinion over actions past, they is a greater sense of continuity, of flow.

 

Compare the SW trilogy to the ST movies, and tell me which one presnts the most well described enviroments, characters, events. The level of enviromental development, to the point of things pointless to the storyline, but great for the imagination.

 

Plus, the size of the struggle I think works heavily in SW favour. It is not simply flying round meeting various people because it's your job. There is a far bigger, galaxy enveloping storyline going on which affects the characters as much as they affect it. And the storylines can be deeper and darker because of it.

 

Self doubt leading to doubting others close to you (Luke and his Academy in the early stages for example), discussions of when does defense become offense, birth, life, death. The loss of characters is something SW is more prepared to deal with, so there is nolonger the definitive, and kind of annoying afetr a while, sense of invincability about the cast. Crix Madine, Anakin Solo, Jacen Solo (well, I have only read as far as Dark Journey, so REALLY wanna know yes or no on that one - but don't tell me...), Chewbacca, Gantoris...

 

As for the games, compare like with like for each one:

Force Commander with New Planets (trust me, it WAS worse than FC)

Rebellion/Supremecy with Aramada (Where WAS the storyline)

Dark Forces with Klingon Academy (Graphics are NOT everything)

XWA with Starfleet Academy or Invasion (Sorry, but Starfighter combat is superior to commanding lumbering hulks)

Most importantly, JK1/2 with Elite Force.

 

Infact, JK series may well be one of the BEST, if not THE best, FPS ever.

 

Why ? How many FPS can you name that made melee combat something worth striving to excel at. Something that did not smack of poor ammo management. Something that takes more skill that professional sniping. Something that provides you with some many options with just A weapon and movement controls. Somthing not confined to stealth situations.

 

THATS why !

 

I rest my saber.

 

[Amorpheus]

Originally posted by RoyalGuard

Um, you're aware of what Canon is right? It's on the TV show on the screen and so it's indisputable...

 

It's EU canon, Jedi Academy trilogy to be vaguely precise.

 

The Imperial fleet outnumbers the UFP fleet by about 2-1 at least(using initial DS9 dominion war figures and an estimate by Lucas in the first novelisation of ANH) using ISD's alone. Plus support ships (about 6 capitals per SD plus fighters) that's more than enough fire power to annhiliate the UFP fleet and don't try and tell me they'll all have P-C torps, they don't even have enough quantums to go round...

Of course. By that logic Ewoks with pointy sticks are superior to Stormtroopers and their technology - what does that say for a ST-SW comparison?

 

It's a TV show. Sometimes they compromise. Applying 100% canon there sounds pretty desperate to me. And aren't only the films and nothing but the films really canon in Star Wars?

 

Attack the fleet of one ST race with most of the ships of another universe? Hardly a fair match, eh?

[LooNBB]

Do you like My monkeys?

 

:monkey4: :monkey4:

[Jedi_Monk]

Of course. By that logic Ewoks with pointy sticks are superior to Stormtroopers and their technology - what does that say for a ST-SW comparison?

It says that the human (or alien) spirit is greater than technology.

 

What does SW have? Human spirit?

 

What does ST have? Technology?

 

Bye-bye, Trek!

 

2) Are you implying that SW technology is "stale"? ; p

2) It is pretty much, isn't it?

Let's see... in Episode I, we have an army of advanced droids (which alone could beat the crap out of the Borg), which don't stand a chance against the Jedi. For fighters, you have sleek corvettes with lasers, droid fighters (which are as easy to fake out as other battledroids) and a crontrol ship that takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin' (until someone gets beneath its shields and blows away its generator).

 

In Episode II, the droids are replaced with an army of cloned humans which are more resourceful and will turn out to be able to take out some Jedi. We have new, stronger and better droids, as well.

 

In ANH, we have the Death Star, the single biggest technological achievement ever. We have the Star Destroyer, enormous things, each bigger than the Droid Control ship, better armed and with an inaccessable generator. These things are almost inpossible to take down unless you have a planetary ion cannon.

 

In ESB, we see the Super Star Destroyer, twice as long as a Star Destroyer, better armed and armored and carrying more fighters. ONE of these took an entire fleet to take out. You also see the TIE Bomber for the first time.

 

In RotJ, we see that the Rebel's arsonal has grown as more planets joined in the fight against the Empire. Along with their fleet of antique X-Wings, Y-Wings and Snowspeeders, we now see the A-Wing (swift bombers) and the B-Wings (heavily-armored gunboats) and the Mon Calamari Cruisers, which have finally caught up to the Star Destroyer in power. We also see a second Death Star, even larger than the first and with better targetting computers, also they fixed the weakness. The only way the Rebels could destroy it was to get under the superstructure of the unfinished war machine and destroy it that way. If the Rebels hadn't struck when they did and been successful, they would have been wiped out.

 

In the Extended Universe, we see the World Devastators, the Galaxy Gun, the Sun Crusher and a seemingly endless parade of superweapons, each remarkable technological breakthroughs. Star Wars tech is not stale. But it has been around for quite some time. Startravel has been happening for well over 6000 years in the SW universe.

[obijonkenobi]

In RotJ, we see that the Rebel's arsonal has grown as more planets joined in the fight against the Empire. Along with their fleet of antique X-Wings, Y-Wings and Snowspeeders, we now see the A-Wing (swift bombers) and the B-Wings (heavily-armored gunboats) and the Mon Calamari Cruisers, which have finally caught up to the Star Destroyer in power. We also see a second Death Star, even larger than the first and with better targetting computers, also they fixed the weakness. The only way the Rebels could destroy it was to get under the superstructure of the unfinished war machine and destroy it that way. If the Rebels hadn't struck when they did and been successful, they would have been wiped out.

 

Just want to point out the A-Wing is a fighter only. The Alliances answer to the TIE Interceptor. It is purely a anti-fighter fighter really. The B-Wing is a bomber.

 

Sorry about nit picking You are right in how the SW Tech is not stale though.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Perhaps. Now take Elite Force, take out the Star Trek liscense, and phaser weapons. Now how good of a game is it?

 

Great maps and other great weapons.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi_Monk

It says that the human (or alien) spirit is greater than technology.

 

What does SW have? Human spirit?

 

What does ST have? Technology?

 

Star Trek is more about humans - The Federation - headquarters in San Francisco.

 

Star Wars is about, well, I dunno, the force with a bunch of aliens?

 

In Star Wars, humans aren't really involved as such - at least none from Earth.

[RoyalGuard]

Great maps and other great weapons.

 

Er, the maps were unimpressive, the weapons didn't show an innovation (though neither did the ones in JKO admittedly, save for the light sabre). In short if you already had Q3 and didn't care about the ST license it was a waste of money.

 

Do you like My monkeys?

 

Not as much as i liked them in Monkey Island

 

Star Wars tech is not stale.

 

Thankyou Jedi Monk

 

By that logic Ewoks with pointy sticks are superior to Stormtroopers and their technology - what does that say

 

That a forest dwelling race with stolen tech (chewie in an AT-ST practically won the entire battle) fighting on their own turf with prepared traps with the fanatical devotion of those who know their god is among them can just about defeat a surpised legion of elite soldiers. Nothing new there then.

 

It's a TV show. Sometimes they compromise. Applying 100% canon there sounds pretty desperate to me. And aren't only the films and nothing but the films really canon in Star Wars?

 

canon, a guide: what you see on the screen is indisputable canon - carved in stone if you will. What you read in licensed books is canon, unless it contradicts the films/TV shows, what you read in graphic novels is canon unless it contradicts the books or the films... and so on.

 

If you start making common sense assumptions along the lines of 'they only did that because of budget constraints etc.' then the debate is meaningless because it's just a matter of personal opinion...

 

ah, damn, cat's out of the bag now

 

Attack the fleet of one ST race with most of the ships of another universe? Hardly fair is it?

 

It's Empire vs. Federation, the Empire, not known for it's ethics, is hardly going to 'give them a fair chance' is it? So my original point is accurate, the UFP wouldn't stand a chance against the Empire...

[Rogerwilco2002]

Hey lets debate a subject in a web forum where it will be so biased that there is no way to keep it from being one sided.

 

If you deny that this argument isn't taking place in a biased atmosphere then quite simply you are a fool. Most of the comments made are so arrogant because of the fact that your opinions seem to be the only thing that matter. This argument would be much more warrented in something like a sci-fi forum where there isn't as much prejudice.

 

Quite frankly though, I don't care what YOU think of Star Trek because to me it is the best thing I have ever seen.

 

To me Star Trek is better than SW like so:

 

The Books are better

 

The Movies are better

 

The Series is awesome

 

The Characters are better

 

The Technology is cooler and more imaginative

 

The Universe is bigger

 

The humor is better

 

The chicks are hotter

 

 

You people have flamed your opinions of Star Trek all up and down this board so don't you even dare to flame MY OPINION.

 

I have listened to and respected your opinions even though they are the exact opposite of mine and TRIED to correct some of your ill-researched facts.

 

So now you respect mine.

[Mclarenlover69]

I only have two things to say:

 

1) I like them both equally well, seeming as how they aren't really comparable

 

2) You people can't spell worth sh*t...

[tempest8008]

Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002

You people have flamed your opinions of Star Trek all up and down this board so don't you even dare to flame MY OPINION.

 

I have listened to and respected your opinions even though they are the exact opposite of mine and TRIED to correct some of your ill-researched facts.

 

So now you respect mine.

 

Okay.

 

We respect your opinion. We just don't agree with it. But don't think we're not going to defend our OWN opinions...

 

As to yours:

Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002

The movies are better

 

Uh, hello? Anyone remember "The Final Frontier" ? Where they meet GOD? Ugh...the only movie I ever walked out on was "Congo", but that one came close. Highlander 2 was a close second (I'll still deny they made that one, they went straight on to #3)

 

 

Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002

The Technology is cooler and more imaginative

 

Right, I'll just fire up my digestive-index manipulator and charge it with super-dense anti-protonic gravitons. We can multiplex the deflector array with sheets of bi-aluminum ceramic polymer and that will destabilize the ionic covalent di-atomic bonds of the trilithium oxide that we're using as a catalyst. For some reason, this will restabilize the warp field so we can escape and finish the show in the next 5 minutes.

 

I'll concede, VERY imaginative. I'll just go suspend my disbelief with this crane over here....

 

Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002

The Universe is bigger

 

Technically that's true. Star Wars happened a long time ago, and if current theory is accurate the Universe IS expanding. If, however, you are referring to the volume of space that is played with, there are actually hundreds or thousands of planets involved. We only get to see a few because those are the ones the events revolve around. If you want proof of that, take a look at the scenes of the Galactic senate. There are races from EVERY species in the Galaxy there. There is no Alpha or Delta quadrant or any quadrant, the entire Galaxy is involved. AND, it's not even OUR Galaxy...

 

Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002

The chicks are hotter

 

Purile.

Infantile.

Sexist.

Stupid.

 

Offensive

Farfetched.

For a moment there, I got mad.

 

Nothing is hotter than Carrie Fisher in a metal bikini! Or Natalie Portman in her ceremonial dress at the end of Ep1!

 

But I digress. I will wholeheartedly support your assertion that this forum is biased. It's a LucasArts Forum, after all. Both series have their merits, but if you don't want people to criticize your opinions, don't publicize them.

[Amorpheus]

Originally posted by RoyalGuard

1) Er, the maps were unimpressive, the weapons didn't show an innovation (though neither did the ones in JKO admittedly, save for the light sabre).

 

2) canon, a guide: what you see on the screen is indisputable canon - carved in stone if you will.

 

3) It's Empire vs. Federation, the Empire, not known for it's ethics, is hardly going to 'give them a fair chance' is it? So my original point is accurate, the UFP wouldn't stand a chance against the Empire...

Originally posted by tempest8008

4) Uh, hello? Anyone remember "The Final Frontier" ? Where they meet GOD?

 

5) Nothing is hotter than Carrie Fisher in a metal bikini! Or Natalie Portman in her ceremonial dress at the end of Ep1!

1) In JO a lot the level design was downright asinine. In fact, it's the only game I know where the developers posted help to on a message board when it came out. And I've seen "Stuck in JK2!" topics on every board I visit.

 

2) Sure a fan of what, 5 movies, would say that. Star Wars doesn't have 400+ hours of screen time.

 

3) Last time I checked, this thread was titled Star Wars Versus Star Trek. Oh wait, it still is!

 

4) They thought so, too. Turned out to only be a powerful entity that's been trapped there for eons. What's the problem?

 

5) Matter of opinion... and nothing you should get upset over. Sheesh.