Assault3000 Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Being the one who started the project and begin recruiting would that not make me the project leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I've got an application submitted to Source Forge to host whatever game resources we end up creating. SF is a great thing to have because they give you a CVS account, a mailing list, and a homepage where you can maintain information about the technical details and other development related things. For an example of what I mean, check this out: http://blood.sourceforge.net/ Anyhow, if they agree/approve to host the project, we will have a mailing list that can be a primary method of communication among team members. Also don't forget there is an IRC channel registered on irc.gamesnet.net #jodfmod . . . I suggest everyone who expressed interest in contributing to the project go register on The Gaming Union's page so we can get that thing going. Too bad there isn't a GameSpy Planet site for JO - that would be an ideal way to get a lot of traffic to the site. anyhow . . . more later D_L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitchDrAsh Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 A couple of points to those involved in this: No response doesn't mean anything, it just may mean that lucasarts mail server lost it. DF is still their intellectual property and by recreating it 1:1 you are abusing this and they almost definitly will clamp down. Use of the DF textures is infact copyright violation, and therefore they will probably come after you. Use of the levels 1:1 is copyright violation e.t.c Use of the Dark Forces name is in violation of trade mark and they wont be happy. Anything new is fine, new models, custom built levels to represent DF levels are fine, as is user created textures. Don't use anything from the original DF directly and you should be fine. WDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assault3000 Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Originally posted by WitchDrAsh A couple of points to those involved in this: No response doesn't mean anything, it just may mean that lucasarts mail server lost it. DF is still their intellectual property and by recreating it 1:1 you are abusing this and they almost definitly will clamp down. Use of the DF textures is infact copyright violation, and therefore they will probably come after you. Use of the levels 1:1 is copyright violation e.t.c Use of the Dark Forces name is in violation of trade mark and they wont be happy. Anything new is fine, new models, custom built levels to represent DF levels are fine, as is user created textures. Don't use anything from the original DF directly and you should be fine. WDA Im not the only one who e-mailed them about this. It is not likely they could lose both in a server crash. It basicly means they dont care. Also like I said before they are making money off Jedi Outcast and not the original Dark Forces anymore. It really should not bother them at all. If they were not making money at all like the countless Alien mods that were shut down by fox because they were for non-fox games were because they were not making anything off the material. Lucasarts however gets money off JK II and Dark Forces is so old you cannot buy it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesTeg Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 @Assault3000: checking the homepage: http://www.lucasarts.com/companystore/darkforces/ you can still buy the game checking the manual: "Dark Forces" is a trademark of Lucasfilm Ltd.! Just mailing them doesn´t give us any rights. As long as we haven´t no "Yes, do what you want" etc. we can´t publish any levels including artwork or music of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_One Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Well, I say carry on until we get a "no". Until then we carry on creating everything we need. I'm already deep into working out details over at TGU, perseverance people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesTeg Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Don´t get me wrong. That are just the facts and I didn´t give up hope! I´m still on mapping the first level and give you more screens and infos later this day. btw: I need a texture for the deathstar holo you see near the plans.... If someohne could work out something I would be thankful I have no idea how to do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilock Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Let´s face it... Dark Forces is a very old game and if someone buys it...it dosen´t meen any less or more money for Lucas arts. Currently they get the money from Jedi Outcast. ...and a free mod of the old game Dark Forces for it would probably only increse the sells of JO...giving Lucas arts more money. They have more to win from it actually, as I see it. ...and If we would want to make the DF mod for Quake 3 I could understand if they would wanna shut us down. And in the special edition of JO you´ll get both Dark Forces and JK along with JO... and what you pay for is practicaly only JO. If Lucas arts is smart they would encurage us to make this mod If they are kind to us users...we WILL be encuraged to buy future products from them. (atleast I will...) There was a mod called Generations Quake 2 for...Q2... that was shut down by ID software becouse it used things from all of ID´s games. If we get a no from Raven and Lucas arts we can do as they did. Re-make the mod but with only similarites... that´s probably the only way we can go. Dark Troopers could be Dark Army...Army of Darkness... erm. I should sleep... ...and one more thing. If we can´t make stuff from DF...then people shoulden´t be able to make Dart Vader models...Boba Fett models...(both was in Dark Forces, by the way.) or stuff from Episode 2 e.t.c ...Lucas arts probably wanna do games of Episode 2...so the Episade 2 project is more of a copyright breach issue then with a Dark Forces mod... Let´s face it... Dark Forces = A game that has been made and that has been sold alot...and probably won´t sell wery well today. Episode 2 = A movie that Lucas arts wanna make games from. ...and probably will sell alot today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzar Sectus Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Ok, let me rephrase my response so I am more clear. Back in the old days <g> when most sound cards only did FM midi, there were a few cards that did it better than most by using WaveTable - SoundScape, GS, and some others. Older DOS games actually set things up different for the different sound cards and many games used different MIDI files formats depending on which card the person had (System Shock for one). So in that sense you are correct . . . You misunderstood my answer here. My original point was that no card have complete support for the MT-32, if you don't believe me about that, try searching around on Google to find out more about it. So if you're going to record music from a game which was designed for that card, you would have no choice than to record it with that card. Any other card, would either sound inferior or completely wrong. And by the way, that you said about older DOS games having setups for different cards, that's right, but those setups were mere drivers. Not competely different midi files. LucasArts had to rework all their midi files for the GM standard or else only the MT-32 would get correct sound in their games. While most other games at that time only had to use different drivers since their midi music was already designed for the standard. So, I guess we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about the general midi standard used in most games, where, yes, the music would sound better on a new midi card. While I were talking about one specific midi card which synthesized it's sounds in a unique way, for which a good deal of games were designed for. So please do remember that all MIDI music isn't designed for one standard. I think in the old days it was presumed the music would sound like crap no matter what . . . Do you sincerely believe all the developers in the old times assumed their music would be crap? That's completely wrong. There's communities made just for this music. A respected musician, Michael Land, believes his theme for Monkey Island is the best single piece of music he's ever written. I really doubt he thought at the time it sounded like crap. Ask any developer, or musician, which made games around that time, you'll find that you're completely wrong. -Remi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crack 6K Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 The Generations mod for Q2 WAS shut down, however, the Generations for Q3 was NOT. I don't know how they did it, but if we stick to avoiding copyrighted material, we should be fine. Recreating levels shouldn't be an infringement at all. There are many, many remakes of popular levels from older games into newer games, and a DF -> JO transition shouldn't be a problem. The problem comes with using existing DF textures like the ones Darth_Linux provided, and using the original midi files. For now I will not use the original DF textures for the maps, but once Lucasarts gives the green light, then I can start fitiing the old textures in places where they belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assault3000 Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Like Devilock says Lucasarts should encourage this project. Its not just about work its about having fun while developing the mod, who knows we might even add in multi-player. But overall this project would not hurt Lucasarts, in fact I've been thinking about making some sort of ad like in the main menu background encouraging people to buy the original Dark Forces as well to see the original exellently done cartoon cutscenes and such. This project won't hurt Lucasarts at all it will only help Jedi Outcast sell, and a lot of $50 sales is worth more than a couple $15 sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 News from Source Forge: Your project registration for SourceForge has been approved. Project Full Name: Dark Forces MOD for Jedi Outcast Project Unix Name: jodfmod CVS Server: cvs.jodfmod.sourceforge.net Shell/Web Server: jodfmod.sourceforge.net Your DNS will take up to a day to become active on our site. While waiting for your DNS to resolve, you may try shelling into shell.sourceforge.net and pointing CVS to cvs.sourceforge.net. I'll get the mailing list going and tell everyone how to subscribe, as well as get some of the administrative things taken care of the SF requires when they host a project. Darth Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesTeg Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Here comes a short overview of the current status: Most of the level is done! The Architecture for the main base and most of the outer stonewalls are done. Opening doors with a switch (+ use-button, +sound) works. Kyle starts with a bryar pistol and the stun baton and the music plays. The sky has the moving clouds of bespin My to do list: two big lifts building eastern secret base lights/lamps finding better textures interior design more aggressive enemyscripts reediting of some brushes gettin this damn "key->open door" thing to work .... Question: Should the normal doors open DarkForces style (step close to them, use-button to open them) or like they react in JO (open like before you reach them)? The JO style is more comfortable and my current setting. some screenshots (game bsp´ed without vis/light): http://www.mordor.ch/baburin/jedi/1.jpg http://www.mordor.ch/baburin/jedi/2.jpg http://www.mordor.ch/baburin/jedi/3.jpg http://www.mordor.ch/baburin/jedi/4.jpg http://www.mordor.ch/baburin/jedi/5.jpg I have also found the origial texture of the wall and I´ll take a screenshot of the base using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Remi, I really didn't intend for this thread to go on like this, but you misunderstand what I'm saying in so many ways that I hope you'll permit me to clarify myself one more time . . . Originally posted by Tzar Sectus You misunderstood my answer here. My original point was that no card have complete support for the MT-32, if you don't believe me about that, try searching around on Google to find out more about it. So if you're going to record music from a game which was designed for that card, you would have no choice than to record it with that card. Any other card, would either sound inferior or completely wrong. That's fine - I've never heard of a MT32, but I'm sure it's one of many proprietary sound cards that exist(ed) on the market. In the early 90's different sound cards used different MIDI implementations (before the GM standard was agreed upon) and if you play a GM sequence on a non-GM card, the instruments won't map correctly and so on, just like you said. We are in complete agreement on this point . . . And by the way, that you said about older DOS games having setups for different cards, that's right, but those setups were mere drivers. Not competely different midi files. Not so. System Shock includes 2 versions of each MIDI song - one for GM compatible cards and one for GS compatible cards, which use different instrument mappings. Not many game developers went to this trouble to make different versions for the different MIDI standards, but Looking Glass did for at least this particular game. LucasArts had to rework all their midi files for the GM standard or else only the MT-32 would get correct sound in their games. right - because GM maps instruments a certain way, and the MT32 maps them another way (I'm assuming). While most other games at that time only had to use different drivers since their midi music was already designed for the standard. So, I guess we're talking about two different things here. You're talking about the general midi standard used in most games, where, yes, the music would sound better on a new midi card. While I were talking about one specific midi card which synthesized it's sounds in a unique way, for which a good deal of games were designed for. So please do remember that all MIDI music isn't designed for one standard. Yes yes yes. Before the GM standard was the standard, things were a mess with different mappings for different synths and the need to design with a particular card/synth in mind was essential. Thankfully those days are no longer so . . . Do you sincerely believe all the developers in the old times assumed their music would be crap? That's completely wrong. I never said that. I said that while composing a song, using the synth of your choice where everything sounds like you want it to, the composer was certainly aware that when Joe Schmoe loaded up the game with this song in it and played it on their ESS 688 soundcard with FM synthesis, the song was gonna sound like crap. There's communities made just for this music. A respected musician, Michael Land, believes his theme for Monkey Island is the best single piece of music he's ever written. I really doubt he thought at the time it sounded like crap. Ask any developer, or musician, which made games around that time, you'll find that you're completely wrong. I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but for the record, I *AM* a musician and I've been doing MIDI sequencing professionaly for studio work, live performances and personal interest for some 10 years now. I happen to love video game music and I'm intimately familiar with the entire process of sequencing, composing and rendering to wave format and I know this for sure: a MIDI song only sounds as good as the hardware it's played back on, so if Michael's theme to Monkey Island is played back on a good synth or sound card, it will sound good. And if it's played back on a Commodore 64 it's gonna sound like crap. That doesn't have anything to do with how good the song is, just the way song sounds . . . OK I hope we can let this MIDI subject die because there isn't much more to say about it. D_L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Okay, anyone interested in the project should subscribe to the Jedi Outcast -> Dark Forces MOD Mailing list. To join the mailing list, click here: http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jodfmod-devel/ To view the mailing list archives, click here: http://www.geocrawler.com/redir-sf.php3?list=jodfmod-devel To view the project data page, click here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/jodfmod/ To view the project home page, click here (nothing there yet): https://jodfmod.sourceforge.net/ Over the next few days I'll work with HeavyPear to get a simple page put up for that last link. It doesn't have to be fancy since it isn't really the homepage for the project, but just a portal to the CVS archives and project information. Darth Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assault3000 Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Alright guys I need your opinion. Are we going to use the original Dark Forces voice files or re-enact them? Btw I am getting the mod it's own message board for the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Assault3000 Alright guys I need your opinion. Are we going to use the original Dark Forces voice files or re-enact them? Btw I am getting the mod it's own message board for the site. I think if we are going to play it safe, we should redo them. Do you have a "script" so to speak of all the vocalizations in the whole game? If we want to run on the risky side, then we just use the original wave files wherever a suitable replacement doesn't already exist in the JO assets list. Also, pardon my ignorance, but how we would implement these custom sounds? Would we have to name our sounds to the same filename as sounds we want to replace, or would we modify the game code to point to the new sounds or what? Darth Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Assault3000 Btw I am getting the mod it's own message board for the site. Have you seen what HeavyPear has thrown together and offered? No need to duplicate efforts if something is already been taken care of . . . D_L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Toddy Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I know it may be more work, but instead of using original music/textures from DF, why not create your own from scratch? I'm sure you could re-create the music from DF with a much more realistic orchestral feeling using more modern synth tools than what were used back then, and you can probably create new textures from scracth that are similar to the DF textures, but look a lot better. Why not make a DF mod that, instead of being a conversion, takes full advantage of what the Q3 engine has to offer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assault3000 Posted April 25, 2002 Author Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Darth_Linux Have you seen what HeavyPear has thrown together and offered? No need to duplicate efforts if something is already been taken care of . . . D_L Yeah well I made one anyways. http://pub34.ezboard.com/bdarkforcesforjedioutcast I will fix it up later but this is one of the best message board sites so I registered one there. I'll get on writing the scripts for the voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesTeg Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by Darth_Linux Also, pardon my ignorance, but how we would implement these custom sounds? Would we have to name our sounds to the same filename as sounds we want to replace, or would we modify the game code to point to the new sounds or what? Darth Linux Everything is linked directly in the map. You just have to copy the file into a .pk3 - thats it (must be mp3 of course). It´s like changing textures etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Linux Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by MilesTeg Don´t get me wrong. That are just the facts and I didn´t give up hope! I´m still on mapping the first level and give you more screens and infos later this day. btw: I need a texture for the deathstar holo you see near the plans.... If someohne could work out something I would be thankful I have no idea how to do this We should use an md3 model for this type of thing . . . D_L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilock Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Originally posted by MilesTeg Question: Should the normal doors open DarkForces style (step close to them, use-button to open them) or like they react in JO (open like before you reach them)? The JO style is more comfortable and my current setting. I would say both... Doors that are opend with a console or button...must be pushed Doors that are opend by pressing on them...opens by closing in on them. Secret doors or walls that needs pressing...must be pressed. ...and about the textures...I think we should recreate most or all textures along with new ones aswell... ...aswell as all the maps should be re-created more advanced. Send some of the textures to me at devilock@planetavp.com and I can start re-make them. ...I´ve also started with the Phase 1 Dark Trooper model. I´ll post a pic when I´ve done a little more on it...only a leg right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinity Blade Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 I've got a good base for the kyle skin now. The design is done (except boots), and the skin is off to a great start. The Base of the coat is almost finished (Wrinkles.. color.. shape), however the back wrinkles and one on the arm needs to be tweaked. ALOT of details have yet to be added, and I also should have one of the modellers alter an existing model. I'll have what I need more in depth soon, but basically I'll need a model altered to include a larger collar area, as well as a "lapel" type raised area for the jacket. The pants are practically done, and everything else just has a basic "filler" texture till I'm ready to work on it. I have a picture to post, but I'd like to refrain posting progress pics at JK2.net . We should decide soon on how/what exactly we'll do for updates and such. Catch ya later. Blade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 PS: Fists are already in the game (accessible via this cheat): bind x give weaponnum 14 bind y weapon 14 hit x, then y, and you have fists. Of course you'll need to skin in Kyle's trademark gloves. ; ) The Repeater is also different (single stream of shots, or triple slower shots). New models for that weapon, though you could leave the ST Rifle, thermal detonators and bryar as they are. It's a real shame that the SP SDK might not see the light of day. Perhaps what you guys could do instead is create a sort of coop type objective based mission (kind of like Assault in UT). Needless to say it would be incredibly awesome to have Jan and Kyle fighting side by side in the original. And since it's not going to be a shot for shot conversion, but a RE-CREATION then it shouldn't be a problem if it's not exact (but maybe better in this caes!). The cutscenes might be a problem, but who knows.... This way might be even closer to the original, because since it's MP, you can't save, just like pc game! You could even setup limited lives (although that might be a bit frustrating, heh). And you could always play it by yourself. The way Serious Sam does it, the person who wins first or triggers the cutscene gets to see it, everybody else just stands around until the next level appears. It kind of sucks, but it might work that way, rather than trying to figure out how to stream the cutscenes to everyone. But it's client-side anyway, and by yourself it would work out fine. Personally I've always hated automatic doors in FPS games. I like to be able to hide in front of a closed door to ambush the person who tries to come in, or use it for cover or a booby trap. Impossible if the door opens when you're two feet away. Auto switches aren't as bad, but still annoying, if you bump into them accidentally. For that SP feel, throwable switches is a must! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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