Heavy Stance Complainers - Great news from DEV!!! Woot!!!

[CupO'Coffee]

the people that play the games have changed, just as the games did.

when cs came out, just played it to play it, but nowadays many people just play it to say how crappy it is and that "their" game is waaaay better...

more people have nowadays access to broadband connections such as DSL, or at last ISDN which increased the number of the players that play just occasionally has increased as well, also increasing the number of "whiners"

 

just my two cents though.... (and OT too!)

[Solo4114]

Well, I for one am glad to know that 1.) there's a patch in the making, and 2.) they're tweaking heavy stance. I hope they're also tweaking other things to add to game balance. NewB, any word from Kenn on the block/parry idea? Falkentyne and I were talking about this for a while, and I think it'd really add some complexity and depth to sabre fights if it was included. Also, any word on collision/hit detection/blocking? To my way of thinking, those three things (heavy stance, no real blocking, and collision detection) are what holds this game back for the time being.

 

I'll admit, up until this post, I'd kind of given up hope on JKII's multiplayer component ever really being that much fun for me. Now that there's a patch in the works, well, I won't be selling off my copy of the game just yet.

 

Now, for all you whiners out there who whine about whiners, here's a little cheese for you before you start pouring more whine. Personally, I hope that these tweaks and such are added as an ADDITIONAL mode of gameplay. All the various issues, such as the guns vs. force, the force imbalance, the red-stance-is-too-powerful, the make-mp-like-sp stuff, all of that, should be something that is optional for servers. This way, all you whiners who love to call OTHER people whiners won't have to actually whine about anything. You can just go play JKII the way you want, while the rest of us play the way we want. Everyone walks away happy. Anyway, that's my hope for what happens with this patch. But hey, if it works out for my side of the argument, and not for yours, I won't lose too much sleep.

[bellenberger]

If they are going to "balance" the heavy stance, they should also balance the guns alot more. I'm tired of being spammed by rocket launchers and especially that stupid unblockable electro-gun thing. It sucks when you are having a battle and some gunslinger comes along with an area effect weapon and kills 5 people at the same time. This ESPECIALLY sucks considering the fact that pulling the weapon out of their hand is so much harder than JK1. The only hope was getting close enought and doing a one-hit kill. Now if they "tone down" heavy stance that will be alot harder.

 

I would really like to see pulling guns alot easier and a choice that if you use guns you cannot use the force. Jedis don't use guns.

 

Brian Ellenberger

[Kyuss]

Does no one understand the concept of heavy stance? I'm not defending it or arguing with people who hate it... I am just saying that if you:

 

.1

Make it faster

 

.2

Make it weaker

 

.3

Take away some of its range

 

then it would no longer be a "HEAVY" stance. The key word here is HEAVY... not light or medium, but heavy... hence the name "Heavy Stance".

[Desslock]

What was your suggestion NewB? Heh...

[Jedi-TalonClaw]

NewBJedi,

 

Can you write the DEVs and ask them about the grip and hold above the head cheese move? The person gripped has no counter. Push and throw doesn't work.

 

They need to limit how far up you can raise someone when you grip them.

[NewBJedi]

My suggestion was:

 

Heavy Stance Scoring

 

Since one of the biggest complaints about heavy stance is that they can just simply swing and rack up the points, how about this:

 

A person who kills with a light stance gets twice the points as a medium, and medium twice the points as a heavy.

 

Basically a light stance person gets 4 times the points as a heavy stance person - so that person is rewarded for having to use skill.

 

Also, it doesn't seem possible to duel in CTF, Team DM, and other modes. It'd be neat if that could be possible - server side option. Often I run into the same guy over and over and a good duel would get our frustrations. =)

 

Thanks!

[D'akt Sangwar]

Originally posted by NK_Zephorath

Heavy stance doesn't need tweaking. Lunge whores are a problem, but what about people who are actually skilled in using heavy? Mind you I can still kick it with medium, but why should other people be forced to learn a new style because you don't like it?

 

its not the fact we dont like it (which we dont) its the fact that it is totally unbalanced

[Reverse]

thx for the update newb, dont let the flamers get to you, there will always be people like that, anyone remember the old VBB, now that place was awful

[Faucon]

Quick question Why did people in jk hate grip so much but now its ok to use it?

 

This is mainly do to the fact that in JK there where only a few ways to break grips hold... force jump or damage the gripper. Even when using absorb you would still be held in place and the gripper could easily kill you. Now you can't attack when you are gripping someone and absorb, push actually work... though damaging the gripper doesn't you actually have to kill them.

 

As to saber style balancing only thing I see wrong with dfa is it kills teammates in ctf... well any heavy stance can do that but dfa sends them rocketing in the air. Since I rarely do duals or saber only servers when someone starts to spam dfa I just go after someone else. If a whole team is spaming it, it is time to find another server.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw

NewBJedi,

 

Can you write the DEVs and ask them about the grip and hold above the head cheese move? The person gripped has no counter. Push and throw doesn't work.

 

They need to limit how far up you can raise someone when you grip them.

 

Drain will lower that ability.

 

You should be force pushing or pulling them before it gets to the point where they can raise you off the ground (it doesn't happen right away) - or even saber throw at them for awhile.

 

Unless you are low in health and shields, a force grip, even when fully implemented won't kill you. You can still come back and get them or go for more health.

 

Sorry, I see too many ways to counter-act that. But you can feel free to write them about it if you wish.

[Jedi-TalonClaw]

If you are playing a light jedi you have no drain.

 

Vs a gripper you are doomed if he drains you and then grabs you and lifts you over his head and then saber tosses you when you are coming down.

 

You can not saber toss down or push down. There is no counter.

 

It is cheese just like many think heavy stance is cheeze. But you can roll to counter the heavy stance 1 jump kill but a light jedi gripped and raised up will be killed on the way down.

[Master Rooster]

I'm not sure I agree with your scoring idea NewbJedi - surely it's just asking for people to cripple enemies with heavy and then finish them off with light to get the extra points.

 

Not that I have any cunning ways of balancing things myself, so I shouldn't really complain.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw

If you are playing a light jedi you have no drain.

 

Vs a gripper you are doomed if he drains you and then grabs you and lifts you over his head and then saber tosses you when you are coming down.

 

You can not saber toss down or push down. There is no counter.

 

It is cheese just like many think heavy stance is cheeze. But you can roll to counter the heavy stance 1 jump kill but a light jedi gripped and raised up will be killed on the way down.

 

There's always a point in a battle where it's too late to save yourself.

 

For that matter.. a person can grip you over a ledge and your life is in his hands. If he lets go or the grip is over, you are dead either way. Should that be removed too?

 

When a person gets you to the point you are choking, your best move is to move very fast as soon as he lets go, or force push him out of the way - which isn't too difficult.

 

Anyhow, that's my opinion - that if you let him get to the point of choking you, you aren't managing your neutral or light force powers well enough. If you die from the choke, than you aren't managing your health well enough.

 

There's a point where you have to take some responsibility for dying at the hands of another.

 

Also, being that I enjoy playing a Sith, I'm biased.

 

I often force drain people, kick them around, and choke them to death or make them linger off ledges while I smile at their torment.

 

[Jedi-TalonClaw]

Yeah so you are biased and not interested in balance. You've lost my faith in you.

 

The guy who drained, gripped us and raised us up did it immediately. There was no time to counter it.

 

Yeah ok the grip over a chasm is cool and you can choose to play duels on maps where they cant do that. But you can't counter the overhead grip and it needs to be tweaked.

 

Otherwise I could say I'm biased and the heavy stance is fine the way it is. Who cares about balance if it gives my play style an edge. You see what I am saying. Balance is balance. Not bias.

 

 

 

Originally posted by NewBJedi

 

There's always a point in a battle where it's too late to save yourself.

 

For that matter.. a person can grip you over a ledge and your life is in his hands. If he lets go or the grip is over, you are dead either way. Should that be removed too?

 

When a person gets you to the point you are choking, your best move is to move very fast as soon as he lets go, or force push him out of the way - which isn't too difficult.

 

Anyhow, that's my opinion - that if you let him get to the point of choking you, you aren't managing your neutral or light force powers well enough. If you die from the choke, than you aren't managing your health well enough.

 

There's a point where you have to take some responsibility for dying at the hands of another.

 

Also, being that I enjoy playing a Sith, I'm biased.

 

I often force drain people, kick them around, and choke them to death or make them linger off ledges while I smile at their torment.

 

[Solo4114]

I don't have as much of a problem with the darkside powers as it seems a lot of people do, but I do think that absorb needs to be beefed up to counter it. Currently, walking around with a blue glow is just a dead giveaway to anyone who plays darkside not to use force powers on you. The way I see it, there are a couple of options for balancing absorb.

 

1.) Make it so that absorb doesn't have the blue glow. That way no one knows if you have it turned on or not. This is not much of a real solution, though, since it'd probably just lead to a lot of darksiders simply not using force powers much, which would lead to them getting pissed and not playing the game. Potentially, anyway.

 

2.) Make absorb a "passive" force power like blocking. This could work two ways. (1) the reaction speed is directly related to what level you have it at. IE: someone with level 1 automatically turns on absorb slower than someone with level 2 or 3. or (2) it turns on at the same speed, but loses force power faster at lower levels, and loses force power constantly when being used. IE: a person comes up to you and drains you, you have absorb at level two. It'll basically only delay the effects of the drain. So basically, if you start out with less mana than the other guy, if he drains you, you'll be able to last longer and leave him with less mana than if you didn't have anything assigned to absorb, but at the end of the drain, he'd still have mana left, and you wouldn't. At level 2, this effect would be reduced, and at level 3, if drained by a level three darksider, you'd end up with barely more mana than he'd have. So, you'd maybe have enough for one force jump, or a short sabre throw, or maybe a weak push.

 

3.) Nerf drain. I don't personally like the idea of this but it prevents people from just draining, gripping, and dropping the other person. Frankly, I like beefing up absorb rather than nerfing drain, because of the underlying message that it sends. Nerfing drain kind of sends the message that people who pick darkside are being punished for just playing the game. I don't think that's right. I mean, yeah, the darkside's evil, but we shouldn't necessarily punish one side of the force. Rather, putting lightside users on level ground might work a bit better, because it's sort of like saying, "Oh yeah, we did kind of screw you over. sorry about that." Instead of saying, "BAD DARKSIDER!! NO DRAIN FOR YOU!!"

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw

Yeah so you are biased and not interested in balance. You've lost my faith in you.

 

I don't see why you would have 'faith in me' in the first place. Why would you need faith in me at all? Do you always lose this 'faith' in people over a simple disagreement?

 

Balance is always a question of opinion. I have rarely been drain/gripped to death myself, but I know how to avoid it. If someone drains me I keep my distance until my force is restored, or I charge them with a lot of kicks and rolls and go in for the kill.

 

It's very difficult for a person to get a 'grip' on you when you are always moving and forcing him/her on the defensive.

 

The whole Heavy Stance balance issue already exists in my opinion - there are ways to avoid it and it's challenging. I merely started this topic to show people who want 'more balance' (their opinion of it) that it will exist in the next patch.

 

The guy who drained, gripped us and raised us up did it immediately. There was no time to counter it.

 

See above and .. if you use force absorb at the right time, I believe drain will have zero effect. Once you know a person uses the drain/grip method, you can avoid that with proper use of absorb, force push/pull, kick, saber, etc.

 

Yeah ok the grip over a chasm is cool and you can choose to play duels on maps where they cant do that. But you can't counter the overhead grip and it needs to be tweaked.

 

Again, see above.

 

Otherwise I could say I'm biased and the heavy stance is fine the way it is. Who cares about balance if it gives my play style an edge. You see what I am saying. Balance is balance. Not bias.

 

Yep, balance is balance - a great lesson in tautology.

 

Otherwise, if you make yourself vulnerable due to force mismanagement or bad strategic moves on your part, that's not a balance issue, it's a personal problem.

 

You haven't offered a solution to the grip overhead situation, you've only complained about it.

[Tree]

HAHAHA suck it strong stance whores.

 

FINALLY A BALANCED GAME

 

 

WOOOO HOOOO

[Jedi-TalonClaw]

You didn't read my first post where I do offer a solution to the grip problem. Limit how high you can raise someone with grip so that they can still use force push. Don't let them raise you directly over their head. That's not changing grip that much. Just taking away the cheese.

 

You offered yourself up as someone who was interested in balance and someone who communicates with the DEVs. Now you say you are biased. That's why I now have a lack of faith in you. Do you not see the value in a balanced game?

 

Originally posted by NewBJedi

 

I don't see why you would have 'faith in me' in the first place. Why would you need faith in me at all? Do you always lose this 'faith' in people over a simple disagreement?

 

Balance is always a question of opinion. I have rarely been drain/gripped to death myself, but I know how to avoid it. If someone drains me I keep my distance until my force is restored, or I charge them with a lot of kicks and rolls and go in for the kill.

 

It's very difficult for a person to get a 'grip' on you when you are always moving and forcing him/her on the defensive.

 

The whole Heavy Stance balance issue already exists in my opinion - there are ways to avoid it and it's challenging. I merely started this topic to show people who want 'more balance' (their opinion of it) that it will exist in the next patch.

 

 

 

See above and .. if you use force absorb at the right time, I believe drain will have zero effect. Once you know a person uses the drain/grip method, you can avoid that with proper use of absorb, force push/pull, kick, saber, etc.

 

 

 

Again, see above.

 

 

 

Yep, balance is balance - a great lesson in tautology.

 

Otherwise, if you make yourself vulnerable due to force mismanagement or bad strategic moves on your part, that's not a balance issue, it's a personal problem.

 

You haven't offered a solution to the grip overhead situation, you've only complained about it.

[Kurgan]

The way I see it, they're the developers and they can do what they want with their product.

 

While I myself didn't have a problem with the Strong stance as is, I can accept their decision if they do indeed patch it as they seem to be doing.

 

At least they aren't doing what some extremists are calling for, which is to remove guns or force gun users to be forceless or slow down movement speed for gunners. Those kinds of things would totally ruin the game, period.

 

reducing the speed or damage or whatever they plan to do with one lightsaber stance would be fine. There's no need for flames either way. I'm sure if they want to keep something, no amount of begging and whining from the fans will cause them to change it. After all, I'm sure the number of people buying the game who don't complain is infinitely higher than the ones who buy and nitpick.

[Kyuss]

Originally posted by D'akt Sangwar

its not the fact we dont like it (which we dont) its the fact that it is totally unbalanced

 

I notice that everyone is saying that it is "unbalanced". No it isn't... you have the ability to block it. Heavy stance is stronger and knocks down the light stance... so when you see someone using it, you have the "ability" to change your stance so it isn't easily knocked down.

 

The only way you can call it "unbalanced" is if this were a class based game and one class couldn't "use" it. Lets say it was classed as only the dark force users could use the Heavy Stance... then I can see how you could call it unbalanced because the light force users wouldn't have a stance to block it. However the game isn't that way and everyone is allowed the ability to switch to the heavy stance.

 

I do not use it all the time, but when I encounter someone that is... I switch to that stance. It is as simple as that! I can't blame the game or the developers when I choose a "known" weakness to the stong stance and get killed.

[Echomancer]

Well, this change sounds fairly disappointing to me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the heavy stance as it is, it serves the purpose it's supposed to. Anyone who uses it intelligently and with skill is just as hard/easy to beat as someone who uses another stance, the tactics just change. Anyone who doesn't know what they're doing and spams a move or a swing all over the place will get the occaisional lucky kill but is, 9 times out of 10, much easier to kill than someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing.

 

As far as I'm concerned the game is balanced. But I've played a hell of a lot of poorly-balanced games in my life so maybe it's a biased opinion of what balance is. I do feel, however, that any reduction in the damage dealt by the heavy stance will severely unbalance force heal. Slowing it down would also throw it off balance... there's a ton of down time between slashes on which you can capitalize if you're fighting a heavy stance user.

 

But it's not my choice whether this game changes or not.

[Jedi-TalonClaw]

Yes we are the minority. Way more people play single player and never get on the Internet.

 

Originally posted by Kurgan

I'm sure the number of people buying the game who don't complain is infinitely higher than the ones who buy and nitpick.

[S!TH!NAT0R]

Ok, here's the deal. It doe'snt matter how much they yweak or add with the patch. Who knows, Raven could end up fixing 90% of all the things we have been griping about the past month. -One fact remains, there will still be all the kiddie whiners and flamers here at the JK2 forum. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a few of you here that are very cool abd act yur age. But also, I notice way too much kiddie flaming and bickering. Way too many smart-ass children here without any supervision from thier mommy and/or daddy! -Anyway, my point being.........no matter what Raven fixes/adds w/ the patch, peeps will just complain about a new list of gripes after it's released! -All these lamers will nitpick at the patch and there will be 50 instant whining/griping threads the 1st damn day. Hell, only one tidbit of official info regarding the tweaking of the heavy-stance and there are already numerous whining going on on how thats unfair:rolleyes: First mostly everyone here gripes and b!tches about heavy-stance being too much and now that we have official word that it may be fixed w/ the patch and now you peeps are b!tching about that!! -Get a life you freakin' kiddies!

--If Raven dev ended up curing all the MP issues w/ JK2 with the patch release there would still be 30-40 threads with nothing but whining and b!tching about how the patch sucks. Grow up people and for all the kiddies here.......go find yourselves a gaming junior-forum! ----There's my rant! -I'm so disgusted with how most of the members act here at the JK2 forum. It's a real embarressment to the Veteren JK1 community and to the 'sensible' members of the JK2 community as well. Just plain sad all the flaming and bickering that goes on here.

--Anyway, ...just my .02. -I'm gone, ~S!TH

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw

You didn't read my first post where I do offer a solution to the grip problem. Limit how high you can raise someone with grip so that they can still use force push. Don't let them raise you directly over their head. That's not changing grip that much. Just taking away the cheese.

 

I didn't notice that solution, my apologies.

 

You solution involves nerfing grip. That changes the potential of grip quite a bit - it can never be used to move a person around in that sense or ever used to actually kill someone.

 

How about letting them raise you that high but you can still force push yourself out of it? I don't like that idea either - I'd rather see forces used intelligently, not automatically.

 

So you want balance?

 

How about this:

 

If someone force pushes you off a ledge, you can shoot out a grapple hook and come back.

 

If someone force drains you, you can put up a shield that will bounce it back.

 

If someone uses force lightening, you can shoot a water sprinkler that will cause them to be electrocuted.

 

If someone force kicks you, you can pull out a bean bag that bounces them back.

 

Yah, let's put all these things in for balance!

 

Let's completely remove any strategy and player responsibility and cause it to be all self-automated defenses.

 

How much balance do you want?

 

You offered yourself up as someone who was interested in balance and someone who communicates with the DEVs. Now you say you are biased. That's why I now have a lack of faith in you. Do you not see the value in a balanced game?

 

As for reading posts.

 

First, read the title of this thread - does you see balance mentioned?

 

Read, the message I posted, in this thread, starting with:

 

"My suggestion was:" ...

 

Also, I have mentioned about what I think is unbalanced about the Heavy Stance, but I believe the major problem isn't the balance itself, but the scoring system. That's just my opinion.

 

But see, I disagree with you about grip being unbalanced and therefore everything I will ever say is futile and pointless - because of that 'one' issue.

 

1. I really don't care what you feel about me.

 

2. People will disagree with you in life, good luck.