Heavy Stance Complainers - Great news from DEV!!! Woot!!!

[NewBJedi]

How are you certain the patch will end up that way?

 

Did you consult Madame Cleo or Sylvia Browne?

 

Edit: Just realized Vestril said the same thing.

 

 

Also, click here:

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49752

[mIRC]

You fail to understand what most of these people are actually whining about.

 

The heavy stance special move is easily dodged. Are you guys aware of strafing? Are you guys aware that you can literally get the persons saber stuck in the ground for a good 10 seconds after the move?

 

I'm doubting you guys have any skill except for a bumrush of drunken swings.

 

Also, very, very, very few people will not update. Then you take out those very, very, few and subtract the people who don't host a server(s).

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by mIRC

You fail to understand what most of these people are actually whining about.

 

I think we fail to understand what *you* are whining about.

 

Because, *you* don't understand what the patch will do.

 

If you read the entire thread you would have saw this - Raven dev has been writing to this person:

 

"Rogue74

Pit Droid

Registered: Apr 2002

Location:

Posts: 58

 

"Ok, well if anyone objects it's NewBJedi's fault

 

First email:

 

"Perhaps "tweaked heavily" was an overstatement. There were some errors with the radius damage, etc. the attack did that were adjusted. We're not fundamentally changing it...just fixing some things we missed in the original incarnation."

 

Second:

 

"No problem. The message I wanted to convey was that we're aware of the problem and trying to fix it. I didn't want to make it sound like we were cutting the legs out from under it, so to speak. "

[mIRC]

Read it again. I'm talking about what people are whining about except in the very lest sentence.

[NewBJedi]

Why does it matter what people are whining about?

 

Dev is only fixing technical problems with heavy stance, not changing its basic function.

[NewBJedi]

Originally posted by Rogue74

Ok, well if anyone objects it's NewBJedi's fault

 

First email:

 

"Perhaps "tweaked heavily" was an overstatement. There were some errors with the radius damage, etc. the attack did that were adjusted. We're not fundamentally changing it...just fixing some things we missed in the original incarnation."

 

Second:

 

"No problem. The message I wanted to convey was that we're aware of the problem and trying to fix it. I didn't want to make it sound like we were cutting the legs out from under it, so to speak. ;)"

 

...

[mIRC]

THIS IS ONLY ABOUT YOUR FIRST SENTENCE IN YOUR LAST POST.

 

 

You're being a retard.

 

In previous posts you seemed to be agreeing with other people's whines/gripes but now when someone opposes it the whines don't matter? Give me a break.

[NewBJedi]

Personal attack noted.

 

Conversation over.

[Vestril]

mIRC...thank you for assuming that I suck...search for Vestril if you're ever interested in Dueling, I duel on NF servers and I have little trouble dispatching Heavy users, and I have had a number of instances where I was no where near someones saber and they managed to hit me.

 

Early on to managed to walk onto some DFA's that should have been buried, but since I've learned the timing. When someone uses DFA unless the land beside you, its virtually impossible to get a hit in, if they are skilled. This is because skilled players know to jump back and the damage timing makes it all but impossible to run in and out. Against newbies its rather easy, because they sit there for a second.

 

This pretty much defeats the purpose of the delay and rewards people for spamming DFA--it should be much more dangerous to use.

 

Again, I urge you to put faith in Raven, they designed a good game, and they will patch it in such a way that it will remain good. It would be like assuming that all the models would become Ewoks because they were 'tweaking the models.'

 

You're griping about something you know nothing about...

[Nill the Mean]

SUCK IT HEAVY WHORES!!!

DFA IS BEING TWEAKED!!!

 

Soon you will not be able to spam DFA!

Then you will realise how much you suck!

Then those of us who have praticed more than just DFA will reign supreme!

Suck it DFA lamers! You can't save yourself now!

[Rogue74]

Nill, did you not read any of the posts either? Apparently not.

 

 

I still think that overall the heavy stance is not a problem. I think more of the problem is with skill and people getting frustrated and blaming it on the heavy stance for that problem. The same thing has happened with EVERY 1st person game. DOOM it was the rocket launcher, Medal of Honor: AA is the rocket launcher/shotgun, etc.

 

None of these are problems or they wouldn't have been put in MP at all.

 

DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

[Vestril]

Nill, did you not read any of the posts either? Apparently not.

 

 

I still think that overall the heavy stance is not a problem. I think more of the problem is with skill and people getting frustrated and blaming it on the heavy stance for that problem. The same thing has happened with EVERY 1st person game. DOOM it was the rocket launcher, Medal of Honor: AA is the rocket launcher/shotgun, etc.

 

None of these are problems or they wouldn't have been put in MP at all.

 

DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

 

IF it was easier to avoid and easier to kill people that did it, people would figure out that spamming it isn't an intelligent thing to do.

 

Yes, I'm frustrated by DFA, not because it beats me, but because it is the most boring thing in the game. It takes forever to kill someone spamming DFA because if they have even half a brain they can jump out of the way just as it's damage stops. It's a pretty buggy move, and repairing those bugs would make it so that people don't bother just hitting their DFA bound keys again and again and again...

[the 7th Jedi]

yup, the saber can damage an opponent the whole time its buried on the ground after DFA. the player can then quickly jump/roll sideways or backwards without much worry since there isn't much vulnerability time as long as he/she faced the opponent....hence the spamming of the move.

 

personally, it is easy to avoid, but since its powerful and easy to execute, it can become toatlly overused and abused.

[Tree]

Originally posted by Rogue74

DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

 

Wow you should try playing aginst DFA instead of spamming it all the live long day.

 

Easy to aviod. You bet it is.

 

Easy to counter attack against? BAHAHAHAHA

Id like to see you do it. Since it is so easy to counter please take a demo of yourself countering it multiple times then post it.

If you aproach them you die. I can occasionally get a hit in but I have to get real lucky.

Even when they don't turn you can still get killed becasue of the buggy-ness of it. I've aproached them from all different angles and died.

 

I don't know why I replied to this. If you are saying its easy to counter attack no one is gonna take you seriously anyway.

 

You also left out that it is one of THE easiest moves to pull off. Which a one-hit one kill should not be.

[Vestril]

You also left out that it is one of THE easiest moves to pull off. Which a one-hit one kill should not be.

 

Eh, well even if they make it more complex the scripts will still flow through the net and people will still spam it with ease.

[Solo4114]

I have to agree with Tree's two posts in this thread. DFA, Heavy Stance, etc. are a major problem to my way of thinking. The stances aren't balanced in any sort of "rock paper scissors" way. It's light being weakest, medium being so-so, and heavy ruling. The stances should not, in my opinion, be brogressions from weak to strong, but rather simply different strategic styles to respond to given situations AS THEY ARE IN THE SP VERSION.

 

Even if they do tweak DFA to the point where you can't kill someone with their sabre embedded in the ground, until they implement a real blocking system, this game's sabre combat just isn't gonna be all that much fun to me at least. It's NO fun right now for me, since it just feels so pointless. It's not dueling, it's jousting. Run at a guy, swing your sabre, hope you hit, rinse, repeat. That's it. At least, as far as I've been able to tell on the NF servers I've played. Duel servers are a bit better, but even then, after you play a few duels on the same map against the same three guys, it gets old. The only other option is to go to a server with a longer list which means you get to twiddle your thumbs longer. Joy. (yawn)

 

IF they could balance the stances to the point where they're actually simply strategic choices that you can apply to different situations (as in SP), and IF they could implement a real blocking system whereby you can actually block more accurately (again, as in SP), then the MP portion of the game would start to take on some pretty fun characteristics.

 

That said, they'd still have their work cut out for 'em in terms of the guns v. sabres issue, and the tweaking of force powers to make them a bit less cheesy and spammable. Like I've said elsewhere, this game's got real potential, but as it stands, it just doesn't do that much for me. I keep checking this board and posting to it, however, in the hopes of seeing good news re: what's been changed, how it's been changed, and what may yet be changed.

[GonkH8er]

If you're stupid enough to run straight into someone's dfa move, and not be quick enough to roll sideways, then you deserve to die a cheap death. Sorry...

[GooglyMoogly]

I agree with Solo. The difference in styles should not be DAMAGE it should simply be the types of moves you can do. I mean...why should I get hurt any more by running into a stable red blade then I do when running into a blue or yellow. A saber is a Saber right?..this AIN'T Star Trek (set sabers on stun Luke!).

 

Bah.

 

I don't think this patch is really gonna change much, since my main problem with heavy is NOT the damage its the lame players that know nothing else. The most I hope for is more ability to get closer to them without having to worry about dieing to a bug.

 

My heart sinks everytime I see someone backing up to get "the right distance" so they can start the DFA..not because I can't fight against it, but because it's boring to fight...plain and simple...ever watch two DFA spammers go at it...LOL...what a boring fight.

 

I play medium almost exclusively and will frequently be the top player that does not use Heavy or Dark forces. I don't care if I win or not...I just want some good battles.

 

Heavy/Strong/Red or whatever is a necessary evil. It's always going to be a problem.

[Borf]

ROTFL, all the heavy whores a getting cranky in this thread.

 

Live with it ppl, learn how to get kills without:

 

dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, etc...

 

 

 

Yours Truly

Borf[saberSociety]

 

wang.

[Rogue74]

Easy to counter attack against? BAHAHAHAHA

Id like to see you do it.

 

 

Yep easy. You can Force push them, kick them at the top arc of the move, etc. I'll leave out the last couple since it sounds like you use it a lot. The only time it works is if someone doesn't see it coming.

 

The only time I even use DFA is if I'm outnumbered and by myself. It's helpful to get one or two less opponents.

[Borf]

Fair enough dude, at least your sensible with it

[jedialphaknight]

Heh Heh Heh, take that heavy users.

 

I don't mind heavy, I mind ABUSING heavy, example: DFA, never trying other stances just heavy.

 

Now what really really makes me laugh has to be how people who use "heavy" are the skilled people. I love that, in fact everytime someone says it, I can't help but chuckle.

 

I remember back a couple weeks ago someone released a "saber moves FAQ" and each stance had its own commentary on the stance. I remember the one for heavy "heavy, which most skilled people I know use" haha

 

you know what is skill? people who kill you on light or medium, THAT is skill, how? they actually have to be able to pull off combos and THEY use timing not you heavy ****ers who all you do is try to go in and out stabbing with heavy. you wanna see skill, find someone who uses the other stances and see how well they do.

 

and then there comes the "well stfu I mean heavy is legit" yeah....right...so much skill, the other person runs into your saber, or you get lucky and kill them. oh wait wait, sorry the skill comes from when you "time" it , BS man, you don't time anything, ever notice how many tries it can take a heavy "skilled" user to hit someone?

 

Lets just see how all you heavy people are when the patch comes out.

[MrCrusher]

Solo makes a good point each stance should be independent of the other but equally effective - Rock, Paper, Scissors approach.

You should be able to spec in any one stance independently.

 

Specing in defense would be the best way to add balance. If you could defend with certianty against button mashers and Strong-stance only users then the randomness and red-stance jousting would all but disappear. When Raven implemented the death-from-above move in the enhancement pack for Heretic 2 it was BLOCKABLE. Also the attack (Downward Stab) can only damage a very small point where the player lands and it leaves them wide open for a counter attack.

 

The defense system is very effective for stratigic, deliberate duels. The only way to get thru the defenses of a good player was the Jump-Kick that knocked the defender down, or out flanking them, or waiting for them to open up during an attack. I suspect this is what Raven intended to do but just ran out of time play testing. The good side to all of this is that we get to be the play testers.

 

All three stances should be equally effective but stratigically different. Anything less would be a mistake.

 

.....now I've got to get back to mapping

[Gmeister]

Heavy stance isn't mean to be used exclusively.

 

Some of these heavy stance only players turn out to be total scrubs. They hide their lack of skill in a stance which kills in one or two swings. It's very boring to watch two heavys fight.

 

I use medium stance by default and switch to heavy when an opponent leaves themselves open or another situation where my gaming instinct tells me to use it.

 

Heavy stance can be countered very easily. Play the heavy stance whores defensively. Wait for them to swing and attack at the end of their heavy swing. Most of the time, I get these heavy only whores to get uncharacteristically get out of their comfy stance because they get tired of losing.

[Risk18]

What servers does everyone play on that DFA is so bad? Backstab spammers are far more annoying.

 

Heavy stance gets knocked down with push/pull/kick all of the time. Usually some DFA spammer just gets ignored or blasted.

 

Pull/Backstab spammers are the worst imo. I see "assfighters" all the time now. Sometimes it's escapeable, but most of the time it's not. There's also a bug with the Light-backstab doing full damage even while you are in front of the person(as the saber goes into ready position)