Is useing a scipt cheating?

[SnowMongoose]

wow.

 

this Uridium OBVIOUSLY didnt read the posts I have made earlier.

 

I ONLY USE SCRIPTS TO DISCO SABER COLOR AND TO TAUNT

 

idiot!

 

First off.... I could beat your skanky ass anyday.

bring it bitch.

 

Secondly, you in no way address my argument about the designers intent...my main point in fact.

 

Third, as always, Everyone is ignoring the simple fact that ANYONE can use a script.

you dont need to be a rocket scientist, especially with people like leelink posting every script they find.

by writing your own or using other peoples, it takes VERY little work to use scripts in JK2.

 

Fourth... please dont attempt to attack my mental prowess.

It is completely uncalled for, as well as wrong in the most basic sense.

 

Fifth... I in NO way "made it quite clear use them". in fact, I stately bluntly that I do not use scripts. several times.

again, please read the thread before you waste our time.

 

Sixth..... dont talk **** that you cant back up.

As I said earlier...I will own you any time you would like to come out and play. and I will do so without scripts, just like always.

 

phew.

bah, stupid flamers!

(if he is going to insult me, e should at LEAST use better grammar!)

 

Snow

[Avalon]

Actually, contrary to common belief, scripting can be used for cheating purposes. It's possible to use scripting to do things such as jump to infinite heights, due to a bug in the movement console commands. I'm not sure how it happens, but when I was playing with the +moveup/+forward/etc. commands the other day, I managed to trigger a jump which threw me farther up than even a Jump level 3 could possibly do. It didn't do it consistantly, in fact it was seemingly random. But it happened often enough for me to decide that scripting is indeed cheating.

 

Besides that, I still think scripting is the "Dark side of the Force," a quick and easy way to doing something that otherwise would take a long time to master. It requires less coordination and scripters can do a lot more in a lot less time - for example, if I want to do the 'Death from Above', I have to use both hands and I can't start hitting keys to do another move while I'm in the middle of it. A person using scripts, however, would hit a button and already start hitting keys for his next attack before he's even started the lunge.

 

I can't really say it's an unfair advantage, because it is true that everyone has scripting at their fingertips. However, someone who uses scripts really is missing out on the best part of the game, as it was said somewhere above. Where's the fun in fighting, if all you really have to do is point your mouse in the right direction and push one key to do a combo that was intended to be difficult to execute? In my opinion, people who use scripting to execute offensive moves have probably missed the point of the game.

 

Also, on the note of Raven intending for players to be able to do this.. Raven is a development studio made up of human beings, a terrible species that is known to make mistakes. They may be professionals, but that doesn't make them immune. It's very possible that they didn't foresee this or give it any amount of thought at all. It's very possible that they did foresee it and decided against it, but were unable to make anti-scripting work properly. Maybe they planned to take it out in a patch. Whatever it is, it can't simply be said that Raven intended it to be this way and thus scripting is fair game; something that seems like a pretty flimsy excuse to me.

[tempest8008]

Originally posted by SnowMongoose

...Secondly, you in no way address my argument about the designers intent...my main point in fact.

 

Snow,

 

The designers left all of that stuff available to allow the modding and skinning community the opportunity to try to IMPROVE the game. Without that config file, and the others available, you can't mod the game properly, or test it after you've modded. Unscrupulous folks have EXPLOITED that by learning how to script moves. I'm not saying a scripted lightsaber colour change or a bind for taunt is cheating...it isn't. But you have to concede that someone who has bound a key to do the DFA consistently, or the Pull, turn, backsweep move IS cheating. They've taken a relatively complex key/mouse/movement pattern and bound it to a single key that allows them to do the same move over and over. They've ELIMINATED a learning curve, and this puts them way ahead of a LOT of players who don't have the skills to fight back yet.

 

Do you think that that is fair? FAIR, Snow, is everyone being on the same playing field, separated only by their abilities. A scripter has given themselves a big boost by coding a lot of the harder moves. Now, admittedly, this game is a lot different than some other games where you can do 12 or 13 hit combos, but the essence is the same.

 

Originally posted by SnowMongoose

Third, as always, Everyone is ignoring the simple fact that ANYONE can use a script.

you dont need to be a rocket scientist, especially with people like leelink posting every script they find.

by writing your own or using other peoples, it takes VERY little work to use scripts in JK2.

 

Snow

 

 

You have truly succumbed to the Dark side....

 

It's EASY so it's okay to do? I know if it was hard a lot fewer people would be doing it...but then again....and this is the reason I think people get very passionate about this debate...I think that those who have spent a LOT of time and effort learning the games moves, so they can go into a MP game and not embarrass themselves, are angry because there are scripters out there who can own them every time. They've done a lot of hard work (they need to do more, otherwise they wouldn't be beat) and they're upset that someone has scripted moves in 5 minutes it took them 5 hours to master.

 

Once again, Snow, it comes down to this:

 

Scripting that doesn't affect a fight is a MOD, and MODs are good. Scripting MOVES allows a player to put a lot less time and effort into learing the game, and lets them consistently perform difficult moves that even a seasoned veteran may screw up from time to time. This gives them an advantage.

 

Just becase you CAN hack a game, doesn't mean you SHOULD hack a game.

 

Snow, do you think people SHOULD script moves, to allow them to win fights?

[Star ReaVeR]

scripters are nerds, keep that in mind, as long as I know that I don't feel bad about losing:D

[zenroth]

Ok first all scripting is not cheating. If you followed the logic of it gives an unfair advantage then its cheating, then everyone needs the same system,ping, mouse, key layout, and config. Furthermore we all need the same skin, since that other skin is differnt and distracting giveing a unfair advantage.

 

Oh and since I use saber only even on gun servers, any of you all using guns are cheating since you have a advantage. BAH is all I can say, scripting yes can give you some power, but raw skill will beat it anytime. I dont know how many times ive seen people in quake try an use a rocket jump script, lag and miss there target and blow themselfs up.

 

Do I use scripts currently in JKII? No other than a config file to set my key layout and my skin/name and saber color I have no scripts. Have I thought about useing some scripts? Yes will I ? Probally not other than a script to toggle run or walk perhaps.

[Ono-Sendai]

I don't think it's cheating, but at the same time I would never embarrass myself by actually using scripts.

 

Ono-Sendai

[SnowMongoose]

Bah!

 

On the topic of Scripts taking advantage of exploits......

I was unaware of that, but the extent of scripts that I am addressing is basically limited to scripted moves and combos.

the amount of time and energy to find and bind some obscure loophole in the game is so far beyond that scope of jsut binding a combo or move taht is written in the manual that I do not consider them to be the same.

(Eg: in CS there is a recoil hack that while technically is a script, takes up around 2 pages of code...thats quite a bit more than one line of attack + wait etc)

 

On the topic of Ravens intent....

again, the fact that they chose to use the Q3 engine is enough for me. the Q3 engine is mainstream enough that many people can and do script things for it.... when a new game comes out (JK2...) they will start scripting for that.

The kind of 'mistake' that Avalon is talking about could only occur in a very sub par company...and as we can see from the quality of the game, Raven is a quality company.

In terms of them wanting to remove the config editing, having server enforcement of file consistancy would have been a relatively easy thing to do.

 

On the topic of the learning curve....

Once again, I do not script.

Hell, I dont even like script monkeys (backstab spammers...).

but I DO recognize that if they wanna play that way, thats fine by me.

It is 100% legal, and I will just come along and beat them using skill.

And as always, here is where I talk about EVERYONE havng acsess to scripts...because EVERYONE has acsess.

The playing field is level.

 

Tempest wrote

"But you have to concede that someone who has bound a key to do the DFA consistently, or the Pull, turn, backsweep move IS cheating."

 

Nope, I dont have to concede that point at all!

The elimination of the learning curve in no was constitutes cheating in this scenario.

Scripted moves may be a crutch for weaker/lazier players, but it is a crutch they are allowed to have.

(also, again everyone has acsess to scripts, some people just dont want to use them)

 

Tempest wrote

"Snow, do you think people SHOULD script moves, to allow them to win fights?"

 

It is 100% up to them.

I really dont mind script monkeys, they usually do not understand the game as well as I do...I just beat them.

I think that if someone wants to win badly enough, and they dont have the skills, that if they want to script, thats their call.

I dont script, and I wont because I find doing hte moves by hand fun, but I think is is solely personal preferance.

 

Bah..hope I didnt miss anything...

Gotta go to class...

 

Snow

[tempest8008]

Okay Snow....I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Personally, I think setting yourself up so your moves are 100% guaranteed each time is cheating. That's scripting in a nutshell as far as I'm concerned, lag or no lag.

 

In a way, we agree with each other.

We both think scripting moves is stupid, as any decent player will detect it and modify their tactics to eviscerate the scripter.

 

I just feel that someone who scripts their moves has moved outside of PLAYING the game and into the realm of PLAYING WITH the game. They have modified the 'rules' everyone else is playing under for their own gain.

 

Once again, I'm not saying they CAN'T do it.

I just don't think they SHOULD.

 

But that is my lame-ass opinion, do with it what you will.

 

(next thing you know I'll start defending the 'rights' of SC vs ASC)

[NomadWR]

First of off, SnowMongoose,

 

Building a key map, is not scripting. You don't have combine keys to create a key map...

 

Now let me try to put this in another way. Some of you have said that if you weren't supposed to change the scripts than Raven would'nt have left the files open... So since the files are open it's OK to rewrite them to suit you. Well in comparison, if I go in a store and merchandise is not locked behind bars or glass, then I can take it, and that is not stealing? Or is it?

 

So that is my feeling about rewriting the code to a game to suit your own purposes, which 99% of the time is to take advantage of those that have not changed their game in a way that makes it superior to the original game out of the box...

 

~Nomad~

[zenroth]

Thats a flawed concept Nomad since weve already payed for the game we own it. Thats like saying I cant take apart my ford 351 engine and bore the cylinders and put larger pistons in it , further more they choose the quake 3 engine which if you know anything about quake history every quake engine has had scripting support and it was left open on purpose.

[NomadWR]

Flawed or not, that is how I feel about hacking games!

 

I got a real bad taste for hacked games back in 98 playing Star Seige. Ever since then I've been really down on hacking a game...

 

I have nothing against make game mod.s where everyone on the server has the same modified files. But hacking to cheat is just wrong!

 

That's all I'm trying to say.

 

~Nomad~

[zenroth]

I agree but hacking a exe or pak file is alot differnt then makeing a script so you can do a move, or rocket jump, or switch from walk to run,etc.

[pipsqueak]

Also, a point that has been forgotten;

scripts are written to succed 100%. Once that key has been pressed you WILL preform DFA, pull/backsweep, whatever. Preforming them manually gives you the option of cancelling the move [just don't hit that last button]. These combos usually have a lot of recovery time, if they miss you're more or less open to attack. And scripters soon become predictable [well most of them anyway]. Really don't think it's an unfair advantage.

 

Well that was my $ .02

[Twins of Doom]

Originally posted by zenroth

Thats a flawed concept Nomad since weve already payed for the game we own it.

 

that's actually not true, in case you didn't notice lucas arts/raven own this game, they have copyright and trademark laws all over it, you actualy have NO rights over the game, none that surpass those of their copyright laws

 

 

PS: 100th post, yeah!

[Fatninja]

"cheating" : Giving you an unfair advantage over another player.

 

If using one binded key to perform a chain attack isn't an unfair advantage then trainers should be allowed lol.

[NomadWR]

Well then, I guess if this were a poll;

 

Scripting would considard cheating! (just from the count that is )!!!

 

~Nomad~

[zenroth]

Originally posted by Fatninja

"cheating" : Giving you an unfair advantage over another player.

 

If using one binded key to perform a chain attack isn't an unfair advantage then trainers should be allowed lol.

 

But that definition is to simple me haveing dsl, and someone haveing 56k is a advantage am I cheating? By your definition I would be. Scripting is atleast fair its open to everyone where broadband is denied.

[UnrealJedi]

<<Scripted moves may be a crutch for weaker/lazier players, but it is a crutch they are allowed to have. >>

 

I see. So if you have the freedom to do something, then it's okay? Bull. I have the freedom to leave my house, get in my car, buy a handgun, drive to a convenience store, and proceed to rob it. Does this mean it's okay for me to do it? No, of course not. It's a matter of ethics.

 

As someone else said earlier in this thread, using scripts for attack moves eliminates the learning curve. Contrary to what Snow believes, this is wrong. Using scripts instead of taking the time to develope the skills necessary to effectively use the saber invalidates all the work honest players put in to actually learn the skills needed. It makes the playing field uneven. Before you start in about guns vs sabers and lag times Zenroth, let me say this: People have the freedom and make the conscience choice to script. They have limited control over pings and lag times (aside from Internet connection speed, i.e. 56k, cable, DSL). Players have no control over their ISP's servers, the game servers they're on, and other variables.

As for using saber only on a guns server, that's a lousy excuse. Having guns and sabers is part of the ORIGINAL design and configuration of the program. If you are using saber only on a guns server, that's your choice, and not due to any change in the configuration of the program.

 

One final thought. Let's flip the coin and apply this whole debate in regards to guns. I'm sure it's possible to increase the amount of damage done by the various guns. I'm also sure we would all agree this is completely unfair. But to follow the logic used by some who posted on this thread, it's okay and legit. After all, if Raven let it be possible to change the damage done by the guns, then it must be okay. *sarcasm intended*

 

Changing the original design and configuration of the program, whether by scripting, editing files, etc. is unfair, unethical, and simply wrong. If it gives an unfair advantage, it's not okay, plain and simple.

[zenroth]

You know I think im gonna have to say I agree with you Unreal

I still dont belive scripting is cheating, maybe lame for attack moves but not cheating. However last night I probally saw 20DFA one after another in less then 3 minutes on a duel server, my guess is it was script.

 

While I did defeat the player it was annoying, he later did the same thing with medium finisher over and over.

[UnrealJedi]

Originally posted by zenroth

You know I think im gonna have to say I agree with you Unreal

I still dont belive scripting is cheating, maybe lame for attack moves but not cheating. However last night I probally saw 20DFA one after another in less then 3 minutes on a duel server, my guess is it was script.

 

While I did defeat the player it was annoying, he later did the same thing with medium finisher over and over.

 

Thanks, Zenroth. I was hoping what I was posting made sense. I guess on the "scripting is cheating" part we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I was talking to my roommate last night and explaining how the scripting worked. At first he thought it was cool you could do that, thinking it would cut down on a lot of time to perform moves. But after I explained my viewpoint on it, he agreed with me that scripting is cheating. He also pointed out that it would be a disadvantage because while the scripter is pulling off his scripted 10 moves in a row, his opponent is calmly moving behind him, unleashing a red stance move and finishing the scripter. He pointed out you can't cancel the script in the middle of it, unlike manual moves. A scripter will eventually become predictable, and in that case he is not only ruining the game for himself, but also for his opponent who's figured out his pattern and is bored to death killing the scripter for the 1,000,000,000,000,000 time.

[Tekken]

Originally posted by zenroth

However last night I probally saw 20DFA one after another in less then 3 minutes on a duel server, my guess is it was script.

 

While I did defeat the player it was annoying, he later did the same thing with medium finisher over and over.

 

It's possible it was a script, but I can do several DFA's in a row from diff angles and am not using a script. Just tons of practice paying off (finally!!!!)

 

My final take on this discussion is: Scripting attack moves is extremely lame. But people do it. I deal. So should everyone else.

 

Scripting attacks, however, is not cheating.

 

If I die at the hands of a script-kiddie, I examine the tactics that I've been using. And change 'em.

 

I was fighting someone last nite who was spamming the medium finisher; whether he was scripted or not, I don't know. But he pulled the move off effortlessly each time.

 

Our first fight, he nailed me with it. Then had the nerve to tell me "Don't use Strong stance so much". He nailed me as I was moving in with a left slash/overhead slash/right swing combo.

 

After that, everytime we would fight, he'd start the move, I'd back up a step, wait for him to land, and drop a DFA on him. He didn't win another fight from me. But, he accused ME of using a DFA script. LOL. Also called me a few choice names when I juimp-flipped over his finisher (again, after he landed), and fragged him with a Light back-stab.

 

My point in sharing this is, if someone has scripted their attack, they'll do it the same way and in the same situation almost every time. Whereby it becomes easy to take 'em out if you use your head and hard-earned skill.

 

That's all I have to offer. Scripting is a part of almost every online game. Whether it's fair or not is irrelevent. What IS relevent is how you counter it.

 

Tek.

[ThingAhMajig]

Originally posted by UnrealJedi

 

Thanks, Zenroth. I was hoping what I was posting made sense. I guess on the "scripting is cheating" part we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I was talking to my roommate last night and explaining how the scripting worked. At first he thought it was cool you could do that, thinking it would cut down on a lot of time to perform moves. But after I explained my viewpoint on it, he agreed with me that scripting is cheating. He also pointed out that it would be a disadvantage because while the scripter is pulling off his scripted 10 moves in a row, his opponent is calmly moving behind him, unleashing a red stance move and finishing the scripter. He pointed out you can't cancel the script in the middle of it, unlike manual moves. A scripter will eventually become predictable, and in that case he is not only ruining the game for himself, but also for his opponent who's figured out his pattern and is bored to death killing the scripter for the 1,000,000,000,000,000 time.

 

Are you serious? OMG

 

It seems egos and stupidity go hand in hand.

[zenroth]

Originally posted by Tekken

 

It's possible it was a script, but I can do several DFA's in a row from diff angles and am not using a script. Just tons of practice paying off (finally!!!!)

 

My final take on this discussion is: Scripting attack moves is extremely lame. But people do it. I deal. So should everyone else.

 

Scripting attacks, however, is not cheating.

 

That's all I have to offer. Scripting is a part of almost every online game. Whether it's fair or not is irrelevent. What IS relevent is how you counter it.

 

Tek.

 

I agree 100% with you, learn to deal with it its part of almost all FPS's. As far as if it was a script I faught the other night I dunno for certain and dont really care to much. Though it was extreamly lame to do id say.

[Lemon[H]ead]

Last night I wrote a script for a diagonal sweep, to see if it worked. It did, but even after adaptation and refinement I found it was easier to just execute the move normally.

 

What I DID do, though, was to email my LAN buddies and tell that I used my script to kick their butts at Jedi Knight 2 Last LAN and I sent them the ,very bare, script and they're now religiously writing in heaps of combos into it and thinking they'll whip my ass. now if THAT isn't cheating then i dont know what is

 

Heh we're mates though, and its all harmless fun It's great fun over LAN, excellent game.

[NomadWR]

My final take on this discussion is: Scripting attack moves is extremely lame. But people do it. I deal. So should everyone else.

 

This statment is of good mind. I agree with the "get used it" thinking, but that is only if it would stay at a simple level of scripting moves!

 

How ever this could be the begining of haveing a Hacked game online. Which in turn will lead to the creation of a

"Hack proof patch" which will really restrict the way the game is played. And then the Hackers will work around the "Hack Proof" patch, and it just keeps getting worse. Just wait till you start seeing players doing some really great force moves one right after another with out depleting their forcepower! Or look for something like that once in a while, if they're smart they won't use a hack like that too much or it will be noticed...

 

I'm just worried that this game will go the way that sooo many other games (that were fun to start with) did...

 

~Nomad~