Clone142 Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 I've always been bothered by Vader's redemption at the end of episode 6. Vader killed the Emperor for the same reason he killed those Tusken Raiders that had his mother prisoner, for the same reason that he almost failed in his duties when Padme was thrown out of the Assault Ship and I guess for the same reason that he ultimately turned to the darkside: fear of losing a loved one. You might say killing the Emperor was a good deed so he was redempted. In this matters, why you do something is more important that what you do. He didn't kill the Emperor because he thought him evil or because he decided the darkside was wrong. No Vader killed the Emperor because the Emperor was threatening Luke's life. If a bunch of Ewoks were on the verge of killing Luke, you can expect Vader would have killed them too. You might say that the simple fact that Vader was able to feel love for someone redempted him. But that has been proven wrong in Episode 1 and 2 already. Love does not a lightside Jedi make. And love might even be the cause of the downfall of even the "most powerful Jedi ever", if that is what Anakin become in Episode 3. So in the end, Vader/Anakin has learned nothing, he still makes the same mistakes for the same reasons. How does that make him a Jedi on par with Obi Wan or Yoda (those Jedi who are so at one with the ways of the Force that they have ghosts)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 We can't change who we are, and Anakin Skywalker was a man who loved too much. Love turned him to the darkside, and love turned him away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering The way I saw it is this... Episode:1 Fear. Anakin is scared, he's just been taken away from his mother. He's spent his whole life with her, he's scared, he's about to become a Jedi- you even get this from Yoda- I sense much fear in you Anakin even questions him over this what does that have to do with anything? Hence the whole fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering Episode:2- The fear for his mother becomes hate- the reason for this is the Tuskan Raiders killed his mother and he hates them for it, and he says he hates them because they took his mother away from him. Episode:3- Now that Padmé is the only person he has left to love, the death of her is gonna drive him over the edge, all this hate that's been building up inside him, the death of his mother, the fact that he feels ObiWan is holding him back (evidence in episode:2 after the death of his mother It's all ObiWan's fault- he's holding me back) will obviously drive him over the edge to suffering, he's lost everyone he's ever loved Episode:6- it's obvious Vader loves Luke, and obviously thinks of Luke as his son join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son Luke and Leia is all Vader has left to remind him of Padmé. Also I think the fact that Luke acknowledges that Vader is infact his father has something to do with it. If you remember back to the end of ESB, Luke literally doesn't believe Vader, until he asks the ghost of ObiWan about it later on, where ObiWan says the dark side killed your father, so in a way I was right or something like that, so ObiWan told him the truth that Anakin wasn't dead, he's still alive, problem is he's Darth Vader now. Anakin had seen so many people he loved being killed, I seriously doubt he could have handled seeing another person he loved be destroyed again- hence why he saves Luke at the end? I suppose does it really matter? It's a movie, and it was always gonna have a happy ending, we always knew Vader would come good at the end and save Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentSmith Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Anybody ever think that maybe Luke Skywalker was the chosen one? Anakin's own son to be the true figure of the prophecy. Unlikely but not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truthful Liar Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 mmm... No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone142 Posted June 10, 2002 Author Share Posted June 10, 2002 Thanks for the input but I don't think we're any nearer to understanding the sudden redemption of Vader. I understand the history of how Anakin fell to the darkside. What intrigued me is Vader's redemption to the lightside and his establishment as a Jedi on par with Yoda and Obi Wan. Anakin/Vader always act in his own self-interest and is in some very real ways controlled by his emotions. He uses the Force to make HIMSELF powerful (or look good in front of Padme) and to achieve HIS personal goals and satisfy HIS whims. Obviously all that is opposed to how a Jedi should think, behave and use the Force and ultimately it pushes him over to the darkside. But going back to the moment of redemption, killing the Emperor was simply another selfish action by Vader instigated by Vader's desire to save Luke (might be his only loved one that he successfully saved by the way) and as such it shouldn't really qualify as making him a Jedi and certainly not one on the level of Yoda or Obi Wan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaster21801 Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 With his dying moments, Vader cast off all of his evil ("Help me take this mask off") so that he could look upon his son with his own eyes and with good in his heart. Luke even says it.. "There is good in you, the Emperor hasn't driven it from you completely". Luke knows that Anakin is still in Vader's shell. At the end of Jedi, he abandons all of his life support too... Which was part of what made him "twisted and evil". So my theory is that because he cast off his darkness and reconciled with Luke, he died... honorably? I dunno what word I'm lookin for... but whatever.. that's my idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Originally posted by AgentSmith Anybody ever think that maybe Luke Skywalker was the chosen one? Anakin's own son to be the true figure of the prophecy. The chosen one can not have hair like lukes;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted June 10, 2002 Share Posted June 10, 2002 Vestril, That was the best way I have ever seen that explained. Great post. Kaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 With the Sith, the connection of master and apprencitce is absolute, the apprentice cannot go against his master ever or atall......and so in killing his sith master, Vader completely rejected the Dark side, thus redeeming him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveDallas Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 That's not entirely true. They can go against their master, inspite of Vader saying "I must obey my master." He tried to get Luke to side with him in Episode V "Join me..." In the book about Episode VI, Vader wants to let Luke kill the Emperor, but stops him. Not to protect the Emperor, but because Vader doesn't think Luke is ready to join the Dark Side just yet. In the book, Vadar feels there's still a chance Luke would return to the Light Side if he slices the Emperor through. So Vadar is still looking at this point for Luke to join HIM, not the Emperor. And according to the StarWars web site, the reason why there is 2 Sith, is because in olden times when there was many, they were too busy fighting each other for dominance. So they changed to having just 2 Sith, so a bunch of apprentices wouldn't gang up on the master (they are evil after all). So Vadar wasn't so blindly obidient to the Emperor as you imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveDallas Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 As far as the redemption... Luke sensed good in him. Lukes knowledge of the force enabled him to sense the good in Vadar, and he tapped that knowledge to bring out the good in Vadar. If it was selfish as some have implied, then Vadar, having killed the Master, would become the Master and want Luke to still join him and rule the Empire. But he doesn't, he's gone to the light side. So this isn't a selfish act, it was finding what was good in him so long ago, with Lukes help. Problem I have is there's no good in Anakin in Episode II. He's powerful in the force to be sure, but what's missing is a good jedi gone bad. What we have is a spoiled punk going bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishman26 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 what u have 2 remember about yoda, obi, and anakin is that they accepted their deaths. that could be a reason y qui-gon didn't disappear. ow 1 more thing, the pyre was just the suit of armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenom Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 I believe Vader was redeemed because he sacrificed himself to save another (admittedly his own son, but..) - a jedi quality... he must have known that by picking up the emporor he was going to be mortally wounded by his lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Steve Dallas, you have proven me quite wrong........*Embarased look* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaster21801 Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 Originally posted by Irishman26 what u have 2 remember about yoda, obi, and anakin is that they accepted their deaths. that could be a reason y qui-gon didn't disappear. ow 1 more thing, the pyre was just the suit of armor. Umm... how are you SURE that it was just the armor? I seem to remember a humanoid shaped under that armor while the pyre was burning.... in fact, I'm almost sure of it... watched the movie like a week ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenom Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 I know what Jaster means, but the official version is that Anakins body becomes 1 with the force before the pyre, you just dont get to see it.... its on starwars.com sumwhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norin Radd Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 Didn't they cremate Qui-Gon's body? I'm just curious as to why Qui-Gon's body didn't become one with the force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenom Posted June 15, 2002 Share Posted June 15, 2002 Your right, Qui-Gon was cremated accourding to tradition - its always mystified me why he didnt disappear as yoda & Obi-Wan did, specially as he was such a keen student of the 'living' force.... there is no given reason that i know of why sum jedi become 1 with the force and sum get a pyre (funeral/cremation) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 16, 2002 Share Posted June 16, 2002 My theory is this, if a Jedi is expecting to die, and has prepared him/herself for it, then when they do die they join with the force. However, if they are caught off guard, then they do not. Like the Jedi that died on Geonosis, they did not fade away that i saw. And Qui Gon was caught off guard by mauls stab killin him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotionMan Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Maybe "Becoming one with the force" before you die. You somehow tell the midiclorians to disolve your physical body and then you become a sort of spiritual form. Strange thing this force is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJD Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by Clone142 How does that make him a Jedi on par with Obi Wan or Yoda (those Jedi who are so at one with the ways of the Force that they have ghosts)? Did Anakin's ghost not stand beside Obi Wan and Yoda at the end of ROTJ?? According to Star Wars.com, Anakin too became one with the force and disapeared, although it wasnt really seen in Episode 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJD Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 Originally posted by ET Warrior My theory is this, if a Jedi is expecting to die, and has prepared him/herself for it, then when they do die they join with the force. However, if they are caught off guard, then they do not. Like the Jedi that died on Geonosis, they did not fade away that i saw. And Qui Gon was caught off guard by mauls stab killin him Thats what I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 aye, and motion man is also probably sort of correct.....they must prepare themselves to become one with the force, abrupt deaths in battle do not allow that. And QuiGon probably could have if he wouldn't have been so damn worried about anakin..........dummy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenom Posted June 17, 2002 Share Posted June 17, 2002 He certainly had enought time between Maul sabering him and uttering those final words to Obi Wan! Another theory floating around the forum was that Qui-Gon actually ordered the clone army posing as that jedi whose name i cant remeber (!) believing he was helping his old master Dooku and the republic, and thats why he didnt become 1 with the force - i cant see this as having happened myself, but it is an interesting theory.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.