Ultra long (possibly useless) post on JO saber gameplay

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, I've decided to start posting some more to see if I can get more people to discuss the saber system, and the ghoul2 system settings as well. No, I'm not making a mod or a patch, and as silly as it is seems, if I can influence the community to eventually make adjustments, or whoever ends up adjusting the game, then I'll willingly waste your time here on the boards. To start though, I'm going to be terribly reduntant and copy something i wrote a few hours ago. That post was in a thread that I feel isn't really going to be read much anymore, so I'll try my luck and get everyone to hate me, or simply ignore me, in this thread. It's long and tedious, so good luck.

 

It's good to finally read some posts that are in line with what I've been thinking all this time. I personally would like to see more threads that just constructively discuss some of the current existing game issues. Granted, it seems like the community will have to do the patching to change anything most likely, but it's better if people start talking now rather than find out months later that all hope for an official patch is lost. Here's some thoughts I had on 1.03.

 

I've tried the ghoul2 with sabertracefirst at 0, to get less blocking. I thought the change of play was for the better. Granted, more tweaking based on saber damage, etc., would be needed, but the way things played out felt slightly different. My experience has been that with everything at standard defaults, many of the swings and maneuvers are useless. The blocking was too high, rendering light and medium useless unless another person was swinging at the same time, and you hit an open spot. Basically, heavy stance was the only reliable stance. It basically broke through defenses constantly and even though start up was slow, parrying against it was minimal, if not almost non-existant. I would usually use the strafe right swing all the time. Basically, I found myself playing JK1 again, being able to just use either that move or the backsweep to affectiveness. With ghoul2, parries are more frequent, the heavy stance gets knocked around alot of it you get beat to the punch, and the blocking decrease causes players to be more strategic, to a certain degree. I don't want to play it up as miraculous, but the game play is dramatically improved in that sense. I actually found a reason to use medium stance, because it didn't get blocked all the time at close range.

 

Some people have commented that ghoul2 with blocking at one is better. I think that while it's fun, it ultimately ruins the game in the long term. Now, before I go on, let's clear up what I mean ruined. I know there are people who enjoy that game as is, or enjoy a lightsaber duel that lasts long and has alot of blocking, but in the end the learning curve, the room for improvement, decreases. The true appeal of games is how long you can enjoy the game as well as being able to develop as you play. With blocking at an all time high that renders more than half of the swings uselss unless another person swings, it creates a short ladder. Obviously, some competitive players and even normal players have left because they've reached the top. They've done all the can do. Blocking at 0 makes the chances for making contact much better.

 

The way I experienced it, the blocking was still there, pending you didn't 'hump' the opponent. With blocking at 1, there's no point in swinging anything else except certain heavy swings and the backsweeps/stab. This of course causes people to believe that certain moves are too strong and need to be reduced. That's precisely the wrong course of action, and I'm glad some people actually believe that as well. Those moves aren't too strong by themselves. Singularly, they are not too powerful. Yes, if I combine my backsweep with force pull knockdown, I am far too powerful. But if I manage to get it off in a fight one one one, and you don't notice that I'm trying to do it, then shame on you. I've notice that with ghoul2 on, the backsweeps and such are more or less blockable, even with sabertrace at 0. Again, if you 'hump' your opponent, then yes, you're dead. But, if you keep your distance at least a saber's length, you'll be fine. That's where the problem lies. Are you getting killed because that abusers of the backsweep or stab keeps breaking your defenses? Well, from what i've experienced, with the ghoul2 on and the sabertrace at 0, then yes that move is killer when you're too close. If you keep your distance, it's not a problem. In fact, most times I have been able to watch the person whiff the move and then counter with my own normal swings. Even worse, I sometimes could get in my own backsweep in reply. What's too close? It's what I call 'humping' and i think that's why people complain about blocking or even kicking, it's because they 'hump'. I'm not trying to be vulgar, but it's the best way to describe. Many people cry that kick should be reduced in strength, or even made harder to execute. That's baloney. The kick is not too strong, or even abusive. the problem lies in everyones instinct to ram a person. The kick was designed precisely to defend against that. To weaken the kick or even remove it is like removing an entire stradegy of the game. Rather than have normal duels where people strike from a distance and circle, people want to just run at a person, block shots from up close, and then from point blank range take a swing when they see an opening. That makes the game a mess. With sabertrace at 0, point blank means some of your saber swings, even some medium swings, will get in. This means in order to survive, and remain offensive, you can't run all the time. Sometimes you have to walk to slow your retreat or dodge enough to maintain range and initiative. It will not degrade the game into a jousting match, that only happens if you just run away and completely disengage, but you don't have to. If a person runs foward, side step, don't hump the person. Humping is bad, humping is what causes misconceptions .

 

Here's an example. Someone says that they fight a person for a long time, they get in all their light or medium swings. They are pretty much winning the match. Then said person walks backwards and kills them with backstab or backsweep. Let's forget about the pull thing for now. Just a backstab or whatever. The problem is not that the backstab/sweep is too powerful. The problem is actually two things. One - the victim was humping his opponent, so sorry, you got hit by a high priortiy, powerful move that IS avoidable, and two - saber damage for normal swings isn't very lethal. The backstab is fine. Why ever use a backsweep or backstab if you have to hit with it three times? That's silly, and promote the same ridiculously long battles that have been occuring because blocking ability against sabers is so high. These long battles don't occur because both players are good, it's because the blocking is so high, and only a select few swings have a reliability of hitting an opponent. This is not to say that no one is a good player, or that no one is capable of making long battles because they are good, it's just suggesting that these long battles should not be primarily attributed to skill, but rather to the incredible blocking ability. sabertrace 0 fixes that in my opinion.

 

So based on that gratuitous spiel, one that you probably either didn't read, skimmed because it was dreadfully boring, or simply steamed over it and mentally refuted every comment I made, here is a hopefully shorter breakdown of what I see as a truer and more sensible way for the community, or even Raven if they somehow take notice this more or less insignificant member of the internet and decide to make a patch, however the true patch system works, to improve the game.

 

Saber Damage:

Okay, I think we've had our fun and watered this game down long enough. We've all played 1.03, and we've not only tasted, but completely engorged ourselves with lower saber damage in an attempt to balance the game. I think it's served its purpose and parts of the community are satisfied. However, I'm willing to give everyone here the benefit of the doubt and proclaim that we've all gotten better. That means even the people who play ever so casually, and only play with their friends. So I issue the challenge (of which hundreds, or better yet, the one or two people who read this post regard as silly and useless) that we raise the saber damage and make the game more challenging for ourselves.

 

How should we raise it. Look, I've never played 1.02, so let's not just proclaim me as the guy who wanted to go back old school and held a grudge. I started on 1.03. I enjoyed the damage when I started because I like most new players couldn't handle everything. After much playing with many different people, and noticing the comments of the more competitive players, we've all figured out the system, and thus many of the moves we have deemed ineffective against the others we've found. On the other hand, we've also gotten better reflexes, and more defensive, so the other slew of maneuvers are not only weak but too easily blocked, and in the end, worth trading damage against the other dominant swings. Solution: put the damage ratios significantly higher. That's right, like 90/70/60. The question then comes "What about the differences between the stances. If I can score 120 damage with a light swing faster than I can score 90 damage with heavy stance, what's the point of ever switching. We're back where we started". Good point. However, I've always felt this way about that. These stances were never meant to be about damage per say. I'm certain Raven would not be silly enough to implement a style the primarily involved whether you wanted to do more damage or not. They meant to give different maneuvers to use against a player. With this high ratio, all the stances are downright deadly. So why use other stances? Here's the answer. With blocking at sabertrace 0 instead of one. While medium and light can get a few hits in, it's not an exorbitant amount. You keep range, you can block a great deal and parry a great deal, then counter strike. The differences in the stances should be in speed, the range, and the forcefullness of the swing, i.e the likely hood of breaking a person in complete defense. Heavy swing should be that highest damaging, but primarily the most forceful swings. I don't care if heavy swing only does a marginal bit more damage than medium or light if I get the higher advantage of breaking someone's guard, or meeting with their lighter swing and either breaking that or throwing their defenses down. If we change the system like this, people will suddenly be able to use all the stances again. Light stance keeps its speed relative to the medium stance, that's fine. However, it has no range. It would be primarily your weapon against gunners, now that you can do a good deal of damage per swing, and if you get in really close in a saber fight (humping) for some reason, you can beat your saber opponent to the punch. Otherwise, you switch to medium for you medium range to long range swings to normally engage someone. Then, you switch to heavy swing if you know you can throw your move, avoid getting hit during the wind up, and want to take your chances at slamming your saber down on someone. That should be the true reward of heavy swing. Not damage. If we reduce saber stance to a primarily damage system, they become nothing more than guns. Why use the bryor pistol when I can use a rocket laucnher or a sniper rifle with the same amount of accuracy and more punch? And if you reply - "because I get more ammo" or "the splash damage is less", then we're all going off track. Same with sabers. Why use light or medium if they can be blocked all the time with sabertrace 1, or if the damage means nothing compared to my opponents heavy swings i.e... i hit him three times with some well place light hits while this guy is winding up for his heavy swings. Then, he gets in his one or two, and i'm almost dead. However, i still need another three or four to go. He just needs to kick me or something. I'm not complaing about dying so fast, i'm complaining that the style of attack I used was so ineffective. Lowering damage for the stronger, more fatal swings wont' fix it because from my experience, you can't fool your opponent the same way all the time. With light stance or even medium, that's what's happening. i have to outthink my opponent not once or twice, but five or six times, sometimes seven. Meanwhile, if he's smart and sticks with heavy swing (this is assuming we have sabertrace 1) he's got the only moves that in the end really have that destructive guard break power. And he's the only who truly gets rewarded for outhinking me. This limits the game. Is it still fun. Sure, it's amazing. But like I said, the ladder is too short. With a week or two of dedication, you can climb this ladder all too quickly. And you can only stand on top of that ladder for so long before it loses its appeal and breaks down.

 

Okay, post is too long... I should just wait and see if anyone ever cared to read it, and then based on that, continue my opinion. Have a good day, take care, etc. Oh yeah, and thanks for reading if you did, hope i did not disturb you.

[fink_dix]

I think that's reading a bit too much into it. The light stance I find to be excellent against heavy stance players!! I change my stance many times during a saber duel. It's exactly like real sword play. The idea is to block alot, and stab or slash when you have an opening.

So I think it's fine as is, the only thing that should be implemented, is that when you're pulled down, if someone goes to backslash and you remain prone on the ground, the backslash\stab shouldn't hit, it should go over your head.

Yellow stance is a great all rounder, and heavy I use in certain situations, when an opponent is off his guard and I can lunge in with an overhead to basically kill the other player.

So as far as I'm concerned damage should remain as is.

[BlackDove]

The light stance and the medium stance do as about the same amount of damage...don't you think there is something wrong with that?

[Dark Begger]

damage should be increased for obvious reasons. First of all, I can see that you think the backstab/sweep is bad, yet instead of making saber damage stronger, you decide to NERF the move. Instead of trying to make something better, you decide to make something else worse. That's not the way to go about as to change is concerned. Raven tried that with 1.02, and came out with 1.03, the infamous 1.03, with more bugs and problems than 1.02 ever had.

 

Increased damage will cause backstabbers to be weary of putting their backs infront of an opponent, ultimately destroying backstabbers.

 

I use light medium and heavy right now, and it is obvious that damage needs to be increased. Just the other day I was in a 2v2 tournament game for 20 minutes, and the score ended as 8-6. EIGHT to SIX in TWENTY minutes...and let me tell you that EACH AND EVERY ONE of those kills were backstab/sweep kills or a heavy stance DFA. When the fate of the game is decided among 3 different moves it is obvious that the rest of the moves need a real upbringing to be back on par with these special moves.

[<>Phant0m<>]

I must say that i found it a very interesting read, highlighting some good points that need 2 be addressed.

 

Thx doctor shaft and i look 4ward 2 the 2nd part.

 

 

 

 

Dont flame me im kool

[Lord Nodata]

Well said sir. Have you played Jedi vs Merc or is this just duel talk? Because the saber are QUITE deadly in that game mode. (At least to Mercs). My server has the ghoul2 settings ON and SaberTrace OFF. These settings combined with the compiled 1.03a (mod) makes for some Sweet Sweet Sweet gameplay...

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51955

[Doctor Shaft]

I'm afraid I haven't played on Jedi vs Merc, although I've read much about it. However, these days I haven't been able to use the internet on my other computer which has the games on it.

 

On the other hand, I'm glad some people read my post. I'm not going to do the second half right now, I don't want to just ramble on and create a misunderstanding as to what my opinion is.

 

In response to finx -dix, and this is not an outright insult or disregard for your opinion, but I must disagree with you. I too, change my stance like you. I too also found that combat seemed to simulate real swordplay, and I also found the quick light attacks useful against heavy. However, the real clincher comes in the communities increased skill level. The reason I propose these changes is not soley based on the desire to see strong sabers. Rather, the community as a whole is getting too good for what we have right now. Sure, people can say that they still encounter quite a few new players or even awful players, but the fact that displeasure gets spoken of so constantly is because the damage levels we have aren't challenging enough. And not to insult your own playing skill level, but you'll find that up against the 'competitive' player -- or the person who plays the game to get better, the one who searches for the most efficient set of moves in his arsenal -- that in the end your switching of stances do no matter as much anymore. No, they are not completely worthless, but in the long run they have little value. The community has gotten used to the moves, and no longer fears them. 20-40 points of damage is almost laughable if I can trade hits with the heavy swing all the time. However, with a drastic increase in saber damage, your tactics will be a great deal more effective, and finally people will FEAR the lightsaber, rather than crunch the numbers in their head.

 

Of the other replies I have seen, this is true that a majority of games have broken down into twenty minute marathons, and the backsweep usually ends up the deciding factor. This is because it's the only saber move that is lethal. Is the game fine as is -- sure, if you don't feel like raising the bar. Again, I do not try to insult anyones playing level, but I feel raising that saber damage is the key. Less blocking, more damage. This will do two great things: 1) No more humping. If you stay close, but not rubbing up against each other, blocking and parrying with the ghoul2 system is excellent, if not superb. If you manage to get your shot in real close though, you have a good chance of scoring. That's the way this game should evolve now. WE can't wade in the shallow end of the pool forever, we must move on, or this game will fade out. 2) Rather than having to destroy an entire set of moves, we just give ourselves more moves. Right now, people are discussing making mods. There's the kaiburr saga, or this and that. Best of luck to them. However, rather than wait and anticipate new saber stances, and the like, the moves raven has given us are fine, if not close the excellent. The only thing they need to make them work though is that lethality. Light stance is not supposed to be like poking a guy with boxing gloves. this is a long shaft of burning plasma. It should be that you poke, get blocked fairly easily, but when you get through... ouch. We cannot continue to view saber stances as heavy damage, medium-range-low-damage, and short-range-superfast-low-damage. We should emphasize more our view of the stances as heavy-forceful-break-your-guard-swing, medium-range-well-adjusted-swings and light-very-furious-but-more-parriable-and-smashable-but-still-very-dangerous. Okay. Hopefully I get more feedback or opinion.

[BlackDove]

You're just posting these big chunks of text to torture me, aren't you?

[Dark Begger]

yes he is superman..mwahhahah suffer!!! READ OUR LONG DAMN POSTS! heheheh...damn I'm bored..

[BlackDove]

Obviously...

[Dark Begger]

shut up...I hate being an ewok.

[BlackDove]

I know

[fink_dix]

I see what you're saying a bit more clearly now Doctor Shaft, and I must say, I agree all right. Good post.

[Dark Begger]

what comes after ewok anyways?

[Jedi2k2]

what's wrong with being an ewok? you racist against them? :jawa

[Dark Begger]

I don't know..being an Ewok is bad.they're too short. that's it.

[darth dragon]

BIG FIGHT

 

SATURDAY 16th JUNE

HANN SERVER (SEARCH FOR Darth Dragon IN THE PLAYER SEARCH)

 

=SCC=KAL-EL

V

Darth Kaan

FREE ENTRANCE FOR THE FIGHT OF THE YEAR

FORGET TYSON ANDLEWIS THIS IS EVEN BIGGER.

WATCH OUT FOR MORE UP TO DATE NEWS ON THE jEDI ACADEMY 1 & 2 FORUM.

[Dark Begger]

Hey darth! I'm complaining here...geez, post your fight promotion somewhere else...anyways...damn ewoks...lol

[Jedi2k2]

Originally posted by darth dragon

BIG FIGHT

 

SATURDAY 16th JUNE

HANN SERVER (SEARCH FOR Darth Dragon IN THE PLAYER SEARCH)

 

=SCC=KAL-EL

V

Darth Kaan

FREE ENTRANCE FOR THE FIGHT OF THE YEAR

FORGET TYSON ANDLEWIS THIS IS EVEN BIGGER.

WATCH OUT FOR MORE UP TO DATE NEWS ON THE jEDI ACADEMY 1 & 2 FORUM.

 

put my money on Darth Kaan. SCC KAL-EL is all talk.

[fitzwilliamd]

Tusken Raider comes next. Fun

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Jedi2k2

 

put my money on Darth Kaan. SCC KAL-EL is all talk.

 

=SSC=Kal-El won't be fighting

[darth dragon]

SHI*, THIS FUC*S UP EVERY THING. I HAD T-SHIRTS, AND OTHER STUFF AND I WAS ALREDAY LINING UP SOME OTHER FIGHTS, WHY GO BLOW MY DREAM . OW WELL THERE ARE A LOT MORE SUCKERS.... I MEAN GOOD FIGHTERS.

[BlackDove]

I bet there are other people who want to fight...

[Jedi2k2]

Originally posted by darth dragon

SHI*, THIS FUC*S UP EVERY THING. I HAD T-SHIRTS, AND OTHER STUFF AND I WAS ALREDAY LINING UP SOME OTHER FIGHTS, WHY GO BLOW MY DREAM . OW WELL THERE ARE A LOT MORE SUCKERS.... I MEAN GOOD FIGHTERS.

 

I'll take one hat please

[Dark Begger]

YES! I've grown a foot or two and am now a tusken Raider...excellent..