Ultra long (possibly useless) post on JO saber gameplay

[BlackDove]

I'm a Sith Lord....feel my

[Dark Begger]

oh I will be up there soon. mwhaahha

[BlackDove]

13 more for me and I get to change my title

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, I've decided to write another post in the same thread, hoping that even more people will somehow navigate through my long writing and reply. Truth be told, I can only wonder if anyone would be willing to compile a patch themselves, one that incorporates some of the ideas.

 

The first post, if you took the time to read, dealth with my saber damage thing. I proposed 60/70/90. But moving on, here's a few more thoughts I had on the current system that 1.03 gives us right now. It's not a total lost cause, if some adjustments are made by a skilled modder, etc.

 

One of the things people commented about that struck a cord with me was the saber throw. So I figure I'll comment on the force powers. I've always had a huge imagination about a whole slew of force powers, but since that's something that involves a creative mod, and not just slight adjustments, I'll avoid that. One of the issues with saber throw is how it is spammed. Granted, I understand how some would say that it is both idiotic to be swinging your saber from long range, and that the damage is only 30, but there are still some things to be discussed. Firstly, I don't know about you, but I've noticed that saber throw comes out faster than a light stance normal swing. This isn't a joke. It just flies out. The problem is not that from long range it ruins a game. It's from short range. It is indeed true that the saber throw certain has extremely long range coupled with faster than light stance swing ability. This allows a person to essentially turn saber throw into a gun. Should we slow it down? No. Should we make it take more force power. Nah. The only real solution I see to saber throw is finding a way to be able to knock it away when blocked, and even better allow it to be knocked away by force push. However, figuring that out is beyond me.

 

Other Force powers:

The infamous pull force power is seen by many as too powerful. It's not so much push as it is pull, because pull allows the person knocked down to be put directly at the attackers feet for a fatal blow. The solution to this is not weaking that sweep. I already spoke about that move in another post. I understand that 1.03a causes push and pull to all but not function unless a person does not max out the force powers, or is low on force. I always thought a good solution to the push/pull issue is to allow vunerabilty based on a person's force level soley. If we do old 1.03 old system of also pushing out simple movement, we have a problem. Especially on levels that involve nothing but ledges and falls. Yes, it's cool to push people off a ledge, but it has gotten ridulous how tight space ledge battles have evolved. The lightsaber has become the shield, and force push the only weapon. The best stradegy is not to be honorable, or time your strike, but actually just to wait for someone to swing first. I imagine a fix would be to allow force push/pull to work when a person has only around 40% of their pool. I don't know how to impliment anything, just throwing out ideas. But why 40%, isn't that a bit high? At one point I was even dreaming 50%. This does a few things I think. First, it would limit ones use of the force. You have someone who just loves to abuse saber throw all day, and we can't impliment the knock saber away? Fine, just wait out on the force powers to drain. With this, we could also increase dark side force power effectiveness. Again, my ideas may be skewed, please comment back. Make lightning hurt pretty bad, but once you hit 40%, bad news. Force lightening, hurts a little more, but let it drain like crazy the force pool. Lightening should be a power that a person uses to over power someone, and as such the force pool should drain dramatically. Right now, the damage is relatively moderate, but a person can just douse people with it like a sprinkler. Also, the damage it does is not very useful. So, if we make it more useful, give it a very dangerous boost, but make the pool drain like crazy, coupled with the fact that you're susceptible to force powers while using yours, it leaves you open for the 40% pull, fatally kill, rinse method. People won't just use force speed and jump to constantly run from a fight and gather health, because you drain yourself too quickly.

 

Force push can work on the same system. Moving on to other powers though. The force heal system cannot be fixed using a good health number. The fact of the matter is this. A dark sider does not want to fight someone, only to know that he'll have to club his opponent to death because he can instantly recover. The light sider doesn't want to use a power that heals instantly, but only does 10 health or 15, and takes his entire pool away. The solution should be to get rid of instantaneous health. I always imagined that it should stay as the kind of meditation needed, i.e. no saber and standing still, recovering. How would this work in a fast pace, no breaks, competitive game, or on a level that is not multileveled, and leaving opportunity for hide and escape? Well, we shouldn't be using force heal as a staple power in the first place. It just shouldn't be. Second, if you manage to push someone away, or kick them down, there's your few seconds of rest. Meanwhile, you can slowly recover while draining some force points. I'll have to think more about how the system could be modified, pending anyone EVER takes interest in what I'm writing. Well, the post is long again, I'll just stop here, and try again later. If you ever think someone else would be interested in reading this (not likely) then feel free to copy past, refer to this thread, etc., and just let them read it. You odn't have to tell them who it's from. Have a good day. Take it easy.

[magis70]

I think your ideas are right on the mark,doubt raven is gonna do anything about it though.As for your ideas on force powers,i couldent care less either way,everything is fine right now,ecept for the fact that you have to basically be a god to use dark side effectivly.In a perfect world,i would say up the saber damage accross the board,no stance is more powerful than any other,Make the stances more or less different "styles" of fighting with emphasis on stronger stances being able to break defenses easier,rather than making them like guns as you said.And make the special moves "not" do more damage,but just break defenses instead,that way they would still be very useful,but pointless to spam.

[brethenc]

Well, now it's my turn to disagree on a few points:

 

Kicking. I have a problem with ANY unblockable move, regardless of the damage it does. Why risk trying to best my opponent when we wind up close to each other when I can just whip out 18 or 20 points of guaranteed damage? Not to mention that if I miss, I'll just end up jumping past or away from them, so I don't have to worry about a counter for screwing up. I love using kick to counter missed lunges and DFAs, but it's too easy to abuse, and is too frequently the right choice to make when you and your opponent are closing or in close quarters. I can't say for sure how to fix it, because kicking definately has it's uses, and is fun to boot [pun intended], but I think it needs to be fixed.

 

Nerfing. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to 'nerfing'. People don't like that the backstabs/swings are unblockable 1 hit kills, but they don't want them nerfed. What are you going to do? Make everything else unblockable 1 hit kills? Face it, the game is not perfectly balanced, and the backswings are too powerful. Decrease the damage they do [by alot] and make them blockable. Sheesh. Raven could have put a move in 1.03 that instantly killed the other player from anywhere in the arena, and people would cry and complain [rightfully] that it was obnoxious and overpowered...but DON"T nerf it whatever you do! C'mon people...sometimes the fix is to decrease the power/effectiveness of a weapon/ability, as opposed to constantly increaseing the power and effectiveness of all the others. Quite frankly, I question the purpose the backswing moves serve...seems to me that if I get behind my opponent, then I should have the advantage. They need to turn around, or roll/jump away...not have an instant kill at their disposal.

 

The special moves need to be 'specialized'. Each one needs to have a purpose that it is intended for and excels at...providing you connect. Currently the lunge and medium finisher are way too useful in any number of situations. I agree that the special moves should not really do more damage than regular swings of the same stance. If they do, then the recovery needs to be long enough for me to march in and do an equivalent amount of damage should you miss. The idea is that players fight with the regular moves within the stances, attempting to outthink and break through each other's defense [or offense], utilizing special moves on the rare occasions [or not, depending on your opponent] that present themselves. If you miss a special move, their needs to be a penalty...your opponent needs to have a reasonable opportunity to deal you the same amount of damage that you failed to deliver to them [i.e. you screwed up].

 

I would like to see player movement slowed when your saber is knocked away, to about as much as it is slowed when you take a strong swing.

 

Wall walking should not use force power.

 

I don't know that I agree saber damage should be increased...I think decreasing the blocking would eliminate the scenario where I'm watching two people clash sabers for two minutes only to check and see that they haven't actually damaged each other yet.

 

Saber throwing needs to be nerfed [yes, I said nerfed]. I'm not sure exactly what purpose it is supposed to serve on a duel server...seems to me if your opponent is too far away then you should close with them...you know, to duel...with lightsabers?...a thrown saber is only going to be blocked or evaded by someone who's paying attention, and it's not like THEY can't throw theirs right back at you. The real effectiveness of the saber throw comes during mid/close combat when you're opponent starts a swing, or when they are knocked down, which I guess Doctor Shaft already stated. I'm not real clear on the best way to fix it either, but I'll just say that throwing your saber at close range against an opponent who is facing you or attacking should cost you..oh, about 30 points of damage. At least.

 

Anyhoo, there's my 2 cents.

[Doctor Shaft]

Again, thanks to those who replied. It would be great if I ever got enough people to view everyone's comments, and eventually compile some sort of change or adjustment, or patch, were they capable. In the end, all our conversation may prove useless, but I guess since I have nothing to do at the moment, I'll keep trying.

 

In response to brethnc, it's good to hear a dissenter to my ideas. I guess I'll have to do my best to address your issues. Firstly, regarding nerfing. I understand where your coming from, but these moves are not too powerful. If you implement the ghoul2 collisions, they are also blockable... pending you do not hump your opponent, as I mentioned somewhere in my gargantuan post earlier. In terms of nerfing, these are the moves that should not be nerfed. A DFA that could rotate in the air, and could still hit you to full affect while buried in the ground, and could be rotated while buried, was too abusive. A cool effect, but the move was so effective, other moves became obsolete. Solution, get rid of the rotation. In terms of power, it was never nerfed. It kept its killer ability, just eliminated its hitting potential. The ghoul 2 eliminates some of the backsweep/stab potential, and as long as you don't couple this move with the force pull problem, it's perfectly fine. And again, why would I ever use a backwards attack if the damage was not substantial? Your proposal of reducing damage would not just balance the move, it would effectively eliminate it. I believe that we should discontinue removing elements from the game. Rather, 1.03 should take what it has already, and add more. I feel increase saber damage does this effectively. You will see the spamming of the move virtually disappear once given the ability to use a more powerful, and extremely effectively light stance or medium stance multi-hit counter.

 

Also, the special moves are not the problem. How do I figure this? Put simply, we should look at the opinions of the most competitive players, namely those who play in tournaments... and win. Or those who play constantly and well... win. There are those out there who play to win. In their efforts to become the ultimate player, I have noticed that the special finishers are not at the top of the list. The medium finisher, if reduced in damage, will only prolong saber fights, or dissappear from the game, much like backsweeps would. When using a maneuver that requires a certain set up, and creates a move that goes through an entire animation and wind-up, a significant reason must be present to use it. If it proves so effective that other swings become useless, the solution is not to remove damage, because that is the significant reason for using the finisher. Rather, putting the normal swings on par by increasing their effectiveness many times is the answer. Now, I have a reason to use backsweep, because if I score, my opponent watches his head fall off, however... should I miss, with increased saber damage, those lightning fast light stance and medium stance swings will all but destroy me.

 

On to kicking. It's unfortunate that there is no defense to the kick feature. However, creating one is nigh impossible, lest you go on to create an entire melee system as well. However, while the jumping issue comes up with some players, it's been my experience that killing the jumpers is not a problem. Also, your question as to why should I ever use a normal light swing, etc. to hit a person when I have my unblockable 20 kick? Well, If we implemented a more letal, 60/70/90 system, you have a decision right there. Do I think I can sidestep my opponent quickly enough, or duck under his kick maneuver and come with the light lunge attack soon enough, to deliver that quick sixty or more? Or will I simply avoid the attack? Or will I try to beat him to the kick? There's options in this situation that are worth taking. In the current system, almost all the time, unless you're doing a backsweep or a heavy swing, the other options pale in comparison. I firmly believe that increasing saber damabe dramatically, that alone, would be a huge step towards making the game more enjoyable for players, or perhaps better said, incease the longevity of the game as the gaming community as a whole continues to grow in skill level.

 

And to end my post. I still question as to why I even bring up these topics. Comments go up saying there is a patch, and there isn't. It seems the final verdict so far is the RAven will not create a patch. On one hand, I'm disappointed, on the other hand I can understand that Raven has either tied hands, or just maybe they truly believe their current system is fine. And besides, it is their game, who are we to tell them how it should be made? Anyhoo, if this is so, who would ever be willing to compile a patch such as this, or even radically different? Is there anyone out there willing to, or capable of doing such a task? And even better -- does the community really want a patch? From what I can see, the arguing has died down, and more people are simply becoming content with what we have. I can understand that. Anyway, thanks for reading if you did, have a good day, and please reply with your comments.

[Darth Edo]

Me thinks the system is as good as it can get, but more sabre damage would create a more tactical approuch to melee battles. Less blocking i think will reduce the fun, because a wildly swinging beginner would get lots of hits...

[magis70]

Here Here!

[brethenc]

lol...I believe that's 'Hear, Hear!'

 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

 

I have never understood nerfing to be directly and exclusively related to damage. I have always understood [and seen] it to be a reduction in the effectiveness of an item or ability, though this can certainly mean reducing the damage.

 

As for the backsweeps not being too 'powerful', I guess we all have different ideas of how an ideal JK2 duel should go. The backsweeps ARE 1 hit kills, regardless of how many 'sub-hits' are in 1 hit. I like the length of most of my matches now, and I don't like the idea of being killed by 1 strong swing or 2 meduim swings. I mean, at 60/70/90, does that mean two light swings leaves me at 5 health? Swish, Swisk, Kick....gf.

 

As for why you would ever use the backsweep if it didn't kill your opponent in 1 hit [again, wondering why you should have any sort of offensive advantage when your back is to your opponent], well, I guess I think the the backswing should function in such a manner that you wouldn't want to try to turn your back on your opponent just to use it, but it might [depending on the situation] be the best option if you find your opponent behind you. And again, it seems like a matter of personal preference...I like the idea of having to land a couple of good hits to win a match...as opposed to just one.

 

As for the finishers being a little too all-purpose; I don't know if the backsweeps were on the top of the competitive players lists during 1.02...if they were, then they are on top of things. If they weren't, then it's because they were complaining about other over-powered moves they were being used at the time [DFA]...the point is, backsweeps weren't changed from 1.02 to 1.03 [per Raven, or at least from what I read in the patch notes and the other thread]. If the backstabs/sweeps are ever fixed, then players will start looking at whatever else is doing the most damage and winning the most duels. Personally, I would like to see regular swings accounting for most of the damage..if they're not, then to me that means the regular swings are just giving your finger something to do while you weave around trying to plant a special on your opponent. Which is alot of what I see know. Any of the special moves [including the backsweeps and kicks] should have a purpose...a specific circumstance where they excel. Using them at any other time [or missing] should cost you. Currently they are working in reverse...they only cost you if your opponent anticipated the move and maneuvered accordingly. I see them used far too frequently, at least for my tastes.

 

I don't think increasing the damage would make combat more 'tactical'...it would simply make it shorter. If everything was a 1 hit kill, is that the ultimate in tactical combat? First person to make a mistake loses...I wouldn't want to play like that, but I guess ultimately it's a matter of degrees and personal preference.

[magis70]

I just played on a moded server in the testing phase,saber was 50/75/100 with goul2 blocking and backstab among other specials nerfed,and it was sw33t!Saber battles were still moderatly long because of the blocking,but when you hit a guy,YOU HIT A GUY!this is the way jk2 was ment to be imo.The newbs were being smashed,which means the game has a decent learning curve now,but it was much funner and more like lightsabers should be,i took my hits too mind you,but it was still fun,we werent using glow sticks anymore.

[Lime-Light]

nah. Nerfing isnt the answer. Normal blocking should be lowered an special blocking raised.

[Dark Begger]

lime is right, nerfing is NOT the answer..get it through all of your heads. 1.02 they tried the nerfing approach, and you guys are still back complaining. So it's obviously NOT the way to go. What should happen is things should be fixed or ADDED to gameplay, making backstab/sweep less potent. How about raised normal saber swing damage? The only reason there are backstabbers right now is because they can go in and not die from a saber in their back. As for kick, it should go back to one tap (so you have to be closer to do it) right now you can be at a distance and pull it off..which creates kick lamers.

[Doctor Shaft]

Well, this 50-75-90 server certainly takes a step in the right direction. This is precisely what is needed to improve the game. I think people would be amazed how much better 1.03 is if it had higher normal saber damage and the ghoul2 collision set on as default. Granted, the ghoul2 adds a minor bit of extra lag, but if you have a decent set up, it's nothing. Also, nerfing is the worst answer. As said before, 1.02 took that approach, and the game suffered more than improved. Well, maybe getting rid of the DFA problem was a help, I don't know what I'd do if I saw a bunch of people hopping around like that all day. The complaint about hte backstab thing though is so easily fixed. I always pose the same question about what you would do after backstab were reduced in ability. And that question is: when will you ever use this move again? Nerfing it from a one hit kill is like eliminating three maneuvers, and removing an entire level of stradegy from the game. Sure, it sucks that you get it hit by it and its over, but as long as you don't use the pull-backsweep trick, it's a perfectly blockable (with ghoul2 on and as long as you don't hump your opponent), and easy to dodge or escape from. At no point does this move have ultra vacuum properties or stealth technology. This move is very readable, like any other move. In other words, it's not as super as people play it out. Sure, it's frusturating at first to fight a new player, and he scores on you constantly with backstab, but come on. Are you that unwilling to adapt to the new player style. Some people complained on another thread that saber damage too high resulted in "newbies" being able to swing recklessly and destroy people. Surprise. I don't know about you, but it seems to suck some reality into the game (as far as a game can take reality that is). Some of the most dangerous opponents or fighters ever will be the ones with no regard for their own safety, a reckless, flailiing style with tons of power behind it. That's why you always here about a martial artists of any type training to keep their mind clear, and take all opponents, even the "newbies" very seriously, because their recklessness and also unpredictability makes them incredibly dangerous. So yes, more damage, and more blocking is the solution to a much better game. I applaud if any new player utterly destroys me because all he does is backstab me when i'm not looking. That tells me that I shouldn't have been sleeping while fighting everyone else. People want a game that seems more like the movies, or a game that makes the saber function in a balanced manner, so that we can have more "jedi" like fights. Well, part of pretending to be a jedi is being aware of all the danger, not just the guy you're interested in fraggin. Respond respond respond. and have a good day.

[magis70]

correction,i dont think that server nerfed specials,i just wasent used to having goul2 on,it was great.With the 1.03 blocking,the extra saber damage doesent hardly shorten the fights much anyway,just makes it a hellof alot more realistic,when you hit someone with a lightsaber,they should be hurt bad,i mean,comon,ITS A LIGHTSABER! ITS SUPPOSED TO HURT YOU!After playing with this new damage system,i never want to go back,it was like fighting with glowing clubs before,i just diddent notice much till i got to play something different.

[derekdrygon]

Ack, the server move ate my post

 

Oh well, it was rather long anyway

 

 

 

Hitmann_D

[SteelFury]

i think all special moves should be set up so you have to have full force power to use. this would stop ppl doing the same tired move one after the other.

SteelFury.

[Areoch]

Considering I already posted up a reply to a similar thread and it seems to be going into the gutter, I'll just cut and paste my reply here for my alternative ideas on saber damage. This is from another thread so some things may not apply

 

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You know I've noticed this kind of strange phenomenon among certain people, most of you seem to actually think that people play this game for fun and enjoy good fights in which the main focus is to improve on skills rather than rant about score and such.

 

Would be nice but this is the real world and people are just not like that.

Before you lynch me for disagreeing with you let me tell you why I don't think increase damage ONLY=better games

 

Now this is just my opinion and its just based on my understanding of the game and of the players. I really wish a group of like 10 forum people would just host a server and try out every single suggestion for a day to see how thing would go instead of endlessly arguing or debating in the forums.

 

Anyway here is my debate

If you mildly increase damage (no damage gradient=1.02) People spam heavy in hopes to get a 'tip' kill, IE: do a heavy left to right swing and spin manually. Its impossible to block/avoid getting glazed by some part of the animation if your opponent is close to you and if the swing does 100 damage from start to finish there is no real reason to do anything but heavy (unless its countered by a very agile medium like in 1.02)

 

if you GREATLY increase damage to the point of every hit being either 90 or a kill people will spam light AND joust.

 

if you mildy or greatly reduce damage people will spam specials more as the Advantage vs Risk ratio tips in that if you do a special you'll get lightly nicked while your opponent is either dead or nearly dead

 

if you decrease blocking people will joust, dancing around each other doing hit and run attacks

 

if you increase blocking people will spam (but in the case of 1.03 you have them jousting still)

 

Don't give me crap about people being honorable because they are not. You can't give people powerful things because most likely someone somewhere will abuse it, changing damage values alone will just make people spam something else.

Nothing would have changed if people didn't use DFA in lieu of walking or used heavy 24/7. Some of you may have forgotten how a 1.02 NF duel went when both people were heavy only or DFA spammed. You complain about 5-10 minute duels what about the 10-25 minute ones that involved two people poking at each other with heavy too afraid to get close to each other because they don't want to take the chance of dying.

If any of you ever played JK1, the saber damage was, 30 for normal swing, 123 for secondary. Secondary was a huge bowtie that was unblockable and if you got close to it at all you took all 123 points. Spork helped but still there was always secondary spam, the system was appalling! I would seriously hate for such a thing to come into JKO.

 

My suggestions is instead of just making the damn saber hit more change the fundamentals.

 

+Decrease blocking to a 90 degree directional arc but make it a guranteed block (no knocking saber away see below for why). This way if two people face each other directly and someone does a horizontal slash they should hit the other person if he doesn't turn to look at the incoming blade. This way people will have to actually look and stay focused on their opponent to block. Encourages forward looking.

 

+More regular saber moves/combos. Everyone wants these and there is no reason not to have them. If you too lazy to animate just add some 1.02 moves to the 1.03. You could add make these available only as the last move in a combo. IE: if you do a horizontal slash after two diagonal cuts it is a different horizontal slash than just a regular one and if you can make it do more damage. These pseudo-specials would reward people for swinging the saber normally and would add some spice to combat

 

+Expand on the parry system. Ghoul2 is nice but I would rather see a system that rewards me for planning. IE: If a person does a diagonal cut going down and I see it coming, I should be able to do a diagonal cut going up in the opposite direction to parry. If it connects, knock the attacker's saber away and give me an opening. This gives me an incentive to not just turtle and block. It also encourages people to develop timing if I miss with my parry, the attacker is going to hit me with his swing before mine can hit him.

 

+x2 damage for attacks hitting from rear. This is debatable, will it make people face each other so they use forward attacks or will it make people play leapfrog over each other to hit at that juicy behind?

 

+include 1.03a fixes. Keep backstab's damage, with the feet glued to the ground its actually a very difficult manuver to pull off and you're sides are vulnerable as you can't spin to protect them

Backsweep I don't know if gluing feet to ground would stop the exploit. You may have to lower the damage. And I know this doesn't sit well with you Doctor but people should never use specials more than regular moves. If you make it do regular damage then its more of a defensive attack used only in rare occasions and with all the new moves who would miss it anyway? It did the same damage in 1.02 and noone used it because of the other moves. What would be the difference now? (And yes it did the same damage I know for a fact because I killed idle-dropped players with it as a flashy way to kill them in 1.02)

 

As the cryptic Denis Miller once said,"This is just my opinion and I could be wrong."

 

I am sorry if I sound preachy and I could just as easily wrong about damage not fixing the problem. But most of you do admit that damage alone won't make JKO into the best game ever there is a whole slew of problems and this is just the saber aspect of it.

 

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[ryudom]

lots of good things have been said here i think. anybody hear of or try the unofficial 1.04 mod/patch? i supposedly stuff ravens done but hasn't released or something. i want to know if some ones used it.

 

also i think you shouldn't be able to saber throw in duels, i mean if a jedi say a saber coming at them, they could probably just catch it. so while its good against gunners, not so against jedi. it should get knocked down every time it hits a saber or something

 

so someone tell me if they've tried out the 1.04 thing

[Areoch]

Wooo I just tried a sabermod server and had lots of fun. It wasn't slow and tactical more like fast paced crazy saber action but it was helluva fun. Maybe I was wrong about more damage thing