gonk-raider Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 THEY SHOULD tell lucasarts to release the single player code Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Hey guys, check this out as well - http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63581 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansolo Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 you say that Lucas won't "let" Raven fix the game.. but the economic reality of the situation is : that Raven can't continue to support this game unless someone PAYS them for their time. (and Lucas won't give them any more money) ..and can you BLAME them!? Raven was hired to do a job. they botched it. If I was LucasArts , I'd be pissed. in fact, if I was LucasArts , I'd sue Raven for breach of contract. (and I'd get a COURT ORDER to make Raven to support the damn game FOR FREE) ((this is NOT LucasArts' fault)) ((their "hired contractor" completely messed up the job and then just walked away with work unfinished)) ((somebody pulls that crap on me , they get sued)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 OMG - did you even read the posts in this thread? There's a direct quote from a Raven dev that he wants to continue to fix the game with patches IF LucasArts will approve of it! And of course they need money to fix patches, do you expect them to do the work for free? Do you know the exact conditions of the contract or are you just 'just talking'? Most dev and publishers tend to work together for a long time after even a few patches - look at ID and Activision. Sheesh .. if the contract was bad where they had to renegotiate for each and every patch than that's simply a really bad contract. No dev team is 100% perfect, and the Q/A (I believe) is done by LA. Are you saying there shouldn't be any new patches - because LA shouldn't spend the money? Are you saying you don't want to see the game fixed? Are you saying that LA doesn't have enough money to get the game fixed - to continue to pay Raven (if that's a part of the terms)? The game is one of their best sellers! The bottom line is: The only way Raven can continue to support and fix the game is if Lucas Arts allows them (and yes, Raven does want too) - period, finished, end of concept. Come on people - VOTE YES - and let's get this game fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonk-raider Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Who said its what lucasarts wanted in the first place you slack jawed blank. We are alittle too willing to beleave they f'ed the game and your alittle too willing to beleave that lucasarts is at fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 If you read the first couple of messages on this thread - A raven does explains that it's up to LucasArts to approve of future patches. I'm not sure what part of that is hard to understand? That makes LucasArts - 100% responsible for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 I'm saying that Raven should have done their job properly the first time. (and I'm also saying that they should not be rewarded for their apparant failure to do so) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Cobalt60 I'm saying that Raven should have done their job properly the first time. (and I'm also saying that they should not be rewarded for their apparant failure to do so) And so you have read the entire contract between LucasArts and Raven and you KNOW that they have to pay Raven again to do another patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by QuietSith If you read the first couple of messages on this thread - A raven does explains that it's up to LucasArts to approve of future patches. I'm not sure what part of that is hard to understand? That makes LucasArts - 100% responsible for the game. Gummelt ALSO admitted that the shortcomings of the 1.03 patch were a MISTAKE on Raven's part All the assfighting and backstab-exploits were the result of a miscommunication between two programmers. (that makes RAVEN 100% responsible for the game's FLAWS) ((If I was Lucas , I'd sue for reparations)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Cobalt60 Gummelt ALSO admitted that the shortcomings of the 1.03 patch were a MISTAKE on Raven's part All the assfighting and backstab-exploits were the result of a miscommunication between two programmers. ((that makes RAVEN 100% responsible for the game's FLAWS)) Either way - they need APPROVAL from LucasArts to FIX it. You really don't know if Raven is obligated to fix it or free or not. What we DO know is that Raven must get LA's APPROVAL. Again - I ask you how you KNOW that LA must pay Raven again - I'm really curious in how you know this. Also - please quote and provide the link to where Raven 'admits' this wrongdoing - thanks. Otherwise - how do you plan on getting it fixed? Please share your solution ... Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 what solution ? the 1.03 code was already approved for the Xbox and Mac versions of the game. JO is a finished product. my solution for you : wake up and smell the coffee burning dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 I guess you never play "MP" - the backstab/sweep problem is a major problem in the game. FYI - Console = SP. Enuff responding to your ignorant and disinformative troll posts. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 imagine that you are "Raven Construction" and you have been hired to build a new a swimming pool for a man named George. you dig the hole. you fill it with cement. you are 75% finished. then your time limit comes up. George comes out of the house and he tells you : "OK thats good enough dude.. the house has been SOLD 'as is' .. you can stop sweating over the details now.. in fact you don't even have to finish that last little patch of cement there.. here let me pay you for your trouble.. NOW GO AWAY" and George pays you off , and he discharges you from your contract. now SURE .. . you WANT to go back and finish your job. Afterall, you are a professional. You take pride in your work. but in the end , the home-owner has attack dogs , and he likes his swimming pool ~just fine~ the way it is (he's DEFINATELY not going to PAY YOU at this point, to come back and finish the job) (he just sold his house , and he's under an obligation to leave it just the way it is) ((<<what part do you guys NOT understand>>??)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 #1 All you have done is make speculations about the contract that exists between Raven and LucasArts - you offer no proof. #2 LucasArts STILL owns JK2 - your analogy is so bad it's not worth even going over. #3 Everytime I ask you for proof in your statements, you offer none. Stop trolling. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 the only speculation I've made is : the development contract was NOT open-ended (and the contract has been fulfilled at this point) therefore, I "speculate" that there ~IS NO~ contract that exists between the two parties at this point in time and , yes , the analogy is poor (lets change it, shall we?) Perhaps our friend George hasn't SOLD his house.. ..he's only LEASED the property to a local gay couple : "Mr.XavierBox" and his friend "Mac.N.Tosh" (better?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Knight Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 You guys are retards, if you hate LA so bad don't play the game. You complain too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twins of Doom Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 why give raven the right to the game? it's a ****ing star wars game, who knows more aobut star wars, lucasarts (a star wars company) or raven (a company) heh, just doesn't make sense does it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Cobalt60 the only speculation I've made is : the development contract was NOT open-ended (and the contract has been fulfilled at this point) therefore, I "speculate" that there ~IS NO~ contract that exists between the two parties at this point in time and , yes , the analogy is poor (lets change it, shall we?) Perhaps our friend George hasn't SOLD his house.. ..he's only LEASED the property to a local gay couple : "Mr.XavierBox" and his friend "Mac.N.Tosh" (better?) No, because the conditions of the contract are still purely speculation. I'm only basing all this on what we 'know' - based on evidence, not on pure theory and fantasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Twins of Doom why give raven the right to the game? it's a ****ing star wars game, who knows more aobut star wars, lucasarts (a star wars company) or raven (a company) heh, just doesn't make sense does it "Interview with Michael Chang Gummelt" [Raven Dev] Could you tell us a little about the development cycle of Jedi Outcast and at what time you started to code for the game? Well, I guess Activision knew we were going to do it a lot longer than most of us here at Raven did… I didn’t find out about it until January of 2001. But we were working on the Elite Force expansion pack at the time and didn’t finish that until about May. So I’d say I started work on Jedi Knight in maybe March or April of 2001, then really seriously got started in May. It was a great decision by our team, I think, to build off of all the stuff we’d done on Elite Force when making Jedi Knight II (as opposed to starting over from scratch). It made the process go much, much faster and much smoother than it would have. I firmly believe we would never have finished the game in less than a year if we hadn’t had the 2 years of work on Elite Force to build on. " http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/changkhan.php The foundation of the code was built from Raven's ST:EF game. They know the game code inside and out. You can see a lot of ST:EF in JK 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 I would think you would want Raven in more control: #1 We know Raven wants to produce another patch - that's evident from the quotes of the interview with dev. #2 We don't know what LucasArts wants. In summary, if Raven has more control, we can pretty much 'assume' there will be another patch - obviously, it's been expressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobalt60 Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by QuietSith What I don't understand is why anyone wouldn't want Raven in control. 1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place. they should not be allowed to write another patch. 2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak, which ~competes~ with JK2 (so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be) 3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff. and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone. 4) Raven has already releasd the source code , so now even "JohnQ.Public" can write a new patch for this game. therefore : 5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?) 5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 Originally posted by Cobalt60 1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place. they should not be allowed to write another patch. 2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak, which ~competes~ with JK2 (so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be) 3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff. and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone. 4) Raven has already releasd the source code , so now even "JohnQ.Public" can write a new patch for this game. therefore : 5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?) 5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again. Again, everything you are saying is purely speculation. You are accusing Raven of intentionally messing up the game? What kind of BS is that? Are you posting to get attention? Star Wars has little to do with the actual code - it's all just a Q3 engine game and ST:EF game code + Ghoul 2, etc, with Star Wars theme based sounds and models, and you don't know that any of the LucasArts programmers understand the JK 2 code. It's amazing how many disinformative troll posts you can make. Do you have anything to say that is a 'matter of fact' whatsoever? Raven CREATED the game - somethings were messed up. What part of this QUOTE do YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? "What, if anything, would you like to say about the negative reaction by a part of the community to the latest patch? I’d have to say some people have some valid points about a couple things that can be exploited and I’d love to get a few fixes out there… and some people are a bit misinformed about what the patch actually did. In the end, though, that decision is up to LucasArts, not us, so all I can do is cross my fingers with the rest of you, really." http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/changkhan.php He (Raven dev) wants to fix the game and it is up to LucasArts. You sir, are completely trolling with non-factual, purely speculative, BS, that is completely meaningless. Go away now, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted June 21, 2002 Share Posted June 21, 2002 Okay, people, let's try to calm down shall we? You've both stated your opinions, and I think it's time to agree to disagree. The simple fact is that some people liked JK2 (MP) as it was out of the box, others didn't. Yes, there were some bugs that required fixing, and in my view an obvious need for a patch...or two. However, the inherent problem with producing a patch is that invariably they don't just fix the things that need to be fixed, they tweak the gameplay according to the feedback from the community. There is always a danger in the latter in that some people like the gameplay as is, and see no need for tweaks, so when it gets tweaked, they get annoyed. From what I've seen and read so far on these forums, this is almost approaching the RUNE scenario, where the dev of that game introduced gameplay tweaks to the disconcert of some in that game's community. They can't please everyone, and frankly, nor should they try. From where I'm sitting, it makes perfect economic sense for Raven to produce the best-quality games they possibly can. If they don't, they won't sell. If they don't sell, they don't make money. It's as simple as that. It makes no sense to me that they would intentionally make a bad game. If nothing else, that hurts their reputation, and makes bad business sense. The only problem I ever saw with JKII's development, was the short development time given to the project. Given the relatively short timescale, I think Raven did an excellent job getting a relatively polished product out the door, with some very good gameplay. Also, in my experience, a developer will usually try and support their game, regardless of further payment. This has been seen many times in development teams that have been disassembled, yet still work together in their own time to make patches for games they love. Making games is a labour of love, and an art...and I can fully understand someone taking pride in their work. However, when someone else has commissioned you to develop a game, they call the shots. There has to be an agreement for you to be able to continue development in the form of patches. That means the ball is currently in Lucasarts' court...but if you put yourself in their shoes, for a moment, you'd be thinking very carefully about any further gameplay tweaks. As I stated above, gameplay tweaks can have the unfortunate side-effect of dividing the gaming community, and you end up with the version camps sniping at each other. The answer is usually to run servers with the version you like...or get used to the changes, and find ways to counter problems. Now, as has been stated, Lucasarts commissioned the game, so they own it, and make all the decisions regarding it's further development. Blaming either company for perceived shortcomings in recently released patches doesn't achieve anything. Perhaps there was an error in the creation of the latest patch, or maybe not. But as I said before, no matter what gameplay tweaks are introduced in further patches, there will always be part of the community that does not agree with them - and care should be taken when looking at feedback, or there is the potential danger of ruining the gameplay by trying to balance it to please everyone. To finish, Lucasarts is unlikely to simply hand over future development of JKII to Raven. Yes, they commissioned Raven to make the game, but it is their game...they have the license to make Star Wars products, and I would assume they will remain the only company with those rights. From that viewpoint, it would be dangerous to give full control over a product to any other third party...because you are responsible for ensuring the content matches certain criteria, including certain quality standards. That means this poll will have little impact on the relationship between Raven and Lucasarts, and the game will remain the property (and responsibility) of Lucasarts. Sorry. I've probably said enough, and that's just my personal viewpoint, based on speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 21, 2002 Author Share Posted June 21, 2002 I see your point, well taken. I always figured that server side options were the way to go - simply allow people to reverse gameplay changes that weren't exploits and cheats. However, the backstab thing - from what I can tell - doesn't divide the community - it seems that both sides (1.02 and 1.03 players) think it's a bad thing and should be patched/fixed. Otherwise yes, it's very difficult to release patches - though much easier if they simply give us a whole load of cvars (that report to master servers) and let the community decide on the options. My last post for awhile - thank you for responding moderator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.