I'm writing back and forth to a LucasArts Rep ...

[QuietSith]

I got a response from Mr. Tom Sarris.

 

He wanted a better explanation about the MP backstab/assfighting problem and the link I see sent him (see below).

 

I'm sharing with you guys what I wrote to him and CC'ed to other Raven Devs so that everyone knows what I'm writing to him:

 

This is a long email but please read the whole thing - very much appreciated:

 

In regards to the poll - thread (I am QuietSith as well):

 

http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62221

 

(You must register to read it)

 

There are just a few problems Jedi Knight 2 Outcast Multiplayer.

 

The very biggest and highest priority issue is the following:

 

Basically - there is an exploit in the game.

 

Instead of saber fighting with two people facing each other - a person can run around backwards and instantly kill another player.

 

Excuse the language it's been named "assfighting".

 

So if you join a JK 2 game server - and you spectate the top score players - you'll notice they run around backward all the time because the 'backstab' is THE most powerful move in the game.

 

The exploit is worse if someone kicks a person over and/or force pulls the person - essentially knocking them person down, and turns around in 'heavy stance' and does a 'backstab' - it's an instant kill.

 

So basically you see a bunch of people doing two things:

 

1. Running around backwards - known as 'assfighting'.

 

2. Pulling or kicking people over, turning around (back facing the enemy) and backstabbing them with strong saber stance (known as heavy or red stance).

 

This is a MAJOR problem in the game and has been discussed endlessly in endless threads at the 'lucasforums' for Jedi Knight 2.

 

Raven appears to want to fix it (as you have read with the quotes in that thread), but LucasArts doesn't 'seem' to want to support the game anymore or allow Raven to make anymore more patches. That's very sad.

 

We all really love and trust Raven - I believe I speak for a majority of gamers.

 

The poll in the thread was to see if people want Raven to have more power to fix the game - hence the name of the poll:

 

" LucasArts - Let Raven Takeover JK 2 For PC"

 

So far:

 

Yes, Raven rocks and they should have the power! = 91.30% (84 votes) - Yes

 

No, LucasArts is doing just fine controlling it = 8.70% (8 votes) - No

 

So it looks like a good sample that represents the diehard gaming section of the JK 2 community would like to see Raven have more control and be allowed to fix the game.

 

I suggest you give JK 2 multiplayer a try sometime and check out exactly what I'm talking about:

 

Spectate some MP games that have a lot of activity - spectate the top score players, and you will see them using those exact exploits - it really hurts the fun factor in the game.

 

BTW - Aside from this exploit - JK2 is probably one of the best multiplayer games ever made for PC since Quake 1. =)

 

I just saw your name on some web sites, and I wanted to write a person who works in the higher areas of LA to let everyone know we wish that LucasArts would give Raven the 'go ahead' to keep working on of the best game that ever existed - that being JK 2 Outcast. =)

 

I like many others just love this game - it's the best Star Wars game ever made - and one the best, if not the best, online multiplayer experiences ever created. The big site and personal reviews just can't get enough of this game - it's truly a masterpiece in gaming history.

 

Please forward this to others that you know who may have interest in this as well.

 

I really appreciate your time in reading my e-mail and giving this all some consideration.

 

If LucasArts continues to support JK 2 for PC - I can guarantee you that many people like myself (and there are a lot of us) will continue to have faith in L.A.'s game production - and we already know how great Raven is. Please restore the faith - or I should say "force". =)

 

I personally look forward each night to playing on servers (where the admin kicks 'assfighters') for a few hours and having fun saber fighting.

 

If LucasArts lets Raven continue to fix the game - you will gain an even bigger following and bigger and better reputation than you did at first release and after the recent patch - I can pretty much guarantee that.

 

Sincerely,

 

(My real full name here)

 

C.C. Raven Dev People

[striderx2048]

does LA have to pay for patches?

[QuietSith]

That's a really good question - I wonder how that contract works?

 

It's probably so secretive we'll never know.

 

They have to pay for the Xbox and GC version of the game.

 

Aren't those versions going to use the Q3 engine still?

 

Aren't they just simply ports?

 

I wonder who is doing the actual conversions - I take it the Xbox one is probably very simple, since the Xbox is basically a console "PC".

[Raven_Xwing]

Good letter dude, you got to the point without being rude!

One point I wish you brought up isthe sound/ Freeze issue that caused the game to lockup {me included} I know there are at least 500 responses in the help section of the forum about that.

Again nice job!

[QuietSith]

Cool, yah I'm just trying to get our foot in the door for fixes and perhaps after that we can put in a list and stuff.

 

What kind sound card, OS, etc are you running?

[Cobalt60]

1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place.

they should not be allowed to write another patch.

 

2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak,

which ~competes~ with JK2

(so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be)

 

3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff.

and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone.

 

4) Raven has already releasd the source code ,

so now even "JohnQ.Public" can write a new patch for this game.

 

 

 

 

 

therefore :

 

5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?)

 

5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again.

[Lime-Light]

Um....I dont see the logic in that. Why in hell would Raven want to make JK suck, just to make SOF2 look better? They both speak for Raven's talent. They get money from both, and they are both in the top ten in unit sales. And name me one good in-house LA title from that last 2 years that hasent sucked sh*t.

 

What you say makes no sense whatsoever.

[QuietSith]

I know and this guy is following my threads and completely trolling and making flaming remarks against Raven.

 

Sigh, I wish an admin would stop him.

 

This is getting extremely annoying.

 

[QuietSith]

And I'm not bashing LA or anything.

 

I'm merely asking in my poll if LA should give Raven more control over the game.

 

It seems from the interview with Raven dev, if that were the case, we'd be seeing more fixes and patches.

 

Sigh ...

[Cobalt60]

Raven disabled 'ghoul2' in their v1.03 patch,

in an attempt to "fix the game"

 

(what else would you like them to disable for you?)

(maybe you should make them a list)

[QuietSith]

Raven MADE Ghoul 2 ...

 

Sheesh...

 

We need an admin here. Help!

[Cobalt60]

ya and I PAID for it when I bought JK2.

 

 

(you really don't get it , do you?)

[QuietSith]

Wow, you're so full of disinformation, it's simply staggering.

 

Run a 1.02 server and type:

 

g_saberghoul2collision

 

Wow nothing!

 

Now run a 1.03 server and type:

 

g_saberghoul2collision

 

Wow - you can TURN IT ON OR OFF!

 

Maybe they ADDED Ghoul 2 as an OPTION?

 

NOWHERE in the readme does it mention disabling Ghoul 2:

 

And I quote:

 

"##############################################################

 

Star Wars® Jedi Knight® II: Jedi Outcast Update ReadMe

Version 1.03

5/06/2002

 

##############################################################

 

Thank you for downloading the Jedi Outcast Update. This

readme includes instructions on how to install this update as

well as information on what was addressed in this update. If

you are experiencing any issues that are not fixed by this

update, please check the Troubleshooting Guide which is

included on the Jedi Outcast CD. You can access this through

the game's launcher.

 

The use of this update is pursuant to the Software License

Limited Warranty found in the manual of the game.

 

This update is compatible with your saved games.

 

All Multiplayer users must use Jedi Outcast version 1.03.

 

Instructions for Installing the Jedi Outcast Update

---------------------------------------------------

After downloading the update, double click on JKIIUpdate.exe

to install. The installer will automatically search for the

folder where you originally installed Jedi Outcast and install

all of the updates. If the update does not locate Jedi Outcast

on your system, you may need to reinstall the game from the

original CD and then run the JKIIUpdate.exe

 

This update for the game has been modified to:

---------------------------------------------

* Provide EAX® 3.0 and OpenAL support. To enable these options,

you will need to enable 3D Sound in the Sound Setup menu.

NOTE: At the time of release of this update, EAX 3.0 is only

supported on the Creative Labs Inc. SoundBlaster® Audigy

and Extigy sound cards.

 

NOTE: This feature is not supported on Aureal® Vortex and

Vortex 2 sound cards. Enabling this feature with a card with

one of these chipsets may cause the game to lock up.

 

Multiplayer:

-----------

* Include 4 new Multiplayer Duel levels, which support BOTs.

* The new levels are:

duel_bespin, duel_temple, duel_hangar, and duel_training

 

Single Player:

-------------

* Provide Force Feedback mouse support.

* Provide limited Force Feedback support for joysticks.

NOTE: Force Feedback joystick effect is not fully supported

in this update.

 

Corrects various gameplay issues, including:

-------------------------------------------

Multiplayer:

-----------

* Corrects an issue where players were unable to cycle to

detonator packs and trip mines on the “explosives” key

unless they also had Thermal Detonators.

* Corrects an issue that prevented launching a multiplayer

game on AMD dual processor machines

* Corrected an exploit to prevent players from using illegal

models in the game.

* Corrected an exploit that allowed players to have force

powers outside of what the server rules allow.

* Added a keyboard icon that appears over the player's head

when the player is chatting or configuring force powers.

* Backflip now requires that you double tap the jump button.

* Lightsaber usage in multiplayer has been modified to work

similarly to the way it works in single player levels. This

will enable better saber battles up close with your opponent.

* Lightsabers will do less damage at the very start and very

end of a swing. This should prevent kills from just touching

an opponent with the tip of your lightsaber.

* Other players will not see the glow from a player using force

absorb until they are attacked.

* Force Heal and Force Drain have been adjusted to require more

force energy to use them.

* Corrected an issue that prevent lightsaber locking from

occurring in duels even if it was enabled by the server.

* Correct various Duel mode issues, including:

* Reconfiguring force powers will not place your player at

bottom of queue.

* If one player leaves during a match when dueling with more

than 1 kill limit, the next person in line will not enter

the match with the score of the person who left the match

* Changing skins will no longer produce a loss score on HUD

that includes fraglimit

 

Single Player:

-------------

* Corrected an issue that would cause the third AT-ST on

Artus_Topside to disappear that prevented Jan from landing.

* Corrected an issue that caused enemies not to be alerted by

the body of a comrade in their field of vision.

* Corrected an issue where enemies did not try to avoid

thermal detonators that were thrown at them

* Corrected an issue that would cause the player to be unable

to attack for about thirty seconds if they were force pushed

out of a saberlock

 

##############################################################

 

© 2002 LucasArts Entertainment Company LLC.

© 2002 Lucasfilm Ltd. & TM or ® as indicated.

All rights reserved. Used under authorization.

LucasArts and the LucasArts logo are trademarks

of Lucasfilm Ltd.

 

##############################################################"

 

Do they mention removing Ghoul 2 at all?

 

Where do you get this 'information'?

 

Your trolling is beyond belief.

 

I should be happy though, you are bumping my threads.

 

It seems you just make things up to get attention - but I guess it is working, eh?

[StormHammer]

Originally posted by Cobalt60

1) Raven screwed up the game in the first place.

they should not be allowed to write another patch.

 

I disagree. I think they delivered a very good game, which unfortunately contained some bugs, and required a little tweaking. The problem usually arises when a developer listens to too much game feedback, and tries to fix it to suit everyone. Some people were happy with MP as it was. Others weren't...and there will always be people who disagree.

 

2) Raven has a product (SoF2) on the shelf right now, as we speak,

which ~competes~ with JK2

(so Raven has a financial incentive, to make JK2 as ~bad~ as it can possibly be)

 

I've answered this in the other thread. It makes no economic sense whatever for Raven to make a bad game, because if it doesn't sell, they don't make money, and it hurts their reputation as a game developer.

 

3) LucasArts Entertainment has competent programmers of their own, on their own staff.

and they know Star Wars better than .. well.. anyone.

 

True...but from where I'm sitting they commisioned Raven in the first place because I don't think they had the necessary level of FPS talent available at the time to make a high-quality game. Raven is a high-quality game developer specialised in FPS titles, and based on their work on Heretic II, they were a natural choice for making JKII. That's just IMHO.

 

5) LucasArts should develop the next patch ~THEMSELVES~ (who needs Raven?)

 

The problem arises in that Lucasarts has not specialised in that particular game engine. Raven has, and probably know it inside-out by now. It makes sense for Raven, as the developer, to produce any further patches, because they are 100 per cent familiar with the game code.

 

5b) Raven should never be allowed to mess with this game again.

 

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, simply restating your case in this thread (word for word) accomplishes little. As I said in the other thread, Cobalt60 and QuietSith you should just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Sniping at each other does neither of you any favours.

[Chastan]

Good work, QuietSith.

 

Are you getting responses from LA? Just curious, you don't need to post them I just want to know if they are listening. In my experience LA has always been a good company, I have faith in them.

[Hirogen]

Originally posted by QuietSith

The exploit is worse if someone kicks a person over and/or force pulls the person - essentially knocking them person down, and turns around in 'heavy stance' and does a 'backstab' - it's an instant kill.

 

So basically you see a bunch of people doing two things:

 

1. Running around backwards - known as 'assfighting'.

 

2. Pulling or kicking people over, turning around (back facing the enemy) and backstabbing them with strong saber stance (known as heavy or red stance).

 

You fail to mention blue stance backstab, is a different move to yellow and purple. Im not saying its a bad thing that folk take it upon themselves to essentially represent players when contacting official peeps but leaving out key areas of concern kinda defeats the purpose. Ive mentioned this before in another thread but a player can maintain absorb indefinately. Half fixing a problem is not a solution even if Raven/LA did give a sh1t. Its also true that having all players happy wth every aspect of the game is highly unlikely but if you are trying to fix main probs then in my opinion Absorb needs to be dealt with. Being new to the game probably makes my opinion redundant to most readers but as a fresh perspective - Absorb needs to be fixed.

[MrYepp]

I know this is for a good cause but....... people who are pushing for a new patch to remove cheap styles/moves are fighting a losing battle. You want to kill as many people in FFA or duels or TFFA, etc, in the least time possible, so moves that can deal good damage or even kill in one shot are going to be used, next thing you know after you remove dangerous backstabs, the medium stance inverted chop's gonna be whored, then come the kicks, then lunges..... its a never ending list, until we finally get to a game where we whack at each other with those "Sock 'em Boppers" things which deal 0.000000000000000000000001 damage because the last move, which died 0.0000001 damage was whored too much.

[JaledDur]

Its not a matter of removing the moves that do massive damage. Its about either making them blockable or at the very least, making them not look stupid. If I'm going to be chopped to ribbons by someone at least don't make my last sight be his big Jedi ass.

[Chewie Bakker]

Once again, the problem's not the move but the way it's used.

 

Perhaps restricting the amount that you can turn and still perform a backstab would solve the pull & backstab problem, but not the "assfighting one." Either that or upping Pushes ability to counter pull.

 

But then again, most people are complaining about the use of this in FFA. What does FFA stand for again?

 

The Force will be with you, always.

[D.L.]

FFA == Free For All

 

CTF == Capture the Flag

[Pear]

Originally posted by Cobalt60

Raven disabled 'ghoul2' in their v1.03 patch,

in an attempt to "fix the game"

 

(what else would you like them to disable for you?)

(maybe you should make them a list)

 

Ghoul2 is the whole animation and model system. Ghoul2 collision wasn't even IN 1.02 - it was added in 1.03.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Hirogen

 

You fail to mention blue stance backstab, is a different move to yellow and purple. Im not saying its a bad thing that folk take it upon themselves to essentially represent players when contacting official peeps but leaving out key areas of concern kinda defeats the purpose. Ive mentioned this before in another thread but a player can maintain absorb indefinately. Half fixing a problem is not a solution even if Raven/LA did give a sh1t. Its also true that having all players happy wth every aspect of the game is highly unlikely but if you are trying to fix main probs then in my opinion Absorb needs to be dealt with. Being new to the game probably makes my opinion redundant to most readers but as a fresh perspective - Absorb needs to be fixed.

 

#1 It's a way to get their attention - I'm sure if/when Raven does take more control they'll fix more than just the one thing I mentioned.

 

#2 You are welcome to do this yourself.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by JaledDur

Its not a matter of removing the moves that do massive damage. Its about either making them blockable or at the very least, making them not look stupid. If I'm going to be chopped to ribbons by someone at least don't make my last sight be his big Jedi ass.

 

Haha exactly.

 

It's bad enough to have it as an exploit, but the whole running backwards thing is just silly.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by MrYepp

I know this is for a good cause but....... people who are pushing for a new patch to remove cheap styles/moves are fighting a losing battle. You want to kill as many people in FFA or duels or TFFA, etc, in the least time possible, so moves that can deal good damage or even kill in one shot are going to be used, next thing you know after you remove dangerous backstabs, the medium stance inverted chop's gonna be whored, then come the kicks, then lunges..... its a never ending list, until we finally get to a game where we whack at each other with those "Sock 'em Boppers" things which deal 0.000000000000000000000001 damage because the last move, which died 0.0000001 damage was whored too much.

 

Well, it's just the assfighting that is really silly.

 

That's like playing a car racing game and finding out that driving backwards is faster than forward so everyone starts going backwards and using rear view mirrors. Just looks dumb, doesn't it?

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Chastan

Good work, QuietSith.

 

Are you getting responses from LA? Just curious, you don't need to post them I just want to know if they are listening. In my experience LA has always been a good company, I have faith in them.

 

Yah the guy I'm writing to just wanted a more clear explanation.

 

I'm not going to list all the problems people have encountered - just the biggest one - that's the foot in the door method - the other stuff can come when Raven is given permission to work on the game again.

 

I'll post in this thread if I read anything new - probably not direct quotes, just summaries.