Why Assfighting Hurts The Game...

[QuietSith]

What if your saber was curved and not straight?

 

What if guns only fired every other 5 seconds?

 

What if jumped caused you to take damage when landing?

 

There are issues beyond just simply cause and effect - there are issues of 'suspense of disbelief'.

 

Assfighting takes away the 'real feel' of the game.

 

Here's an analogy in another post I made:

 

What if you bought the best car racing game ever made and you were overjoyed.

 

But someone realized you can actually go faster driving backwards.

 

So suddenly a bunch of people on the server are driving really fast backwards with their rear view mirrors - ramming other people's front ends (because the front end of the car is the most vulnerable).

 

Doesn't it simply look stupid?

 

Would it make the car racing game feel less real - would it effect the suspension of disbelief?

 

An example use of the phrase for games:

 

http://home.mira.net/~tosh/tips/suspensionofdisbelief.htm

[QuietSith]

I meant to say on the last one "I can live with it or without it".

 

If an admin sees this, please fix it, if you can, thank you.

[Yoda_623]

All very good points QuietSith. Very well written reply.

[Kurgan]

I think the only thing that really hurts this game is whining, but only if you let it...

 

 

Incidentally, the "running backwards same speed as running forwards" issue is present in MANY FPS (and other) games. I figure enough gamers have gotten used to it, so it shouldn't be a problem for most players. There's plenty of unrealistic stuff in games, like the fact that you almost never get tired, you can hold all those weapons, never need to eat or go to the bathroom and can still walk after getting shot in the chest with a gun or blasted with a bomb.

 

Realism in action-games is almost never fun (anybody still play "Tresspasser" ?). Try one hit kills from everything. Try only being able to squeeze off a couple of shots before reloading. Try having your weapons jam, misfire and break down on you, and having to be regularly cleaned and maintainenced. Try having to TRAIN to use everything or being horrible with it. Try having to OBEY orders instead of doing everything yourself all the time. Try moving VERY slowly, and dying (easily) and having to stay dead.

 

The initial attraction for many people to the genre was the feeling of "being Rambo" not being a real soldier in a real war. Heck, simulating energy sword fighting and telekinesis with a mouse and keyboard is even more unrealistic and farther removed from the "real thing" (if such a thing could figuratively exist). Even RPG's are far from realistic, with their turn based fighting, cliches and endless stats building. I can suspend disbelief playing Pac-Man, Quake3, Midtown Madness, Phantasy Star, or Tomb Raider 3, why is it so much harder to suspend disbelief playing JK2? You already have to suspend disbelief watching the films and books its based on!

 

When "America's Army" comes out, we'll see how far they push the realism aspect. But in this case too, I suspect the desire will be to act as a recruiting tool for the US Army, not as a tool that will turn you into a real soldier or in any way substitute for actual basic training.

[Orangina_Rouge]

Assfighting is a symptom of another much GREATER problem

 

The totally insane Blockin ( even with sabertrace = 0 ) that makes fights lasts for several minutes and involves more luck than pure skill

 

It blocks from all angles, even when u show your @ss ( wich if your opponent use a gun or throw results in you being hit ) and makes saber not really efficient compared to other weapons

Sure in duels it seems fun, but the more u play with the actual system the more boring it is

 

So removing backstab will just make saber fights even slower and finish to dig JK 2 s grave with boredom

 

What need to be dealt with is the Saber system itself

Let it be more than 1.02 with better blockin when u don t swing but ONLY if u face your opponent, coz honestly if u attack u should not be able to defend

 

That should be the first step to restore some fun to this game ( other being tweak some force powers ..but that s another story )

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Orangina_Rouge

[What need to be dealt with is the Saber system itself

Let it be more than 1.02 with better blockin when u don t swing but ONLY if u face your opponent, coz honestly if u attack u should not be able to defend

 

That should be the first step to restore some fun to this game ( other being tweak some force powers ..but that s another story ) [/b]

 

You might like the JK 2 ++ mod:

 

http://dev.wdonline.com/jk2pp/#changed

 

^1[WD]^7 JK2++ Beta 2

 

146.20.43.203:28070

 

Try it out with a couple of friends.

[Cal-Gon Gin]

Well put Kurgan.

 

Folks, instead of complaining about ass fighting, learn how to counter it--its really not hard. Then you'll have tons of free frags.

[QuietSith]

Admin or not, I disagree.

 

I think if something hurts the game it should be fixed, period.

 

That's saying if someone learned how to instant respawn a BFG in Quake 3 - you should simply do it too.

 

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

[QuietSith]

Originally posted by Kurgan

I think the only thing that really hurts this game is whining, but only if you let it...

 

 

Incidentally, the "running backwards same speed as running forwards" issue is present in MANY FPS (and other) games. I figure enough gamers have gotten used to it, so it shouldn't be a problem for most players. There's plenty of unrealistic stuff in games, like the fact that you almost never get tired, you can hold all those weapons, never need to eat or go to the bathroom and can still walk after getting shot in the chest with a gun or blasted with a bomb.

 

You aren't following the analogy correctly - what I was saying if you could drive faster backwards - which essentially is what assfighting is - fighting better backwards.

[Homosexual Ewok]

It does not hurt the game; it hurts (kills) the people who are too lazy to devote all of 60 seconds to paying attention to the players who do not get hit with back stabs constantly.

 

Getting killed leads to frustration.

Frustration leads to anger.

Anger leads to either complaining about it or learning how to avoid it.

I know what side I chose…

 

Quiet, have you ever played Quake 1 2 or 3?

 

What does every single player do in any of those games?

 

Run for the rocket launcher; grab the rocket launcher, Spam rockets at your feet.

 

99.9999% of all players do that, have done that, and will do that in Quake 4.

Has that ruined the Quake franchise?

Nope, because anyone who has played for more than 10 minutes catches on to the fact that, although it is a powerful tactic, it is not unstoppable.

 

The same goes for the back stab.

 

I mean how many of these attention starved "THE CATASTROPHIC DEATH OF THE JEDI OUTCAST FRANCHISE!" threads and polls are you going to make before you just learn to be a man and roll with the punches?

 

If someone kicks you to death are you going to send off 90 million e-mails begging for a patch because it is unfair that another player beat you in a way you did not feel to be proper?

[Cal-Gon Gin]

Originally posted by QuietSith

Admin or not, I disagree.

 

I think if something hurts the game it should be fixed, period.

 

That's saying if someone learned how to instant respawn a BFG in Quake 3 - you should simply do it too.

 

 

I don't think ass fighting is the same situation. If a server instant respawns a BFG I just won't go to it (I rarely play on maps with BFGs anyway, being a CPM player). If a person does (and it would have to be via a code modification) then its a hack. Backstabs are actually part of the game.

 

And they're still not that hard to avoid. I find that avoiding them is one of the more interesting parts of fighting, because you have to focus on what is going on and anticipate its being set up.

 

Let me give you an example from real fencing. There is an move called the fleche, where a person makes a sudden, explosive three step charge (or complete run by) towards their opponent. Against new fencers this move *always* works, but against experienced, A-carded fencers this move *always* leads to them scoring a touch against the flecher, UNLESS it comes unexpectedly. Thus, fencing between newbs is a fairly predictable bunch of fleches (and dangerous incidents where BOTH fleche at the same time) after they learn how to do it--because it is a move with a high degree of success. A newb who does nothing but fleche an experienced fencer will lose in short order. Fencing between experienced fencers, on the other hand, is a series of high tension move-countermove *twitches* that can last for quite a while until one finally gets what they percieve as an opening, when they fully commit to an action. Its extremely entertaining to watch if you know what to look for.

 

(And there is nothing quite like scoring a touche to your opponent's wrist so lightly they complain to the judge that they weren't hit--really throws them off their game )

 

Again, learn to counter these move like the backstab or DFA and you will continue your skills growth as a JKII gamer. Don't emasculate the game because you're frustrated right now.

[QuietSith]

The votes are speaking for themselves.

[Lime-Light]

I dont like assfighting, it is unbalanced, but mostly I hate it because I just cant stand some ass hole newb running around with his ass in my face, while im already on the other side of the field. Its ridicculous. And then theres the occasdion, where in the midst of wasting this exploiting little lamer he actually catches me with it, and I instantly go from 100/20+ to death, so he wins with 20 hp, laughs and says: "hahahah u suck fag"

 

Then I backstab the bastard in vengeance, and he calls me a cheap fag becuase I'm better at it than him.

 

This has happened numerous times to me, and although I dont like to complain (and havent for the duration of the 1.03 patch so far) I cant ****ing stand it.

 

B/S, assfighting does nothing but detract from the gameplay, its not fun for the victim (duh) and I'm pretty sure you have to be one bored-ass dickhead to assfight yourself, or a newb.

[QuietSith]

Good news I'm going to be renting out a 10 player server.

 

If you assfight or act like a lamer - you get 3 warnings:

 

Warning # 1.

 

Someone tells you to stop.

 

Warning # 2.

 

You get kicked or various things may happen (see mod below)

 

Warning # 3. Your IP gets banned

 

The mod I'll be running is this one:

 

http://vulcanus.its.tudelft.nl/mars/jk2/mod/

 

I will also be running a lot of the great custom maps you see at JK2 Files - and I'll list which ones you need to download.

[Lime-Light]

Yeesh, arent we a control freak .

 

Sounds cool though, as long as you dont go messing with poeple for no reason. Your rules I guess though.

[QuietSith]

I'd put somewhere in the name of the server or MOTD .. no assfighting or you get kicked, etc.

 

That's basically the only pet peeve - but trust me you'll love the server. I'll pack it with skins and custom maps so everyone play with them and use them.

 

It'll rock.

 

It'll be only 10 players max but you should get great FPS that way.

 

[Cal-Gon Gin]

Originally posted by QuietSith

The votes are speaking for themselves.

 

What, that readers of these boards hate the backstab? Big news there

 

I stand by my words. You are free to disagree with them, but I'm still right

[SaberPro]

I say the so-called "assfighting" makes the game less realistic because you just don't see any random Jedi nor Sith running backward trying to get a backstab/backsweep outta himself and twirls at 10000 RPM (faster than most HD, yes) when he does.

 

Then if the entire server fights like that, I don't think scoring is really that important anymore. It'd be like who's luckier and gets the backstab/backsweep out.

 

That's all I gotta say about that.

[Homosexual Ewok]

Those who cry always make the most noise...

[Lime-Light]

....and

[Reverse]

If you dont like an aspect of the game, or if there is something about the game that is taking away the fun, you are not forced to play that game, but don't dictate to the people the made this game ordering them to fix one tiny thing. That hurts the community more then the people that spam backstab. There are ways to counter backstabers, run backwards throwing your saber at the defenceless back, or just run around them. If you aren't having fun, don't play, easy as that.

[Blamer]

The problem is not the people who run backwards, any player with some experience can defeat them without much of a problem.

 

All the "counter strategies" I've read assume the assfighter sucks or is in general of a lower skill than the poster -- this is typical considering the inflated egos you'll run into on these forums. "Drain him before he pulls you. Use absorb. Kick him while he runs backward at you because he's a skilless loser."

 

These are not counters. You must assume, when devising a reliable strategy, that the adversary is either of equal or greater skill level than yourself.

 

Therefore discussion of Force powers becomes generally irrelevant. Drain is no more reliable than any other move, especially if you get drained first. Absorb is audible, he can use it too (maybe *gasp* better than you can), and he can still wait for your mana to run out. This does not solve the problem of countering the actual move. By all means, use drain, absorb, or whatever else to prevent a pull-backstab combo. If you are a superior player, these will even give you the advantage. But these in of themselves will not defeat a determined backstabber.

 

No reasonable player will present his unguarded rear end to you until he knows he can chop you down. Good players know how to avoid kicks and DFA. I've DFAed at numerous backsweepers only to die in midair after he rotated himself at me, that's not a counter at all.

 

Backsweep and backstab deliver an extraordinary amount of damage with remarkably low risk. The ratio of benefit over risk is greater than any move since 1.02 DFA, which was bugged and fixed in the patch. The only other move that does close to as much damage in 1.03 is the medium finisher, which 1) is difficult to execute, 2) is difficult to hit with and 3) holds a risk for the player during the recovery time. Backsweep carries none of these stigmas. You can run from it, but that means you'll never hurt him. You can try to hurt him, but he will rotate and gouge you with the end of the swing. The backsweeper can easily kill an attacking foe throughout the entirety of the recovery time.

 

It's not that hard to see the problem here, folks. All that has to be done is cut out the rotating (as was done with DFA) and bring the damage into line with 1.03 rules: that is, the swing only does maximum damage during the middle, the "meat," the "follow-through" of the swing. This will introduce counter moves that ARE reliable against a BSer who knows what he's doing. The reason that backstab is not as much of an issue as backsweep is because there IS a recovery period, however short, where the player twists his lightsaber to face forward again and can neither deal or prevent damage. However, it should be subject to the same fixes as backsweep.

 

Can you slash a backstabber or backsweeper in the middle of his move? Yes, I've done it, I've gotten kills that way too. But only if he fails to rotate and kill you first, which most players will do instinctively. The power of life and death, then, was held entirely in the hands of the BSer. THIS is what people mean when they say they have found the game to be unbalanced.

 

Maximum damage can remain the same, but I personally would also like to see the damage of other saber moves raised somewhat. I'm talking 40/60/80 for the stances, or maybe 50/65/80. However, that doesn't have to do with this thread.

 

The Quake analogy is bogus. A decent shotgunner stands no chance against a decent player with the RL, but neither of them spawned with all the weapons and had infinite ammo for all of them. Competing for control of the weapons and the map is also part of the game. A better comparison would be if the single barred shotgun had a 1-hit kill secondary fire with no drawback.

 

I find the fencing example to be irrelevant, perhaps applying more to the 1.03 DFA than anything else. I know little about formal fencing, but I do know that no one in real life rotates 360 degrees in a second with their feet planted and that we do not all have a series of pre-defined swings with pre-defined damage and defense penetration values that we activate with a mouse and keyboard. Neither can you autoblock everything by standing around and holding the foil in front of your face. Also, if a hit from a backsweep counted for exactly the same thing as a grazing blow from a light stance swing, we wouldn't have a problem; no, I take that back, we would all be holding down shift and attack with light stance on.

 

Let me use another example. Empire Earth is one of the most balanced games I've ever played, and this is really saying something for the number of units and options it gives you. By balanced, I don't mean that all units and strategies are equally as powerful -- this is certainly not the case. It is simply that there is no one unit combination or strategy that renders all others obsolete. Sword cavalry are great against archers and gun infantry, but are easily cut down by spear infantry and gun cavalry. Spear infantry die to archers and gun cavalry (usually) die to gun infantry. Tanks are powerful, but will fail against AT guns or bazookas, which in turn are easily destroyed by conventional infantry, who are slaughtered by tanks.

 

However, sometimes this balance system doesn't entirely hold, especially in Deathmatch when unit cost becomes a majorly decreased factor in play.

 

In Dark Age deathmatch, a combo of Pikemen and Trebuchets can defeat any other combo. Trebuchets do a great deal of damage over a long range, and many units (especially archers, the counter to pikemen) are too slow to evade their projectiles. The units that do get through (mostly sword cavalry) are finished by the pikemen. This is not unbeatable, but to beat this I have to either 1) majorly surpass him in resource production or 2) trick him into not using his units properly, which is difficult since his trebuchets have a longer range than any other unit and he only has two unit types to worry about. Or, I can just use the same combo, which is what ends up happening and why most serious players have abandoned Dark Age DM.

 

In the Industrial Age, the strongest combo is similar: Bombard Cannons and Dragoons (gun cavalry). Bombard Cannons outrange every other unit and are even deadlier against slow infantry because they do splash damage, killing many units in one hit. Sword cavalry that gets through is quickly killed by the Dragoons. Dragoons on the other team must stop to fire at a distance, making them prey to the bombard cannons. Also, the bombard cannons do not require any of the resources needed for Dragoons, which in theory might be able to defeat the combo with superior numbers. So, he will be able to make as many Dragoons as you can. Again, it ends up as Dragoons and Bombards vs. Dragoons and Bombards, eliminating much of the suspense and fun factor of the game.

 

These combos, like the offending backstab and backsweep, offer more power than any other strategy without any particular risk. There is a long, long distance between being able to defeat these strategies and actually doing it against a skilled player.

 

I know people are going to reply and rehash that backsweep and backstab are fine because they've killed people before who use the moves, or they can avoid them (which harms neither player at all). This is missing the point entirely. When performing the backsweep, and to a lesser extent with the backstab, it puts all the power in the BSer's hands. You can win if the other player gets in the way, draw out the match with no consequence if he runs away, or lose -- but only if you fail to exploit the backsweep's ability to defeat any counterattack. What decides the end of the match, then, is really just a backsweeper's ability to backsweep well. This is not always the case when human error is introduced, but that does not excuse the system.

[Cal-Gon Gin]

"I find the fencing example to be irrelevant, perhaps applying more to the 1.03 DFA than anything else. I know little about formal fencing, but I do know that no one in real life rotates 360 degrees in a second with their feet planted and that we do not all have a series of pre-defined swings with pre-defined damage and defense penetration values that we activate with a mouse and keyboard. Neither can you autoblock everything by standing around and holding the foil in front of your face. Also, if a hit from a backsweep counted for exactly the same thing as a grazing blow from a light stance swing, we wouldn't have a problem; no, I take that back, we would all be holding down shift and attack with light stance on."

 

The fencing example was simply to demonstrate that newbs find something that works and spam it, but skill overpowers that single move and the spammer then needs to find something else to do to counter the counter or always lose. Thats all--the analogy stops there. Spinning 360 on the piste would get you carded--you can only move forward or back.

 

The backstab is supposed to be a surprise/desperation move and so lessened blocking is appropriate. But my god, just throw the crap out of the ass fighter as they run towards you!

[SeraphimII]

Ok...

 

 

 

Yes backstabs are annoying, but they can be easily counted to any player with a fair amount of skill. Sadly backstabs are still hurting the game. Why? Not everyone can counter backstabs so they either quit because its so frustrating to them or they become mindless backstabers themselfs. It might not hurt the ffa games as those are just kill them all with speratic duels, the ctf which is maining focused on capturing the flag, but the dueling servers are the ones really being hurt by this.

 

It needs to be fixed. I say reduce the damage to about 50 and/or allow it to be blocked. I'd really just be fine with the reducing the damage part, but it could be a good idea to allow it to be blocked because it completly kill the people running backwards.

[Blamer]

Okay, I understand more what you're talking about with the fencing example, sorry if it seemed like I went out of my way to attack it. My point still holds, however.

 

Your post allows me to elaborate more on something that I think I didn't explain enough. Saber throw will hurt a BSer, yes. However, this is not available in all gameplay situations, whereas the backsweep and backstab are. Also, there is a cost associated with the move in terms of mana. When you saber throw a backsweeper, you are exercising either 1) your advantage in mana or 2) your ability to use mana more effectively than the opponent. Since there is a very real possibility that you will not have this advantage and/or your opponent is of the same ability, I cannot consider saber throw enough of a counter to make backstab and backsweep excusable as they are.

 

The thing is, performing a BS has no cost. No ammo, no force from the pool. Both players can do it as much as they want, the same as they can with any other saber move. If you cannot buy the necessary saber stance, than neither can he. All of the "counters" I'm reading seem to have a cost associated with them, which a BS does not.

 

I can kill a backstabber with the rocket launcher too; no one bothers to post this, because it's obvious. Rocket ammo is sparse in the game, so to fire a rocket implies a high "cost" for the attack. Most players find it reasonable that a rocket should kill or maim with one hit.

 

Bolt ammo is a bit more common than rockets, so the repeater and flechette are not quite as deadly as the rocket launcher; they have a lower cost of usage. You can usually expect a rocket launcher to defeat a flechette user. However, the flechette gunner can turn the tables. He can dodge the rockets, and if so the rocket launcher guy was not spending his rockets wisely on a sure hit. Or the flechette guy pushes back the rockets, hurting his enemy; he just spent mana from his force pool to use the rockets.

 

So, most moves in the game have an associated cost. High-cost moves are easier to kill the enemy with. However, lower-cost moves are still viable as long as you can outwit the enemy. You are never, in most circumstances, required to use a high cost move to defeat a move of lower cost. Level 1 Absorb defeats level 3 dark side attacks. Level 1 Seeing defeats level 3 mind trick. If we want to maintain some semblance of balance and diverse strategy across the whole game, then we need to stick to this principle. At the most, you should be required to use a move of no more than equal cost and risk against an enemy's move.

 

The only "no-cost" attacks in the game are kicks and saber attacks. Kicks deplete force, but do not require it to perform the move. So, everything you can do in the game has a higher or equal "cost" compared to a saber attack. As it stands, backsweeps and backstabs will trump any other saber attack if executed properly. This requires you to use a higher cost move (i.e. saber throw, other Force, or a gun) to defeat them. IMO this goes against the design of the game. Perhaps more importantly, this forces matches to break down into backsweep vs. backsweep in NF Duel where no cost-associated moves are available.