Lime-Light Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 could be. Or the stormtroopers were all out partying the night before with the emporer with all his slave babes, so they were all hung over tired. They were just napping. And the screams were thier bladders exploding (ever seen a stormtrooper out of armor?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsong Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 OR have any of you thought that MAYBE starwars is't real and all lucas arts did was get some plastic armor and slap it on a couple of xtras? By the way, try not to care about the little stuff in SW movies, like the fact that the acting in Episode 1 and 2 sucked donkey balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyth'emos Posted June 30, 2002 Author Share Posted June 30, 2002 lol, I am pretty much just trying to justify the script, oh well I give up the ewoks shoulda all gotten killed and the rebellion shoulda lost the war right there.... that would have been a much beter ending anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 As has been pointed out, Stormtrooper armor is not ornamental. It stops projectile weapons cold. If you didn't catch that previous sentence, here's an encore: Stormtrooper armor stops projectile weapons cold. A soldier cocooned inside of Stormtrooper armor is not only safe from words, but sticks and stones as well. The only thing that can penetrate the white encasement is a super-heated blaster bolt. To argue that the kinetic energy imparted by a thrown, fist-sized stone is somehow comparable to a super-sonic bullet, which would still be ineffective against ST armor, is ridiculous. Interesting...you're getting this information from where, exactly? No offense but that's not how it looks in the movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 I've read it in numerious Star Wars reference books. Everything ranging from West End Games RPG source books, to the slew of books issues by LucasFilm that explains everything Star Wars. Look, you don't have to believe me - you appear not to - but even if we were to assume the material that ST armor is made of isn't exotic, but just simple off-the-shelf Earthly materials, it would still be sufficient to to deflect primitive stones and stick-arrows. But hey, you're apparently going to believe what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Vagabond I've read it in numerious Star Wars reference books. Everything ranging from West End Games RPG source books, to the slew of books issues by LucasFilm that explains everything Star Wars. Look, you don't have to believe me - you appear not to - but even if we were to assume the material that ST armor is made of isn't exotic, but just simple off-the-shelf Earthly materials, it would still be sufficient to to deflect primitive stones and stick-arrows. But hey, you're apparently going to believe what you want. No...I'm just going to assume that when I watched Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, the Ewoks won. That means that your information was: wrong. See? I'm basing my belief off of the ultimate canononical (new word, I'm sure ) source, whereas you are basing yours off of EU. So...you're apparently going to continue believing what you want too , and apparently that belief is that George Lucas sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Vestril No...I'm just going to assume that when I watched Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, the Ewoks won. That means that your information was: wrong. See? I'm basing my belief off of the ultimate canononical (new word, I'm sure ) source, whereas you are basing yours off of EU. So...you're apparently going to continue believing what you want too , and apparently that belief is that George Lucas sucks George Lucas does suck. I have a question. If that armor is sooo tough, how come Lazers kill the troopers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Knight Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by obi-wan13 George Lucas does suck. you are freaking retarded dude you wouldn't be on this fourm right now if it weren't for him all movies have mistakes and stupid stuff but overall it is the one of the best movies ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Vestril ...I'm just going to assume that when I watched Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, the Ewoks won...I'm basing my belief off of the ultimate canononical...source... As I've already said, before Jar Jar, the Ewok scene was Lucas' darkest hour. Yes, in the end we know that somehow Ewoks win the day. I'm here saying that according to the information contained in the reference materials distributed by LucasFilm, as well as plain common sense and elementary-school physics, they should not have. This is what I'm saying, not that they didn't Is this duel of wits complete? I feel as though I'm fencing with an unarmed opponent Just kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyth'emos Posted June 30, 2002 Author Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by obi-wan13 George Lucas does suck. I have a question. If that armor is sooo tough, how come Lazers kill the troopers? lasers are helluva lot more powerful than a bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Darth Knight you are freaking retarded dude you wouldn't be on this fourm right now if it weren't for him all movies have mistakes and stupid stuff but overall it is the one of the best movies ever woa......take a chill pill..................... =joke................. Don't freak out so easy........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Agreed. There's an especially cool scene - I believe it's in ESB, when the gang is fleeing Cloud City to the Falcon. They're out on the landing pad, and Leia turns and tags a Stormtrooper right in the chest, and this baseball-sized hole blows through his chest armor, hurling him backward. However, Star Wars isn't always consistent. In ROTJ, Leia gets shot in the arm by a Stormtrooper blaster, and her wound looks like a cross between a rash and a third-degree burn. And she seems perfectly fine, considering that she just got pegged by a bolt of super-heated plasma. Oh well - the heroes always seem to be stronger than your average red-shirt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obi Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Vagabond Agreed. There's an especially cool scene - I believe it's in ESB, when the gang is fleeing Cloud City to the Falcon. They're out on the landing pad, and Leia turns and tags a Stormtrooper right in the chest, and this baseball-sized hole blows through his chest armor, hurling him backward. However, Star Wars isn't always consistent. In ROTJ, Leia gets shot in the arm by a Stormtrooper blaster, and her wound looks like a cross between a rash and a third-degree burn. And she seems perfectly fine, considering that she just got pegged by a bolt of super-heated plasma. Oh well - the heroes always seem to be stronger than your average red-shirt Maybe those troopers had their blasters on "stun" when they shot Leia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 That, or they could have set their blaster to Rash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Vagabond As I've already said, before Jar Jar, the Ewok scene was Lucas' darkest hour. Yes, in the end we know that somehow Ewoks win the day. I'm here saying that according to the information contained in the reference materials distributed by LucasFilm, as well as plain common sense and elementary-school physics, they should not have. This is what I'm saying, not that they didn't Is this duel of wits complete? I feel as though I'm fencing with an unarmed opponent Just kidding Duel? You wanted to duel? I'm sorry, I thought we were just having fun...*gets serious* In any case, allow me to refute all possible arguments in one fell swoop--it was the will of the Force. Yup, that's right. Or possibly the Ewoks are stronger than they look. That's actually reasonably plausible, just because they're short, doesn't mean that they're weak. What's more I'm not sure how often Stormtroopers were killed by the big rocks, but getting knocked off balance while wearing a Helmet you can't see out of and trudging around on uneven ground is entirely possible. I think you underestimate the potential for damage there, and the ingeneuity displayed in many of the traps. I like to do something called suspending my disbelief, giving the movie the benefit of the doubt. If you think about that stuff, most movies come across looking like crap... Anyway, it's all just fun and if you sit around pouting about Jar Jar or Ewoks, when Jar Jar can actually be funny if you let him, and the Ewoks can actually be cute if you let them, it's less fun for you, and no one else Plus look at the real innacuracies, like why the heck would Padme leave Jar Jar, who is a freaking idiot, in charge when she left with Anakin?? I mean she must secretly be blonde... That, or they could have set their blaster to Rash That or they could have just grazed her (or was it a full on hit, I don't have my copies with me, at the moment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Do not get me started on he who cannot be named...Jar Jar Regarding the suspension of disbelief, I know all about that. I do acting on a regular basis, and fully comprehend the concept. However, despite all the fanciful technology displayed in the fantastical world of Star Wars, which I have no problem with whatsoever, seeing a better trained and equipped opponent so handily defeated by primitive natives just goes against common sense. I could have almost bought into the Ewok victory if their price in blood had been far higher. We saw, what, one Ewok die during the battle? One? While the Elite Imperial Shock Troops were slaughtered by stone-age natives? Were these the same Stormtroopers that so effectively decimated the Rebel Fleet Troopers at the beginning of Episode IV? The ROTJ troopers seemed lobotomized in comparison. And I'm glad you brought up their "...ingeneuity displayed in many of the traps...", as you so casually put it. Ya, I'm sure that since they just agreed to help with the assault a few hours prior, that they could have whipped those elaborate traps up so quickly. We're talking about suspending two gigantic logs on ropes, positioning them so that they're not only aligned vertically, but horizontally as well, and so that when released they'll meet at the same spot. Ya, that's a five minute job And then, how about we cut down 50+ huge logs, and quickly drag them to the top of a little hill, and set up a little mechanism so that we can release them all at once. Sure - no problem, I'll get that done in a jiff. And this is all assuming that they didn't just have those traps already set up, just in case of "emergency" I have no problem suspending my disbelief, but I do have a problem with violating just basic, common sense. Accepting fantastical technology - no problem. Doing in a matter of hours what would take days at a minimum - that's a bit of a stretch. I mean, why stop there? Why not just have the Ewoks develop blaster cannons overnight so they can fight the Empire? I assure you, my Disbelief Suspenders are in perfect working order. But I've thrown my Common Sense Suspenders in the garbage, where they belong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 We saw, what, one Ewok die during the battle? One? While the Elite Imperial Shock Troops were slaughtered by stone-age natives? Were these the same Stormtroopers that so effectively decimated the Rebel Fleet Troopers at the beginning of Episode IV? The ROTJ troopers seemed lobotomized in comparison. Yes...to show that they were taking losses. It would be rather silly to show many Ewoks getting slaughtered, since they're so cute. To me the one was enough, it showed that they're not invincible, and that others were probably dying. And I'm glad you brought up their "...ingeneuity displayed in many of the traps...", as you so casually put it. Ya, I'm sure that since they just agreed to help with the assault a few hours prior, that they could have whipped those elaborate traps up so quickly. We're talking about suspending two gigantic logs on ropes, positioning them so that they're not only aligned vertically, but horizontally as well, and so that when released they'll meet at the same spot. Ya, that's a five minute job And then, how about we cut down 50+ huge logs, and quickly drag them to the top of a little hill, and set up a little mechanism so that we can release them all at once. Sure - no problem, I'll get that done in a jiff. And this is all assuming that they didn't just have those traps already set up, just in case of "emergency" Assumption: it was one day later. You sure those common-sense suspenders made it all the way to the trash can? Who says the Imperials found Luke the night after, perhaps he spent some time distancing himself from the Ewoks and his friends so as not to arouse suspicions. What's more, who says the Emperor immediately ushered him into the Throne room, or that the Rebel fleet got there immediately. One large Lucas failing is his inability to show the passage of time in any understandable form. Example: it kind of looks like Luke spends about 2 days training on Dagobah, rather than the month or so he must have spent there. Oh, and in defense of the Ewoks, they are obviously used to moving huge amounts of lumber around, very accurately, since their cities are high atop the trees. It makes a certain amount of sense that they would only need a few days to get it up, especially if you imagine their numbers to be much higher (like TPM or AotC sized groups, which Lucas wouldn't have been able to manage back in the day). I have no problem suspending my disbelief, but I do have a problem with violating just basic, common sense. Accepting fantastical technology - no problem. Doing in a matter of hours what would take days at a minimum - that's a bit of a stretch. I mean, why stop there? Why not just have the Ewoks develop blaster cannons overnight so they can fight the Empire? I guess our disbelief suspension definitions are a little far from one another, to me it's accepting that somehow 'Seismic Charges' can work in space despite the lack of atmosphere, or accepting that the Ewoks could drub the stormies with rocks, despite probablities in the other direction. As to common sense suspenders...well my friend, I think you may have a second pair on if you can go to most movies and not be outraged, the average movie violates common sense all too many times, especially in the plot devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagabond Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Vestril: ...It would be rather silly to show many Ewoks getting slaughtered, since they're so cute. To me the one was enough, it showed that they're not invincible, and that others were probably dying... I disagree, for two reasons: 1. To me, the impression was that the Ewoks took very few losses, when in fact they should have paid a high price for throwing their lot in with the Rebels. 2. If it was made clear that the Ewoks suffered many casualties at the Battle of Endor, then I would have a high degree of respect for them. For them to die valiantly, and bravely, in the face of overwhelming odds, that is dramatic and moving. To show them routing a superior force with apparent impunity is more than my Disbelief Suspenders can hold, and comes across to me as silly and disingenuous. ...One large Lucas failing is his inability to show the passage of time in any understandable form... On this we agree. During Luke's training on Dagobah, the Millennium Falcon was presumably on a very slow, and prolonged sub-light voyage to Cloud City en route from the asteroid field in the Hoth System. This appeared to flash by, taking perhaps a day or two. But if one considers that the Falcon was traversing interstellar space without the benefit of a hyperdrive, then it becomes clear that the voyage must have taken a great deal of time - in reality, perhaps years. In Star Wars time, at least a couple days, but who really knows. Lucas doesn't even seem to consider such basic details. ...Oh, and in defense of the Ewoks, they are obviously used to moving huge amounts of lumber around, very accurately, since their cities are high atop the trees.... Very true. But I doubt they slapped their tree cities together in a day. I never implied that the Ewoks couldn't have created such elaborate traps - just that they couldn't have done it in the brief time available. I do agree - the seismic charges in space is a dumb idea, as is the Gungan sub traveling through the core of Naboo. When I heard that for the first time, I had to ask someone next to me, "Did they just say that they were going to travel through the core of the planet?" Very silly. ...I guess our disbelief suspension definitions are a little far from one another... As to how I suspend my disbelief, it depends on what the show is going for. If it's a movie like Airplane, then I expect silliness, and I enjoy it thoroughly. I'm able to fully suspend my disbelief in movies like this, because it's pure comedy. If it's a drama, then I expect lots of emotional conflict, and tough, believable, Human choices. I expect the people to behave and emote like real people conceivably could. I have a very narrow leash for Human actions and reactions in such movies. I do theatrical acting on a regular basis, and will evaluate such moves on how the characters' Goals, how they interact with the Other characters in the play, the Tactics they use, and their Expectations. This is commonly referred to as the GOTE sheet. If it's not believable, if it doesn't seem genuine and real, then the piece will typically fail miserably. If it's an action movie, then I usually give pretty good latitude. I still hate seeing people shoot thousands of rounds out of their guns without reloading, or people getting shot 5+ times before finally dying. But I'm typically fairly forgiving. If it's Sci-Fi, then I expect action, but I also expect some attempt to be believable. I understand that introducing technology and science that we've yet to understand in the real world is part of the package, and I'm totally cool with that. But when Sci-Fi totally obliterates basic science, that exceeds my threshold. For example, if a show has a Human bending a titanium rod with his bare hands, or floating around in the vacuum of space without dying - that I would have a problem with. Sound in space or driving a sub through a planet's core are other big blunders of basic science. With all "serious" shows, where the objectives really matter - most dramatic/action shows, I prefer that basic common sense be adhered to. If the Death Star is blown up, I don't want the Emperor to say, "No problem, we'll have a brand new one up and running tomorrow." That's completely unbelievable. Hope that clarifies things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyth'emos Posted June 30, 2002 Author Share Posted June 30, 2002 Did you guys miss the 10 minutes of AT-STs shooting at the Ewoks ??? and about 5 of them going flying with every shot ??? :atpt: :ewok: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestril Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Originally posted by Kyth'emos Did you guys miss the 10 minutes of AT-STs shooting at the Ewoks ??? and about 5 of them going flying with every shot ??? :atpt: :ewok: I only remember the one specific death...but if there were more I'm glad it strengthens my point of view... Which is why I want to add one last time that Lucas didn't really have the technology to show hundreds of Ewoks getting slaughtered, it was really small scale because that was all that was manageable (imagine trying to find enough people to fit into those Ewok costumes...). I think with a little disbelief suspension , you can assume safely that they took heavy losses. If you're crazy enough you can warp reality to fit your own needs, I say Anyway, I think I've made all the points I can make, and I think I understand your points , so mission accomplished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lime-Light Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Seismec Charges...I laughed out of my seat the first time I saw that scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunatic Jedi Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 I think there's a very satisfying explanation for the ineffectiveness of the stormtroopers armor... The Empire was a little to quick to invest in the whole "unbreakable plastic" craze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 It's easy to forget about the Ewok battle deaths, because we see very little "carnage" (corpses lying around). In the SW films, about the only carnage we see are the Jawas, the Stormtroopers, and that's pretty much it. AOTC changed this, because in TPM you barely saw anybody dead for more than a split second. If you watch the Endor battle closely, you will see a few ewoks disappear behind an explosion or have their bodies thrown back by it (or be shot at by troopers). Clearly those are deaths, just like you see Gungans getting killed in TPM, the camera just doesn't linger long enough for you to see a pile of bodies and stuff. The ewoks took HEAVY casualties in that battle. And it's true with all the cutting there is a lot we don't see (just like all the SW battles) but suffice to say you know that many of them did die. It is rather striking the way in which the Imperial troops scatter when the Ewoks first ambush. Are they running away in fear or scattering to try to attack them in the woods? Was this extreme incompetance or Imperial procedure? And sure, despite the ineffectivness of the trooper armor, it would still protect them more than the Ewok's fur. ; ) I've read other speculation that the Trooper armor is more like a bullet proof vest... a specialized device designed to protect the user from a specific type of attack, but not one that will prevent you from dying in all cases or even allow you to keep fighting. I always assumed that the rebels had simply upgraded their weapons to penetrate the armor, but the Ewok arrows penetrating does seem like a mistake, though I'd have to watch the battle again frame by frame to be sure that actually happens. Interstingly, in JK, the Troopers take about three hits to kill, and in JK2 they take about six (at least on Jedi Knight difficulty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JandoFett1842 Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 I AM A EWOK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RectalFury Posted July 1, 2002 Share Posted July 1, 2002 Now if you were GL, would you be more worried about whether or not the film was technically correct or would you be worried about how it looked? You would be more worried about how it looked. He had to show Ewoks defeating Stormtroopers in some way. He chose to show them throwing rocks and firing arrows that killed the stormtroopers without showing too much violence. He could have had the Ewoks use huge treemounted slingshots to hurl football sized rocks into the stormtroopers head, thereby smashing his brains in. That would have been way to violent for Star Wars. Instead he just made a quick scene showing a rock strike a stormtrooper, which caused him to go down. Sure, some things in the films make problems when you start to think about technical details, but would you rather have it be perfectly technically correct or would you rather have it presented the way it was meant to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.